Getting applications - What a mess!

[MikeNavy]

Hi,
I am a rather happy user of Linux Mint Mate 19.3 Tricia, 64 bits, on an ASUS G74SX laptop.
Rather, because some apps in the distro are obsolete ones, and despite all my efforts I cannot get all my favorite apps running on Linux Mint and I am obliged to have some running on Windows 10.

Some explanations:
- Here are some obsolete apps in the distro, with simple ways to have an up-to-date version:
* Thunderbird, 68.10 available in the distro, current is 78.10.1; solution: uninstall obsolete version, download up-to-date one from thunderbird.net and copy it in your home; launch it and import your old profile.
* LibreOffice, 6.07 available in the distro; still versions are 6.4.7 and 7.0.5, dev version is 7.1.3; solution: uninstall obsolete version, download the one you want from libreoffice.org, untar debs, then "dpkg -i *.deb" in the directory where you untared them.
* Youtube-dl, the version available in the distro is useless, it is several years old, while youtube-dl is updated twice a month; go to youtube-dl website and follow instructions to download and update it.
* Calibre, the version available in the distro is 3.21, while up-to-date one is 5.17; go to Calibre website and follow instructions to download and update it.
[...]
- Here are some obsolete or unavailable apps in the distro, with difficult way or no way to have an up-to-date version:
* Gimp, the version available in the distro is 2.8.2, while up-to-date one is 2.10.24; all linux solutions are unsatisfactory:
Gimp 2.10.24 is available from Gimp website as a flatpak, or from Gnu Guix; in both case, you have to install a few Gigabytes of files that "double" your distro files; moreover, no plgin is available (linux plugins for Gimp have been officially abandoned years ago, if you want plugins use 2.8.2).
Gimp 2.10.24 is also available as an unofficial appimage, with a reduced set of plugins; but, as appimage are disk images, ittakes a lot of time to launch.
Solution is to use 2.10.24 version for windows, official version or Partha's one, and compiled plugins from Partha, Alajacom and G'MIC, plus old scripts stilla available and running.
*Avidemux, not available in the distro; available as appimage, slow launch, 2.76 was running OK but 2.78 does not launch; solution, use 2.78 on Windows.
* Handbrake, the version available in the distro is 1.1.0; the "official ppa" offers 1.2.2 version for bionic / Tricia but offers 1.3.3 latest revision for ubuntu 20.x only; hanbrake is available as Gnu Guix, with the inconvenience to instal a few gigabytes; solution: use hanbrake 1.3.3 on Windows.
* VLC, the version available in the distro is 3.0.8 while the latest one is 3.1.2; 3.1.2 is officially available as as a snap, with the inconvenience of a (very) slow launch; solution: use VLC 3.1.2 on Windows.
[...]

Looking for Linux solutions:
Before choosing Windows, I have looked at several solutions for linux.
Flatpak:
You install a few gigabytes of core files, then flatpak packaged apps; inconvenience: not all apps exist on flatpak, huge disk growth.
Gnu Guix:
You install Gnu Guix package manager over your distro, a few gigabytes, then the apps you need; more than 16,000 Open-Source apps available, up-to-date, all the apps I use are available! Inconvenience: huge growth of disk use, install in an hidden root subdirectory, no uninstall procedure (!), apps dont't appear in launch menu (some tricks available).
Homebrew / Linuxbrew:
Available for MacOS and Linux; it takes less place on the disk; however, most of apps are available as "casks" (--> MacOS) and the number of formulae (install scripts) for linux is very reduced; as usual with brew, still some fatal errors when installing; "brew update" and "brew doctor" don't correct the errors; uninstall procedure fails, but since I had chosen the option to install homebrew in my home, I had just to delete the directory.
Snap:
You need to install (or have preinstalled) snapd, core, gnome... and then you install snaps; not all the apps are available as snaps, not all are up-to-date; launch is slow to very slow.
Appimage:
It is similar to snap (the app and all its dependencies are packaged in a squash-fs image disk); no need to install anything else than the app; launch is slow to very slow (I still use one or two apps as appimages).

Windows solution:
Wine:
The version available in the distro is obsolete, but easy to install; the version from official website is up-to-date, but more difficult to install; a warning prevented me to attempt to install Wine: "Wine for Ubuntu is not completely achieved, you cannot install both 32 and 64 bits versions". If you want to play both 32 and 64 bits windows apps versions, there is page of "how-to", and in summary you have to make some changes in the source, then compile two different versions of Wine... Sorry, not for me!
Virtual Box:
Though officially recommended by Linux Mint, Virtual Box has a big defect, it is not able to simulate a recent version of OpenGL (no fresher than 2.1), and the apps I want to use on Windows need more recent OpenGL.
VMware Workstation Player
This is the solution I used, VMware Workstation Player 16.x for Linux (freeware), with an OEM license of Windows 10 Pro (less than 15 $). On linux I have OpenGL 4.6, with an Nvidia Gefore GTX 560M, and VMware simulates OpenGL 4.5 on Windows guest. To install VMware:
downlaod the latest version of VMware Workstation Player from VMware website, then
sudo apt install gcc build-essential -y
cd downloads
export LC_ALL=C <-- if you forget this, installation fails! (undocumented in VMware install procedure or help)
sudo ./VMware-Player*
Once VMware PLayer installed, install Windows from an ISO image, downloaded from Microsoft; install is assisted by VMware Player and very easy (easier than with Virtual Box), and you use the OEM license number you bought to register Windows.

Conclusion:
I am still happy with Linux Mint 19.3.
I don't well understand what "long term support" means, with such a lot of obsolete apps in the distro. I guess the kernel and GNU utilities are updated regularly, but this is not the case for all programs.
I am obliged to use Windows apps, in a virtual machine, and I have more and more apps running on Windows, because I don't find a satisfactory way to have them running on Linux.
Linux packages are a mess: debs (and others such as rpms...), flatpaks, snaps, gnu guixes, appimages, brew formulae...
Linux suffers from a VERY BIG problem: an app needs to run with its own versions of the needed packages, and several versions of the same package CANNOT exist on a system, unless in different package managers (distro, flatpak, Gnu Guix, linuxbrew...) installed on the same system.
[Windows has solved the problem:
- There is a conductor, and ONE distro.
- Programs running on old versions of Windows can be launched on a compatible way (Win98, XP, 7...) even on Windows 10.
- Different versions of dlls (<=> libraries on Linux) can exist on the same system, during the installation of a program coming with its old dlls, dlls are stored by Windows, associated to a program, and launched when necessary.]

[spamegg]

Hey there! I hope you don't misunderstand my intention as mean or hostile. Just sharing my opinion!

I think your views are quite common among newcomers from Windows.

I don't well understand what "long term support" means, with such a lot of obsolete apps in the distro.

I think Mint or other Ubuntu LTS based distros may not be for you. Maybe try a "rolling distro" like Arch or Manjaro? A lot of us see this situation differently. We don't consider these apps "obsolete"; just stable, while maybe lacking the latest (potentially breaking) features but still receiving important security updates. Constantly getting the latest versions is a Windows habit; and there are other distros for this.

I've had the exact opposite experience than yours: since switching from Windows, not dealing with version updates, not having to download stuff from the internet and installing them manually, while also not worrying about security/viruses/malware, and knowing I'm supported for a long, long time (unlike Microsoft who can ditch support for its users whenever it wants) has been an extremely peaceful and freeing experience.

Linux is not Windows, and it's not for everyone.

I am obliged to use Windows apps, in a virtual machine, and I have more and more apps running on Windows, because I don't find a satisfactory way to have them running on Linux.

I don't mean to be rude, but Linux is not Windows and you expect it to be like Windows.
https://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm
You are not obliged to run anything on Linux unless you want to. If it's not satisfactory, that's your preference, which is perfectly fine of course. To each their own. There are also a lot of unsatisfactory apps on Windows that are better on Linux (this is my view).

However if you really want to switch to Linux, you might benefit from a shift in mentality. Try Linux alternatives for the apps. If something doesn't work, report it. Maybe add a feature. Support devs. You're not paying any money for it so if you want something done, you gotta get involved. This is the spirit of FOSS.

Linux packages are a mess: debs (and others such as rpms...), flatpaks, snaps, gnu guixes, appimages, brew formulae...

I think this is subjective. All the ones except debs are optional and voluntary. I don't use Flatpak, Snap, Guix, AppImage or Brew at all. But yes, backwards compatibility is a huge issue and I totally agree there.

Linux suffers from a VERY BIG problem: an app needs to run with its own versions of the needed packages, and several versions of the same package CANNOT exist on a system

Totally AGREED! Linux has AWFUL backwards compatibility, so people came up with a lot of patchwork solutions like Flatpak, Snap, AppImage. But once again, this is optional and only an issue if you don't like the LTS versions of apps. I don't use them and I'm fine.

Windows has solved the problem:
- There is a conductor, and ONE distro.

This is subjective, and there are actually some influential Linux supporters who share this view, like Bryan Lunduke in his famous "Linux Sucks!" talks. Look it up! You might like him.
I think that having many distros that cater to different individual tastes is also a great thing. Once again, I don't mean to sound like an elitist asshole, but Linux is not for everyone. (I used Windows from mid-90s until 2019 by the way.)

I don't think it's fair to compare the Windows monopoly that's been going on for decades, which you pay for by the way, to free (both in monetary and freedom sense) Linux distros made by enthusiasts. Even hardware manufacturers don't give a damn about us. Think about it: Microsoft is a multi-billion dollar behemoth while Mint devs get $25,000 in monthly donations at most. Is it fair to say that Windows is a "distro"?

Moreover having "one distro" also comes with its share of problems, such as control over users, lack of freedom and privacy, and so on. Ubuntu started becoming the "one distro" in the Linux world and they got a lot of flak for some of their freedom/privacy violations and got a lot of hatred. People even started calling Ubuntu "the Windows of the Linux world." Now, whether these criticisms are right or wrong can be debated, and certainly Ubuntu has done a TON for Linux, but there is certainly an issue there.

Once again, Linux users are different than Windows users. They care about different things.

- Programs running on old versions of Windows can be launched on a compatible way (Win98, XP, 7...) even on Windows 10.

Once again, totally AGREED! Windows has EXCELLENT backwards compatibility.

Best, - spamegg

[absque fenestris]

Why should satisfied Windows 10 users actually switch to any Linux? And even to Mint ..?
If anything, then to a proper rolling release - the usual excitement is maintained and you also have the best and newest and fastest applications to choose from - just as usual ...

[MikeNavy]

Spamegg and absque fenestris, thank you for your answers.

I understand the difference between rolling and LTS distros.
However, I don't understand what is the reason to choose to update or not a a software in a LTS distro.
Coming back to my examples, LibreOffice 6.0.7 is really obsolete and no longer maintained. The stable version of LibreOffice is 6.4.7 (four generations between 6.0 and 6.4), while the development version is 7.0.5 (near stable) and the edge version is 7.1.3.
To use 6.0.7 version is not only to have less functionalities (like a lot of people I use some percents only of what LibreOffice can do) but also to take the risk to have security problems with unpatched holes.
It is the same when using Thunderbird 68.10, officially no longer maintained.

When I look at LibreOffice, Thunderbird or Firefox as they are released by their developers on their websites, it seems that they arrive to make debs that work on any version of Linux Mint / Ubuntu. They are probably not optimized for a given distro, but they work. Is there a compilation trick t get that compatibility?
It seems that to avoid to compile several versions of the same software, developers prefer to produce one Snap, or one Flatpak, or one Appimage than several debs, though The Document Foundation and Mozilla show it is possible to have "universal" debs. Typical example of this trend is Chromium, still compiled by Canonical for Ubuntu 16.04 and 18.04 (with 5 architectures for each version of Ubuntu), but delivered as a snap for Ubuntu 20.x (fortunately, for Linux Mint 20.x users, Linux Mint compile it)

I have been using computers for long (the first computer I used had ferro-magnetic tores technology RAM...). I have used mainframes (at the time of punched cards), then VAX VMS and a lot of personal computers with MS-DOS, GEM, Windows (1, 2, 3.0, 3.1, 3.11, 95, 98, all NT versions, 2000, XP, 7, 10), MacOS (from Leopard to Catalina), several versions of Linux Mint.
With time, I use more and more Open Source programs. The main ones I used were born on Linux and have been further ported to Windows, and it is now much easier to find a recent / complete version of them on Windows than on Linux! Best example is Gimp: while all plugins have been abandoned for Linux, some volunteers have kept them living on Windows.
I expected to find some programs available only for Windows, but I didn't expect to find better versions of Linux born programs on Windows...

[absque fenestris]

With Linux Mint 20.0 Cinnamon, for example, LibreOffice 6.4.2.7. and GIMP 2.10.18 running.
Every now and then, out of curiosity, I download an AppImage from the parade horses, but I've never come across anything fundamentally earth-shattering.
Even under Windows 10, no application that was something new has shaken me up to now.

My perception may be fundamentally different from yours, but the best LibreOffice - by my standards - is LO 3.6 under Mac OSX - everything works there, a fabulous font management, fine typographic correction by using an extension, excellent PDFs via Ghostscript etc. pp. Year 2012 or 2013 and never achieved again.
A colleague still works with Excel 1998 under Mac OS 9 and finds it unmatched.
Another favorite would be ClarisWorks (AppleWorks) under the old Mac OS: small, dirty and fast - completely sufficient for the tax return and accounting of my mini one-man business - until now. Why, because it's stupidly quick and easy.
My preferred CAD / modeling program is from 1999. In terms of functionality and user logic, it has never been achieved again and no replacement has been found.
As I said, these are my standards. Given today's computing power, many new applications are simply bad.

And if, with the current Mint Cinnamon, I had to name a program that has it all, it would be Ghostscript: my niece benefits from the fact that her uncle uses a terminal command to reduce her macOS InDesign-PDF-data to reasonable sizes ...

[Flemur]

Hi,
I am a rather happy user of Linux Mint Mate 19.3

If, for some reason you don't specify, you want the latest versions of linux software, then don't use an older version of a distro which doesn't use the latest versions (namely Mint); as spamegg said, use Arch or whatever.

but, as appimage are disk images, it [gimp] takes a lot of time to launch.

Gimp 2.10 app-image takes a big 4 seconds from '$ gimp' to GUI on my low-end machine.

[mikeflan]

I know this is not about me, but I'm going to tell you my experience anyway.
I am about 16 months on LM 19.3 - straight from windows.

Thunderbird, 68.10 available in the distro

I use TB 68.10.0. If there was an update I would be leary of installing it.

LibreOffice, 6.07 available in the distro

I use LO 6.0.7.3. I do need to update, but that version works pretty well, except for the time it takes to open the files, and a few other things.

Youtube-dl, the version available in the distro is useless

I use 2021-04-07 from Software Manager. I don't use this program much, but when I do it has worked perfectly so far. Maybe I am unaware of what I am missing - blissfully ignorant.

Gimp, the version available in the distro is 2.8.2

I use Gimp 2.8.22. Very often. I believe it has only been obtained from Software Manager and then updated. I use Gimp all the time (very often) and I really like it, but I am not a heavy-weight graphics user.

Avidemux, not available in the distro

Yes it is. I have 2.7.8 Flatpak installed from Software Manager. I have not used it yet.

VLC, the version available in the distro is 3.0.8

I use VLC 3.0.8. It works for my Swann video camera videos, which is mostly what I use it for. Again, blissfully ignorant.

That is just a sampling.

I am completely the opposite of you. I dread updating. I recently updated FreeFileSync to 11.9. Thankfully I still have FFS 11.3, because I like it better. I'm still giving 11.9 a chance (I am using it), but I don't like it as well.

I typically just stick with what I have for critical applications. I can't afford to run down a problem with the upgraded version.

The stable version of LibreOffice is 6.4.7

Thanks for pointing that out. I am going to have to bite the bullet and make an upgrade there. But you can bet I will be very cautious.

[Portreve]

I'll also preface this post with the disclaimer that no offense is intended.

The GNU+Linux ecosystem and community are each different in a variety of ways from the ecosystems and communities of macOS and Windows. This is by choice. Not that you're saying "Linux should be just like Windows", MikeNavy, because you aren't, but you're nevertheless running afoul of some of the upshots of that difference.

Do GNU+Linux users prefer running older/out-of-date versions of programs? Not especially. However, for the most part we prefer stability and known quantity over the latest and greatest thing. Do all GNU+Linux users feel exactly this way? No; of course not. There are a variety of ways (a lot of which you've described above) to get around this. Moreover, running the latest version of a distro often fixes this issue, or at least gets you to the point of having support for newer versions.

I easily could say “I use Google's Gmail web interface so I don't care about what version of Thunderbird is available.” I could, but I won't, not just because that would be blatantly rude and I don't wish to be rude, but also because wanting to use a dedicated email client is a legitimate thing, and in many cases it could also be the only way for an individual to get their email. Moreover, everybody has different preferences, and how hypocritical would it be to criticize freedom of choice as a user of a platform for which such a freedom is a major priority?

Other distros, whether rolling or not, prioritize having the latest and greatest. Your best bet would be to do some research in that regard, maybe even ask others here on LMF, and I'll bet you'll get some really good pointers.

My priority is stability. I prize that above pretty much everything else, except for security. As someone who, for example, makes regular and somewhat extensive use of Libre Office at least 5 days a week because of my job, I've yet to find any meaningful differences between LO 5, 6, or 7. Lots of cosmetic differences, of course, and obviously there are feature differences, but I regularly bounce between whole version release versions literally every day, and (for me) it's not that big of a deal.

I can empathize with you on GIMP. 2.10 was a significant jump in a number of respects. However, I was more interested in getting past some early bugginess, and now that that's been resolved, I'm good with the (arguably older) version I've got.

Fedora, for example, rings later versions than we do in LM. Arch probably does. However, there's a difference in philosophy between LM and those distros. Heck, there's differences in philosophy between us and our eventual, ultimate parent Debian. Whether it's a program, a plugin, or a codec, if it's not libre, they won't include it. I mean, they won't actively stop you from installing stuff (they're not Apple or Microsoft, for goodness' sake) but they won't just hand you that stuff. Ubuntu (our immediate upstream parent) and LM will include non-free components because we regard rounding out the functionality of a distro as important.

[Petermint]

On LM 19, I switched to the appimage version of some applications to get the latest release. Appimage startup was fast. I then upgraded to LM 20 to get across the board updated applications. You have the same choice. It was easier than the Windows problem I had when I ran Windows for specific Microsoft applications required for one project. The latest release of the Microsoft applications were available for the version of Windows I had, 8.1, but they refused to install and work together. I had to downgrade Windows to the slow difficult Windows 10.

If the app image startup is slow, you have a resource limitation that will slow down the newer version of many applications because newer versions are bigger. Long term, you might need more memory or an upgrade from disk to SSD or a similar change. If you use Cinnamon, switch effects off, the same as you would in Windows when resources are limited.

[MikeNavy]

Thank you all for your answers.

Among the "non deb" packages, I still use some appimages: at least, you are not obliged to install gigabytes of extra stuff to have them work.

My computer is a bit old but not slow: i7 microprocessor, 16 GB RAM, 1TB SSD; appimages launch is slower because it is a disk image (squash-fs, like snaps) that needs to be mounted before the app runs.

There are three reasons to update an app:
- new functions, for example Gimp 2.10 is more powerful than 2.8 (I know that an unofficial appimage of Gimp 2.10.x is available on github with a reduced set of plugins; but on Windows, several tens of compiled plugins are available, unofficially maintained by Aljacom; this is more a Gimp problem than a Linux / Windows pros and cons).
- bug corrections; any new version corrects bugs from the former one (and adds its own new bugs...).
- security risks; when app is no longer maintained, there is a time-increasing risk of unpatched security holes; this risk is very high for apps whose function is to connect to internet (browsers, mail clients), lower for apps that can connect to internet but for which it is not the main function (LibreOffice, any app capable to download things from internet or read an help from internet), and low for apps non connecting to internet.
That's why I don't understand people still using Thunderbird 68.10 (the one offered in LinuxMint 19.3): it has been released in July 2020, it is no longer maintained, there has been 28 (!) releases of Thunderbird after 68.10. Thunderbird should be updated at each release, like browsers, because internet is a constantly changing jungle. And for me it seems critical to do it.

LinuxMint 19.3 is not my 1st attempt in using it: I have installed Linux Mint versions on some five computers in 10 years; however it is the 1st time I have used Mint as my principal OS for long (1 year and half now, I have installed 19.2 than updated to 19.3). Before using it on a regular basis, I may have misunderstood what "Long Term Support" meant; for me it was a distro regularly updated until its end of life. But what is regularly updated is kernel, GNU packages, drivers, browsers (still lately, one or two weeks; for example I use Chromium 90.4430.93, compiled by Canonical on 30 April, and still not available in Ubuntu 18.04 / Mint 19.03, where the latest available is 90.4430.72, two releases late), and "some apps" for "some time" (VLC has been regularly updated up to 3.0.8, then updates stopped; Thunderbird has been updated up to 68.10 than updates stopped). I don't see the rationale in this (what app to update? will the updates last? when will updates stop?), except maybe too many time needed to package the updates and not enough resources to do it.

Since I like Linux Mint install (better than Ubuntu, you need to install a lot of extra things like drivers or any proprietary package you need), I will probably try Linux Mint Debian edition, it is a rolling one. I guess apps will be more recent, with the risk of some instability (In an ideal world, I would like stable distro basis, with fresh "stable" apps, not edge apps with instable distro basis). Are they some people using it and what is their feedback?

If not, Archlinux has been often mentioned as a good office distro. Some feedback ?

And I have still an open question: how do the developers manage to deliver "universal" debs or binaries, working on any version of Ubuntu / Mint ? (I think of LibreOffice, Firefox, Thunderbird, XnView MP, Calibre, FreeFileSync, as available from their websites...). Why isn't this solution the general one?

Regards,

MikeNavy

[RIH]

Since I like Linux Mint install (better than Ubuntu, you need to install a lot of extra things like drivers or any proprietary package you need), I will probably try Linux Mint Debian edition, it is a rolling one. I guess apps will be more recent, with the risk of some instability (In an ideal world, I would like stable distro basis, with fresh "stable" apps, not edge apps with instable distro basis). Are they some people using it and what is their feedback?

In general LMDE is a distribution that "lives" on the fact that it is rock solid.
Application versions will be way, way behind the latest & greatest that the application is now touting..
From my understanding if you want cutting edge stuff then it has to be a rolling release distribution, like
https://www.tecmint.com/best-rolling-re ... ributions/

This is not Mint's aim...

[mikeflan]

Security risks; when app is no longer maintained, there is a time-increasing risk of unpatched security holes; this risk is very high for apps whose function is to connect to internet (browsers, mail clients)

You are generally right in what you say above, except IMO for "this risk is very high". The risk is actually very low for years after maintenance stops on most applications for somebody like me who doesn't run Java Script (except selectively), and doesn't accept cookies (OK, I agree you can accept cookies - it is no big deal, but I still don't do it), and won't even click on a tracking link, even though I know that is safe too. I'm not going to make it easy for them. I have been doing computers for 45 years now, and doing "real computers" since about 1992. And I have personally been infected by viruses (on windows only) exactly 3 times. None of them were the bad ransomware attack, which interestingly we did get at work. Only one required me to reinstall my OS. None hurt real bad since I backup more than anyone you know. I literally have about 11 backups of my system nowadays! And keep in mind that even on windows I refuse to run antivirus. That's right - I have not run antivirus of any kind in more than 20 years of using windows. It's simply not needed unless you have kids or stupid people using your computer.

People fill their time how they choose. Some people distro hop. Some play computer games. Others, like me, spend inordinate amounts of time on computer programming. Worrying about computer security isn't the worst thing you can do. But if you have other things to do on the computer, just get to your comfort level and more forward with those other things. I feel fairly secure in telling people that all versions of LM are very secure as they come.