HP Compaq 8000 Elite CMT - upgrade to better M/B with faster CPU

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MintDude2013
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HP Compaq 8000 Elite CMT - upgrade to better M/B with faster CPU

Post by MintDude2013 »

Hi there:

I have a rather ancient computer, an 2013AD :wink: HP Compaq 8000 Elite CMT with an HP 536883-001 (2009?) M/B (socket LGA775).

Can someone recommend a newer M/B plus a CPU, price range between $340 and $400. I would like to upgrade to make it Linux Mint 20 ready :).

Many thanks!

MintDude aka John
sarge816
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Re: HP Compaq 8000 Elite CMT - upgrade to better M/B with faster CPU

Post by sarge816 »

You might have a hard time upgrading the motherboard, as Compaq and other oem pc makers like using proprietary motherboards that don't necessarily fit in standard ATX cases. If it is a standard ATX or micro ATX then you have lots of options. You didn't post what the specs are either, it might be just fine as is. Some of those 8000s had Core2 Duos and Quads in them, and if you have at least 4GB RAM and an SSD you might not need an upgrade. If you haven't gotten an SSD, do yourself a favor and spend $40 or so on one that is 256GB+ in size - it will feel like a new computer. I also highly recommend Xfce flavor Mint for older machines like yours.
MintDude2013
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HP Compaq 8000 Elite CMT - upgrade to better M/B with faster CPU

Post by MintDude2013 »

Hi Sarge816:

Many thanks for your reply.

After I'd received your reply, I remembered that both my HP and its M/B are actually from 2009 (close to prehistoric, I guess :wink:). Plus I forgot to mention that right now I'm using a more recent HP PC, an 2014 Elitedesk 800 G1.

I also remember that after I'd installed LM18 in my 'ancient' 8000 Elite it was really slow and created a bunch of problems. That's why I got the newer HP.

Now I'm thinking about using the 8000 Elite again because I can put in one more HDD as in the Elitedesk 800.

Would it be a good idea switch M/Bs, i.e. put the M/B of the Elitedesk 800 G1 into my 8000 Elite besides getting an SSD?

Many thanks.

MintDude
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Re: HP Compaq 8000 Elite CMT - upgrade to better M/B with faster CPU

Post by antikythera »

Essentially without some major metal fabrication work you can't switch them.

The 2009 board is standard mATX form factor but it has non-standard PSU connections. The newer board is not standard form factor, it is uses MXM form factor which is normally found in laptops to allow clearance for optical and HDD/SSD bays.
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MintDude2013
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HP Compaq 8000 Elite CMT - upgrade to better M/B with faster CPU

Post by MintDude2013 »

Hi Antikythera:

Thank you for your feedback. Not exactly what I wanted to hear :), but you definitely know your stuff 8)!

Many thanks again!

MintDude
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HP Compaq 8000 Elite CMT - upgrade to better M/B with faster CPU

Post by MintDude2013 »

Hi Antikythera and Sarge816:

I still haven't given up on upgrading my ancient HP PC Compaq 8000 Elite CMT.

First, maybe a repeat of its specs plus those I didn't mention:
- Mainboard (2009) HP 536883-001 (I'm sorry, the picture isn't very good):
HP PC Motherboard.jpg
- CPU Intel Pentium E8400 3.0GHz Quad (?) Core
- Socket LGA775 ZIF (Socket T)
- P/S 320W (continuously)
- SATA sockets: 5 (2 in one group, 3 in another group).

Here's several questions I hope you won't mind helping me with:
- Apparently the M/B needs at least one SATA 3 interface for the SSD, according to a friend of mine. And according to Wikipedia the SATA 3.0 standard was released on May 27, 2009, which probably means that my 2009 Compaq 8000 Elite supports only SATA 2.6. Is there a big difference in speed between say, SATA 2.6 and SATA 3 or is it the same as between SATA 2.0 and SATA 3.0, i.e. 3Gb/s vs. 6Gb/s? If it's only 3Gb/s, will it still be (much) faster than with a regular HDD? Anyhow and according to the Manual, it doesn't look like it supports SATA 3: SATA/eSATA Interfaces: These systems provide two, three, or four serial ATA (SATA) interfaces that support transfer rates up to 3.0 Gb/s and RAID data protection functionality. The SFF and CMT form factors can also support an external SATA (eSATA) device through an optional bracket/cable assembly. Just in case, here's the HP Customer Support - Knowledge Base.

- Internal SSDs look like external HDDs to me, not like internal ones. How do I put one in my Compaq 8000 Elite, do I need some sort of housing besides adapter cables?

- As for RAM, obviously I can't plug in different sizes (e.g. 2Gb and 3GB) but same-size RAM from different manufacturers should be OK!? Again according to the manual, apparently the Memory subsystem supports DDR3-1333 modules, so probably nothing higher or faster?!

- Also, what about things like the co-processor, cache size, base frequency, etc? A friend of mine mentioned all these things, most of which I'd never heard about... As for the co-processor, is that maybe the Intel Q45 GMCH?

- Last but not least, do I really need a faster CPU if I have an SSD and 12Gb or 16Gb of DDR3 RAM in my machine? My Elitedesk 800 G1, which I'm using right now, only has 8Gb of RAM 3, usage of which usually is from around 75% to way over 80%, although I don't think I'm using any really resource hugging programs. So, having a bit more RAM in my ''big HP' seems like a good idea. Anyway, I googled for a list of CPUs for socket LGA 775: 7 Best LGA 775 CPU: Exploring Popular Picks of 2020. My friend says that the 4x400 MHz Quadpumped with FSB1600 MHz is the fastest. If a faster CPU seems like a good idea, what would you recommend?

I'm sorry for all my questions :(. Up until now I never really considered using SSDs, that's why my knowledge is very limited in that area.

I'm sorry this is a rather long post with lots of questions ! I hope I haven't forgotten anything important...

Thanks so much!

MintDude
antikythera
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Re: HP Compaq 8000 Elite CMT - upgrade to better M/B with faster CPU

Post by antikythera »

Regarding the SSD query, it will still be faster than an old mechanical HDD even if restricted to 3Gb/s bandwidth which is indeed the maximum for the chipset. They may be smaller but take normal SATA power and data cables.

You can buy an adaptor bracket to convert a 3.5" HDD bay for one or two SSD drives, some hobby builders just use duct tape instead if the system is for their own use only. There are no moving parts and generally heat is not an issue either for a SATA SSD, so all you have to do is secure them somewhere in the case and make sure the cables are fitted snugly.

Yes it's an Intel Q45 chipset, I would stick with the processor you have and add 8GB RAM (2x4GB matched modules for dual channel interleaved mode).
Don't take life so seriously, nobody gets out alive anyway!
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rene
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Re: HP Compaq 8000 Elite CMT - upgrade to better M/B with faster CPU

Post by rene »

I'm using that same machine in its USDT form-factor as a terminal-like system. The E8400 is a Core 2 Duo @ 3 GHz, a (not hyper-threaded) dual-core. Mine has 4GiB as 2 x 2GiB DDR3-1333 which has it useful. 2 x 4 GiB would be more useful, even more I'd personally feel wasted on that machine.

Yes, it's SATA2 and that means you're limited to approx. 280 MiB/s; mine does a little below that using an older Intel SATA2 SSD. Most SATA3 SSDs will have higher possible sequential read speeds but are definitely compatible and, yes, it is an enormous difference: what an SSD most fundamentally does is near-eliminate seek times and that's every bit as true on SATA2 as on SATA3. If you can still find a not or not overly much used SATA2 SSD you may feel this a better match but it doesn't in fact matter: you just won't need to get an expensive one if you get a new and SATA3 one -- although I'd still be careful to not get a so-called DRAM-less SSD.

That NVS 310 (1GiB dedicated) you have in there means it'll be useful with any or the Mint editions, although with a disclaimer as to not in fact knowing if that old card is still well-supported by either the binary or open nvidia driver. Mine runs Xfce on its integrated Intel graphics fine; ran Cinnamon semi-fine.

I would also not upgrade the CPU; the E8400 is in fact a very good CPU for that generation. A "coprocessor" is terminology from an era lost in the mists of time; your Core 2 Duo has its (mathematical) coprocessor very much built-in and so does anything else released in the last 20+ years.
MintDude2013
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HP Compaq 8000 Elite CMT - upgrade to better M/B with faster CPU

Post by MintDude2013 »

Hi Antikythera and Rene:

Thanks so much for all your useful feedback and tips :D.

I've already ordered the parts, although a 500Gb SSD instead on a 1Tb one, four 4Gb DDR3 CL9 (CL 6-7 RAM is prohibitively expensive) and an adapter bracket (I like things to be neat and tidy :)).

Once the parts have arrived, put in and all the software has been installed (LM20 'Lite', Windoze, etc.) I'll report back as to how things are going.

Many thanks again!

MintDude
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HP Compaq 8000 Elite CMT - upgrade to better M/B with faster CPU

Post by MintDude2013 »

Oops, I forgot to mention, no new CPU as per your recommendation :)! MintDude
MintDude2013
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RAM Riot

Post by MintDude2013 »

Hi guys:

The bracket I'd purchased for the 500Gb SSD didn't work. So, putting it into my machine took a bit of metal work (I'll post some pics later).

But when I tried to boot it the power LED started blinking (5 times, a 2 second pause, then 5 times again, etc.) and the P/S got real noisy after a few seconds. Googling for answers I found out that the culprit was the RAM. Only after I had put in the original three 2Gb RAM the PC started without problems.

The manual clearly states that I can put into my Compaq 8000 Elite up to four 4Gb DDR3 RAM (1333MHz). So I don't quite understand what the problem is and also find it quite frustrating that I may be limited to just 6GB of RAM.

Can you perhaps shed some light on this mystery? Is it perhaps possible to modify some BIOS settings to increase RAM in my machine? I'll also call HP, maybe they'll be able to help as well.

Thanks so much!

MintDude
rene
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Re: HP Compaq 8000 Elite CMT - upgrade to better M/B with faster CPU

Post by rene »

MintDude2013 wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:38 pm
Can you perhaps shed some light on this mystery?
Not really. You were earlier explicit about it wanting DDR3-1333 so it is assumed that you haven't simply bought flat-out incompatible RAM although I do hope you haven't bought e.g. specifically low-power DIMMs. What I would certainly do is make sure all slots and DIMMs are clean and making good contact, switch DIMMs around, and would first of all reset your BIOS settings to "default" or "optimized default" or whatever your BIOS-setup provides. My USDT version of the machine has SO-DIMMs so is not directly comparable. If you quote the complete number from or photograph a/the DIMM(s) --- they are all the same, right? --- perhaps this could become clearer.

As to bracket; odd. They tend to be incredibly simple, with screw holes on the sides where a 3.5" drive would have them to attach to what/however any such 3.5" inch drive would, and 2.5" screw holes on the bottom to screw the SSD onto.
MintDude2013
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RAM Riot aka HP Compaq 8000 Elite CMT - upgrade to better M/B with faster CPU :)

Post by MintDude2013 »

Hi Rene:

Many thanks for your reply.

I think I may have solved the RAM riot riddle :). After taking a look at the various RAM memory from my 3 PCs and some googling I found this: PC3 RAM requires an operating voltage of 1.5V whereas PC3L requires an operating voltage of 1.35V. The 'L' in PC3L signifies 'Low Voltage'. So using PC3 RAM in a PC3L RAM slot will not provide it sufficient voltage and it will fail to operate. On the other hand using a PC3L RAM in a PC3 RAM slot may damage it due to over-voltage. So PC3 and PC3L RAMs are not compatible with each other. The RAM in my 8000 Elite is PCR, whereas all the RAM in my 2 other machines is PCRL.

When I called HP I was told that there are 2 types of Compaq 8000 Elite CMT machines, one that does a total of 16Gb RAM and another (mine), that only allows 8Gb :shock:. So, I ordered another 2Gb DDR3 RAM and will let you know what happens if I put it in (just 6GB of RAM seems a little on the low side...).

Anyways, as for the tale of the SSD and the bracket :), the way HDDs in HP machines (at least those so-called Business PCs) are put in is done without screws. Instead you attach (screw) small "knobs" (about 1/4 of an inch in height) to the HDD and then slip it into place, where some "thingie" keeps it from moving. In other words, there was no way to attach the SSD bracket in one of those hard drive bays. Which is, why I used a small bracket in addition to the bracket I'd ordered besides the SSD, without which attaching it would have been quite a bit more involved:
HP 8000 Elite SSD Bracket.jpg
Many thanks again!

MintDude
rene
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Re: HP Compaq 8000 Elite CMT - upgrade to better M/B with faster CPU

Post by rene »

Concerning RAM, OK I guess. Concerning the bracket I'm still not sure I understand the issue: if the case had/has a way to install a regular 3.5" drive then it would have had a way to install that bracket, given that it attaches as though it were a 3.5 drive --- or were you just missing "the knobs" or something like that? Anyways, never mind :)
MintDude2013
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Re: HP Compaq 8000 Elite CMT - upgrade to better M/B with faster CPU

Post by MintDude2013 »

Hi Rene:

Many thank for your reply and I'm sorry for my late answer.

As for the bracket I'm going to take a couple of pics of the HDD bay of the now 'retired' newer HP computer ASAP. That'll hopefully show that just putting in the particular bracket really didn't work :).

Anyways, I've started setting up LM20 today. And to be honest, it was something of a downer. Everything that had worked just fine with LM18 and 19 suddenly doesn't. So hopefully you won't mind helping me out here as well :D.

So, here goes....
1) How do I install startup and shutdown sounds?
2) How do I put the "switch between 2 keyboard languages" tab on the Taskbar?
3) Where are the Desktop and Taskbar 'gadgets' (such as a Desktop clock, CPU meter, Desktop or Taskbar calendar, etc.)?
4) Where in the Start Menu can I turn off the logout function, i.e. that LM logs itself off every so often?
5) Would returning to LM 19 perhaps be a good idea if there are more such delightful surprises ;) in store?!

I hope all these questions don't require you to write long HTs but rather point me to the right sites. Google was pretty much useless... :x!

Thanks so much!

MintDude
rene
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Re: HP Compaq 8000 Elite CMT - upgrade to better M/B with faster CPU

Post by rene »

I'm afraid I have little to no interest in GUI thingies so won't be useful in detail for most of those. As to 4: you are not being logged of; what you are seeking to disable is the screensaver/locker. For others to help they will want to know which edition you are running (Cinnamon, Xfce, MATE). As to 5, I'm not on 20 myself so can't comment in full detail but I'd be surprised if there actually was a significant difference in the end.
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HP Compaq 8000 Elite CMT - upgrade to better M/B with faster CPU

Post by MintDude2013 »

Hi Rene:

Thank you for your reply and no problem with not being a GUI guy :). And thanks to your hint I didn't have any more problems with the screensaver/locker. Anyways, I ended up going back to LM18.3 where I encountered none of the problems I had with LM 20 as well as LM 19.3.

Still, there are a few questions left I hope won't be overly GUI and OK for you to answer :):
- How important is the Swap partition? I've read differing opinion as to its importance. If it is, is it possible to add it later without deleting an entire partition? When installing LM 18.3 I tried to create a Swap partition of 8Gb, but LM kept saying it's too small, so I went up to 15Gb, still with the same result. So, I let LM use my entire 200Gb Backup partition hoping it would only use s small part of it. But of course, LM deleted the entire backup. It's not really a biggie 'coz I had the backup files stored somewhere else as well. Anyways, now LM loads rather slow...

- Download Manager: is it OK or perhaps risky to download files marked 4 (instead 1,2 or 3)? A while a go I did download and have LM install a 4-level file (a kernel file, I think). Not sure if that had anything to do with it but after the next reboot the dual boot was gone...

- Is it possible to open Windoze bookmarks already copied to the Linux Desktop or can that be done only while they're still in the Windoze environment? I tried doing what these websites suggested: How To Import Bookmarks In Firefox? and How to import Bookmarks, Passwords and other data to Firefox. But when going with the Linux Bookmarks Manager to the Windoze Desktop and some folders where I know were HTML bookmark files the Linux Firefox Bookmarks Manager couldn't find any... :(.

Last but not least I did take a pic of the HDD bays of the newer HP PC (ca. 2014) and downloaded it to my PC. Unfortunately, I couldn't find it anymore. What I did find was, that besides the two 3.5" HDD bays there is one smaller for SSDs, something the older HP machine doesn't have. Attaching the SSD to that smaller space would've been a piece of cake and done with a few screws, exactly like you said.

Many thanks again.

MintDude
rene
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Re: HP Compaq 8000 Elite CMT - upgrade to better M/B with faster CPU

Post by rene »

MintDude2013 wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:56 am
- How important is the Swap partition?
If you do not hibernate the machine, not very, although I'd certainly suggest to have 1G to 2G or so of swap available.

In some more detail:

1. Hibernation (not enabled by default in Ubuntu/Mint) saves your RAM to the swap space, so clearly needs swap space at least the size of RAM.
2. Foregoing hibernation, currently 16G of RAM I would find to be the size at which you could on a Linux desktop quite conceivably choose to forego swap completely.
3. I'd with 8G of RAM advise 2G of available swap just so as to have a bit of overflow room --- but definitely no more, sooner 1G, since if you actually need swap during normal use that makes for an unusable desktop system anyway: you in that case need either another machine or adjustment of your workloads/habits.
4. With 4G < RAM < 8G I'd probably in fact advise the same.
5. Although I'm not sure any more if Mint 18/Ubuntu 16.04 already did so (believe not), certainly from M19/U18.04 on a swap-file rather than -partition is created by default. If your question implies being non too fond of having a swap partition around and if you have 8G now, I'd install 18 without a swap partition, then create a 1G or 2G swapfile as per e.g. https://www.digitalocean.com/community/ ... untu-16-04

The swapfile route is most flexible as to adding/deleting/growing/shrinking available swap space later but available only if you don't use adventurous filesystem types (i.e., if you just use default ext4 rather then e.g. btrfs or similar). Shuffling partitions around after the fact can be harder. And, yes, if you denote a given partition a swap-partition then certainly that entire partition is a swap partition: a swap partition does not contain a filesystem as such, and can hence not as in the case of a swapfile "share" with a regular filesystem.
MintDude2013 wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:56 am
- Download Manager: is it OK or perhaps risky to download files marked 4 (instead 1,2 or 3)?
Mint 18 was long ago for me but I take it you are referring to the old and by now discontinued Mint update level-system. The quickest advise I can give is to always simply install all suggested updates. The level-system was and always had been a misguided attempt at forcing what in reality is a complex and to individual use specific subject into a few numbers, and given the ferocity with which many people dislike/deny complexity it was in practice interpreted merely as what you are now hinting at: higher levels being considered "blanket-dangerous", thereby in many cases leaving users who'd categorically not apply them in in fact more "danger" than when they would have.
MintDude2013 wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:56 am
- Is it possible to open Windoze bookmarks already copied to the Linux Desktop or can that be done only while they're still in the Windoze environment?
The "Export bookmarks to HTML / Import bookmarks from HTML" route for Firefox from the link(s) you provided sounds like it would work without issue, although I'd advise to sync via an online Firefox account. I.e., https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/fi ... count-data. You can use it for a one-time sync or have your Firefoxen always sign in and thereby sync whatever parts of your browsing environment you choose continuously. If you use more than one machine routinely I can assure that you'll get used to that convenience quickly.
MintDude2013
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HP Compaq 8000 Elite CMT - upgrade to better M/B with faster CPU

Post by MintDude2013 »

Hi Rene:

Thanks so much for your detailed answer and please excuse my rather late reply.

As for hibernation, I certainly didn't enable it. And as for RAM, unfortunately my Compaq 8000 Elite is the version of two machines of the same type that won't allow more than 8Gb of RAM :shock:. With regards to the Swap space, I ran the "free -h" command and the Terminal as expected said 0B.

Like I indicated in my last post I ended up not creating (or rather not being able to create) a Swap partition with LM18.3. Maybe that's why booting takes quite a while, at least in terms of boot speed?!

Anyways, here's what the Terminal showed with the "df -h" command:
john@workspace ~ $ df -h
Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on
udev 3.9G 0 3.9G 0% /dev
tmpfs 791M 9.4M 782M 2% /run
/dev/sdb6 240G 32G 196G 14% /
tmpfs 3.9G 235M 3.7G 6% /dev/shm
tmpfs 5.0M 4.0K 5.0M 1% /run/lock
tmpfs 3.9G 0 3.9G 0% /sys/fs/cgroup
cgmfs 100K 0 100K 0% /run/cgmanager/fs
tmpfs 791M 92K 791M 1% /run/user/1000
/dev/sda2 197G 58G 139G 30% /media/john/Backups
/dev/sda1 736G 717G 19G 98% /media/john/Movies 1
/dev/sdb5 234G 103G 131G 45% /media/john/Windoze
/dev/sdc1 699G 679G 21G 98% /media/john/Movies 6
/dev/sdd2 285G 225G 60G 80% /media/john/Torrents
/dev/sdd1 1.6T 1.6T 37G 98% /media/john/Movies 2
john@workspace ~ $


What about this caveat, Although swap is generally recommended for systems utilizing traditional spinning hard drives, using swap with SSDs can cause issues with hardware degradation over time. Due to this consideration, we do not recommend enabling swap on DigitalOcean or any other provider that utilizes SSD storage.

Since LM18.3 (as well as Win7) is installed on the 500Gb SSD, wouldn't it therefore be better if the Swap file were created on one of the HDDs?

Of the disks/partitions listed I'd like to add the Swap file either to the "Backups" or the "Torrents" partition. And just to be on the safe side I'd rather have 2Gb than just 1 :). Anyhow, if I run the "sudo fallocate -l 1G /swapfile", etc. commands, how do I tell the Terminal that I want the Swap file on either "Backups" or "Torrents"? The command lines after "sudo fallocate -l 1G /swapfile" don't seem to indicate where the Swap file should actually get created.

With regards to Mint 18.3, which I'm using right now, and the old and discontinued Mint update level-system a few days ago I installed all suggested updates, including the 'Level 4' files, and so far haven't noticed any ill effects!

Last but not least, I guess the idea of Firefox Accounts - Managing account data is to access Firefox bookmarks in Windoze and then somehow (?!) import them to Linux?!

Many thanks again. And my apologies for asking all those questions...

MintDude
rene
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Re: HP Compaq 8000 Elite CMT - upgrade to better M/B with faster CPU

Post by rene »

MintDude2013 wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:46 pm
Like I indicated in my last post I ended up not creating (or rather not being able to create) a Swap partition with LM18.3. Maybe that's why booting takes quite a while, at least in terms of boot speed?!
Possibly. You'll need to post the output of blkid, cat /etc/fstab, cat /etc/initramfs-tools/conf.d/resume and free. Note that each of those four is best posted inside of [code]...[/code] blocks so as to preserve formatting and not have output take up too much space.
MintDude2013 wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:46 pm
What about this caveat, Although swap is generally recommended for systems utilizing traditional spinning hard drives, using swap with SSDs can cause issues with hardware degradation over time. Due to this consideration, we do not recommend enabling swap on DigitalOcean or any other provider that utilizes SSD storage.
Not real on a modern SSD due to effective wearleveling combined with in fact on my 8G Linux desktop systems swapspace probably being the set of least accessed blocks of the drive anyway.
MintDude2013 wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:46 pm
The command lines after "sudo fallocate -l 1G /swapfile" don't seem to indicate where the Swap file should actually get created.
It certainly does: you are creating the file /swapfile, i.e., the file named "swapfile" in the root directory "/". Your rootfs lives on /dev/sdb6 so that's where you created it. A swapfile under /media fairly majorly offends my system-sensitivities but if /media/john/{Backup,Torrents} are in /etc/fstab permanently mounted ext4 partitions you'd just create e.g. sudo fallocate -l 2G /media/john/Backup/swapfile. But eeew. I'd just let it live in / on the SSD or if need be create a separate swap partition after all on the spinner with e.g. gparted; that would need some further guidance; shan't bother if you're fine with /swapfile after all.
MintDude2013 wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:46 pm
Last but not least, I guess the idea of Firefox Accounts - Managing account data is to access Firefox bookmarks in Windoze and then somehow (?!) import them to Linux?!
No, not necessarily. It's to synchronize Firefox bookmarks and (if so desired/configured) for example passwords/logins between copies of Firefox, running on whichever platform, Windows, Linux, mobile, ...; https://www.mozilla.org/en/firefox/accounts/

Any copy of Firefox on which you login to the same Firefox account and set to synchronize with it gets that which you sync. If you e.g. bookmark something on one machine then a bit later find yourself on another where you actually need said bookmark that can be very convenient.
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