Latex for writing books

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Re: Latex for writing books

Post by rossdv8 »

For anyone who considers Scribus a challenge, there are some (a very few) potential ideas here:
https://www.scribus-templates.net/

The thing is, anyone who has used MS Publisher for Windows should have no problem with Scribus. Publisher for Windows is more or less a copy of Express Publisher (originally a Non MS, Dos program). Almost all of the publishing programs are designed to output a form of PostScript file, originally PS for Mac, but now supported generically as Adobe's PDF.

So for Scribus, as long as Text is typed into a (resizeable) Text Frame, and images are inserted into a (resizeable) Image frame, just about anything can be put anywhere, and all sorts of changes can be made. Bleed areas (for book margins etc.) can be where your publisher wants them and books (and other documents) of almost any size and design and page length can be created.

A DTP program is not difficult to use, and with PDF being pretty universal these days, most publishers have no problem with files in that format. IN face, Scribus even lets you choose which PDF format you want to use (including Post Script - Encapsulated post Script).

Another advantage of a DTP program over using a Word Processor, is that a program like Scribus allows you to quickly rearrange things like dragging frames filled with text, or images OFF The Page and into the 'desk area' of the document, changing (scrolling in Scribus) to another page, and dragging said images or text frames back onto a different page.

I'm not trying to poke holes in Latex . . Just suggesting that Scribus is much more versatile that it appears at first glance, and that it is also very easy to use. Really easy, even for beginners.
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Re: Latex for writing books

Post by AZgl1800 »

I tried Scribus again today, all I wanted to do was load a UPS return label and print it out.

was a miserable failure, it is done, I am uninstalling it
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Re: Latex for writing books

Post by Dark Owl »

rossdv8 wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:13 pm Just suggesting that Scribus is much more versatile that it appears at first glance, and that it is also very easy to use. Really easy, even for beginners.
I'm sure it is, but first you have to adopt the right mind-set – and that's not the same mind-set as somebody who is steeped in WP. Versatility is not necessarily a virtue, for many tasks it is overkill.

Text editor: open it, type.

Word processor: open it, type, decide on presentation.

DTP: open it, get nowhere until you set up the frames defining the page layout.
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Re: Latex for writing books

Post by rossdv8 »

AZgl1500 wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:08 pm I tried Scribus again today, all I wanted to do was load a UPS return label and print it out.

was a miserable failure, it is done, I am uninstalling it
Then LaTEX is DEFINITELY not for you.

Scribus is not designed for 'loading things into'. It is designed for Creating things using Text and Images.
Think of Scribus as LibreOffice Draw - but much more powerful and easier to use.
The basics though are almost exactly LibreOffice Draw

So you could have far more easily 'created' a UPS label in Scribus, than trying to 'load' one from somewhere.
You just insert a text frame on the page
add the text you want, and make the font sizes etc look the way you want.

Of course, you said you 'wanted to load' a UPS label, so it was a scanned picture of an existing UPS label, in which case you simply follow the steps in the manual.

Insert an Image Frame on the page.
Drop an image into the image frame (or use the dialog to find one)
Right click and either fit the image to the frame, or fit the frame to the image

From there you might want to drag the frame and/or image to make it the size you want.

So far - exactly like LibreOffice Draw ! Or MS Publisher. Certainly a LOT easier than LaTEX.
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Re: Latex for writing books

Post by rossdv8 »

Dark Owl wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 3:32 am
rossdv8 wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:13 pm Just suggesting that Scribus is much more versatile that it appears at first glance, and that it is also very easy to use. Really easy, even for beginners.
I'm sure it is, but first you have to adopt the right mind-set – and that's not the same mind-set as somebody who is steeped in WP. Versatility is not necessarily a virtue, for many tasks it is overkill.

Text editor: open it, type.

Word processor: open it, type, decide on presentation.

DTP: open it, get nowhere until you set up the frames defining the page layout.
Which is my point, and why as a teacher, I'm suggesting a DTP program is probably the preferential option for the task at hand.
Any DTP program will be better at producing a document with lots of images and text, and outputting it as a consistent Post Script or PDF file for printing, than the average Word Processor. That said, actually writing the text part of the document in LibreOffice, saving it as an .odt file, then importing it into something like Scribus (I'm picking on Scribus here, because it is probably still the best DTP program available FREE for Linux at present) allows the flexibility of setting up a lot of document variables like Paragraph Styles, in the document, and importing those styles inclusively into Scribus.

However, Scribus allows a degree of document styling, so it is possible and quite normal to type all text in a simple text editor and import that - usually by copy - paste, or dragon droppings.

LaTEX on the other hand, goes back to the old days of programs like Word Perfect and other Word Processors that were one step up form a plain Text Ediitor. LaTex contains the ability to 'mark Up' text. Word Perfect, and subsequently, early MS Word (before Windows) allowed us to use Ctrl+b for BOLD and Ctrl+i for Italic and so on (as I mentioned in a previous post).

Now, as has been pointed out, Scribus takes a little time to read the manual and learn how to use it. LaTEX on the other hand takes a whole lot more time for the average person to understand it. I spent years re-teaching people with certificates from various colleges and Universities saying they were 'qualified' in MS Word, how to use MS Word to efficiently complete Word Processing tasks in work environments, especially in busy offices. I even had to teach our University lecturers in 2001 what they were getting completely wrong, and how to change the degree course they had so badly buggered up.

I was one of the earliest members of the HTML Writers' Guild, so I got used to working with HTML and other markup languages, then other web tools as they came and went. So I understand that for someone used to HTML and CSS, that learning LaTEX 'might' be a breeze.

For someone more used to WYSIWYG Word Processors, learning how to do layouts with Scribus could possibly make more sense, especially if a book could be divided into things called 'chapters'. That makes life a whole lot more useful for the writer of a 'text and loads of illustrations'. Unless the illustrations are in fact things like Mathematical expressions and symbols, in which case, LaTEX just might be worth the effort.
However the original post suggests otherwise, and scribus would almost certainly be a better choice in many respects just for mixed illustrations and text.

The original question was:
So I have been working for a long time now on a book with a TON of illustrations.

The problem is that text editors such as MS Word, Libreoffice Writer and my preferred one FreeOffice Textmaker move stuff around as the file gets saved over and over and grows bigger. I am very careful with pagebreaks and proper paragraphs but it seems rather inevitable.

Then I noticed that Latex is interesting since I am for now working with HTML and it seems similar. I mostly see it being suggested for scientific writing and complicated equations, so I am wondering if it is suitable for writing large illustrated documents. For just text I use Focuswriter, but it kind of falls short there.

The ideal of something with which I can just 'compile' to PDF and such is very appealing. Does anyone have any experience with this? Getting used to it and copying over my private website seems like it will take a lot of work so I would rather not waste it.
I agree that LaTEX is 'interesting'. And 'learning LaTEX' might just be an adventure in itself.
I would advise any of my students though, to think carefully about whether they want to spend their time learning something they will probably never use again - or writing their book.

Here are some links about Scribus:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... 6Hg3g_S6aN

For comparison, here are some links about LaTEX:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... 31D3EBC449

There are lots more available sites for almost all programs.
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Re: Latex for writing books

Post by spamegg »

I have a ton of experience with LaTeX. It's quite complicated. You don't need it for writing books, unless it's technical, scientific/mathematical where you need specific custom formulas/symbols etc. Here is an example of a math document I'm writing:
latex2.jpg
If you decide to give it a shot, I'm using MikTeX https://miktex.org/download it has instructions for Mint. The editor in the picture (TeXworks) comes with it.
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Re: Latex for writing books

Post by rossdv8 »

Re: Latex for writing books
Unread post by spamegg » Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:09 am

I have a ton of experience with LaTeX. It's quite complicated. You don't need it for writing books, unless it's technical, scientific/mathematical where you need specific custom formulas/symbols etc. Here is an example of a math document I'm writing:
A perfect illustration of the point.
LaTeX (and yes, I've been spelling it my own way) is brilliant for including formulae and other equations etc. in a document, that would otherwise be a nightmare 0i display correctly.Thanks :-)
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Re: Latex for writing books

Post by AZgl1800 »

rossdv8 wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:48 am
AZgl1500 wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:08 pm I tried Scribus again today, all I wanted to do was load a UPS return label and print it out.

was a miserable failure, it is done, I am uninstalling it
Then LaTEX is DEFINITELY not for you.

Scribus is not designed for 'loading things into'. It is designed for Creating things using Text and Images.
Think of Scribus as LibreOffice Draw - but much more powerful and easier to use.
The basics though are almost exactly LibreOffice Draw

So you could have far more easily 'created' a UPS label in Scribus, than trying to 'load' one from somewhere.
You just insert a text frame on the page
add the text you want, and make the font sizes etc look the way you want.

Of course, you said you 'wanted to load' a UPS label, so it was a scanned picture of an existing UPS label, in which case you simply follow the steps in the manual.
If I have to resort to an arcane manual, then I am done.

if it is not Intuitive, I am done...
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Re: Latex for writing books

Post by rossdv8 »

If I have to resort to an arcane manual, then I am done.

if it is not Intuitive, I am done...
My apologies. I posted an example of a manual in the form of YouTube tutorials, where one can 'see and do' if not used to the whole idea of using a Word Processor and them taking a step further into Desktop Publishing.

It is 'intuitive' to use a DTP program once the basic idea is understood. That is basically that that DTP is a 'aid to Publishing' something, where Word Processing is simply a 'What You See Is What You Get' Text Editor.

You can in fact use a Word Processor for quite complex documents, just as you could have used one for creating a UPS label.
On the other hand, for something like a 'book' that will eventually go to a publisher, a Desktop Publishing Program can be a better option. Note thast I didn't say it IS a better option - just that it 'can be'. LaTeX might probably be the weapon of choice on the other hand, for going into battle against a Scientific Thesis, particularly a Mathematical one.

It really comes down to the horses for courses, and personal comfort thing. For someone who is not conversant with MS Office or LibreOffice, creating and printing a UPS label is a serious challenge.
For someone who has used tools like MS Publisher, or LibreOffice Draw it is dead easy. In fact, I often use LibreOffice Draw to create and print Address Labels AND the return labels for packages, simply because it is 'there'. I am also guilty of using LibreOffice Writer for the same thing, unless I want to fit more than one label on a page. Then it is Draw.
However, I would not write something like a book in Draw or Writer.
For thgat I would normally use Scribus (or whatever DTP program I had), especially if it involved leaving things like 'gutters' for book binding on the finished output, and bleed areas defined by my publisher.

Anyway, this was originally a question about whether LaTEX would be suitable for writing a book with a ton of illustrations. Not about the virtues of Scribus itself. My Bad !

However, for anyone who still has no idea how Scribus works, there's a simple to follow Beginers' Guide here:
https://www.open-of-course.org/courses/ ... rial-1.pdf
It is Windows-centric, but as Scribus is cross-platform, that's not much of an issue.

For budding writers there are downloadable Templates and some instructions to guide you:
http://johnosterhout.com/basic-book-tem ... r-scribus/

http://johnosterhout.com/wp-content/upl ... _novel.zip
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Re: Latex for writing books

Post by AZgl1800 »

First: let me apologize to the OP for side-tracking this thread....

I have never bothered with any of the 'Draw' apps, in MS Office or LO.
I have no interest in Graphics, that is my daughter's #1 hobby/ interest.

My garbage is text writing in Word Processors and the occasional need to import an Image and position where I want it stay.

I'm not a tech writer, I just like to help people and write out "mini tutorials", slap in an image, and Post it up.

done.

for the book authors that I do Beta Proof reading for, they send it to me in MS Word usually.
One author likes to send stuff out in Adobe PDF, which I won't use, refuse to pay for something I have little use for. for this, I usually reboot my laptop into Win10 native mode, which has a licensed copy of MS Office Pro on it.

One book author asked if I would "proof read" all of his books, which have already been published, and are available on Amazon Kindle, which I happen to have a subscription to.

for him, I take a picture of my Kindle Paperwhite, edit the image with GIMP and draw white lines through the prose that does not contain the errors in grammar/spelling. I use Eraser for this, leaving the stuff to change more visible.

I create a "changes.txt" file for him from XED stating the line that needs to be fixed.
Then I do a copy paste of that to my Email program, attach the images and send it off.
he has been quite appreciative of that, and as the books are Digital, he uploads the corrected copies to Amazon immediately.
Job 1 done.

what do I get out of this?
satisfaction... period.

the UPS label?
I bought something on Amazon and it didn't work, and was returning it, they sent me an Image of the Return Label.
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Re: Latex for writing books

Post by absque fenestris »

A try with LibreOffice Draw: If it doesn't have to be a CMYK template for professional 4-color printing, LO Draw is really good and fast.
Honestly, I'm surprised at how good it is.
PDF and JPG are exported without any problems. PNG export is abysmal and thus the only weak point.

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Re: Latex for writing books

Post by Petermint »

I like the new model Bugatti shown in the previous post. So much more practical than the rubbish produced over that last few years. I would even use LaTeX if Bugatti gave me one of those cars. 8)
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Re: Latex for writing books

Post by rossdv8 »

One book author asked if I would "proof read" all of his books, which have already been published, and are available on Amazon Kindle, which I happen to have a subscription to.

for him, I take a picture of my Kindle Paperwhite, edit the image with GIMP and draw white lines through the prose that does not contain the errors in grammar/spelling. I use Eraser for this, leaving the stuff to change more visible.
Oh heavens - I'm going to drag this off topic a little further :oops:

If you ever need to edit one of his books that is published in .epub format, installing 'Calibre' in MInt, and opening the book in that will let you read the book, and Right Clicking on the name of a book in the list (of titles in a folder for example) then choosing 'Edit' at the bottom of the list will let you Edit it.

I would advise doing a Youtube search on how to use Calibre to edit a book before attempting it though.
An .epub is basically a combination HTML / .css file I suppose effectively similar to LaTex. I really must check to see if the same applies to a .mobi book.

There's a search function in Calibre > Edit, so you can do a search to find the exact spot you want to correct, then do the edit using the usual <b>BOLD</b and <i>ITALIC</I> markup. Saving then opening the book in an ebook reader will show the edits in place.

It might be handy to know that an .epub book can actually be edited fairly easily then saved again, although it is useful to have a basic working knowledge of HTML and how to use .css (Cascading Style Sheets).

Anyway, that brings the post full circle ! It's just a little Mint Trivia, because most people have no idea that a commercially published ebook can often be edited.
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Re: Latex for writing books

Post by AZgl1800 »

full circle indeed,

I have used Calibre and have it installed, but I don't actually proof the original ePub, I just find errors, photograph them, and email the changes to the authors.

I once used Calibre to copy a complete DVD of my son's with Biblical content that he did not want to loose, he listens to them in his car while traveling

I think it is called "PodCasts" ??
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Re: Latex for writing books

Post by absque fenestris »

How to write a book with tons of illustrations?
Software solutions seem to cause this or that ailment - can't be done, too cumbersome, only recommended for challenging formula collections ...

Maybe it's best to start from scratch - like this:

Image


Besides, there are ghostwriters and graphic designers and illustrators - they like to take over the practical execution of rather virtually existing books.
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Re: Latex for writing books

Post by rene »

Good grief. Why is, a, this thread still going and, b, viewed 2000+ times?
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Re: Latex for writing books

Post by rossdv8 »

rene wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 3:45 pm Good grief. Why is, a, this thread still going and, b, viewed 2000+ times?
Just a group of concerned people Rene, trying to encourage everyone to wear LaTEX ??
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Re: Latex for writing books

Post by AZgl1800 »

I have learned a very important thing about writing books to be published.

The "author" is actually a small part of the entire project.
True, without his/her imagination, and the manuscript being "finished", it is useless, unless he/she tried to publish it themselves, which some actually do via "FreeBooksy", and this usually ends up with a book full of grammar and spelling errors, so bad, that I just delete that book, and get another one to read.

the manuscript is proof read by a group of folks like me; "Beta Readers"
Some of us make changes in the actual manuscript and "bookmark" with the
Line Thru
the bad text, and then immediately we include the 'new text' with an Underscore. Others copy the text, and then send the changes to the author.. that makes his job harder.

when all of us Beta Readers are done, it is shipped off to an Editor, who then summarily makes some Major Changes of their own, because They Think they know more than all of use authors and Beta Proofers.... this has caused some bad feelings for some authors, but if they want to get accepted by the New York Times, Booksellers, Amazon, etc., they have no choice but to go thru the process.

and I have not even mentioned the Graphics Folks who then create the Book Cover, and the Meme that goes with each Title/chapter heading.

and I am a neophyte, having only been doing this for almost a year.
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Re: Latex for writing books

Post by Dark Owl »

What I don't understand is why the thread was started by "WriteF" but then "AZgl1500" took it over. Same person?
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Re: Latex for writing books

Post by Dark Owl »

rossdv8 wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:25 pm However, I would not write something like a book in Draw or Writer.
For thgat I would normally use Scribus (or whatever DTP program I had), especially if it involved leaving things like 'gutters' for book binding on the finished output, and bleed areas defined by my publisher.
For information: I created a 50-page booklet which was commercially printed and bound, with gutters, bleed, and page ordering, output to PDF, using OpenOffice Writer. It was easier for me to do that (being very experienced in WP) than stumble around with DTP for a one-off. I've printed, stapled, folded, and guillotined short runs at home too. I'm willing to explain the process if anyone wants me to (maybe elsewhere).

I accept WP doesn't offer the full range of options that DTP has – but if it comes to positioning elements on a page using frames (as per setting up mailing labels), WP can do that just the same (just not flow from one frame to another). No need to reach for Draw even.
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