SSD can't be stopped after backup and TRIM

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famouslastwords

Re: SSD can't be stopped after backup and TRIM

Post by famouslastwords »

Might check the settings in FFS or search/ask in the projects forum. Just searched for the word linux in the forums searchbar and this came up. Had never heard of FFS, had to google, also can't say it's the culprit only a thought.
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Re: SSD can't be stopped after backup and TRIM

Post by rene »

The .Trash thing sounded in fact interesting but poster said the drives were actually getting unmounted; if GVFS was keeping .Trash busy the symptom would be that they couldn't in fact be unmounted.
famouslastwords

Re: SSD can't be stopped after backup and TRIM

Post by famouslastwords »

Get what you're saying but still the similarity, the unable to stop thing (could point to FFS being involved.) Overall if you like FFS OP and it's not causing data loss or corruption. May not be worth spending tons of time trying to figure it out. Again only a thought, errr dang it, though not like there's a shortage of backup tools/methods for gnu/Linux. Still that's more time and headaches if you're already comfortable with what you've got.

I prefer bash alias + script that runs rsync, type alias when any (or all)of the desired usb drives are plugged to run backups to them. Not as flashy as the screenshots of FFS but works for me ...
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Re: SSD can't be stopped after backup and TRIM

Post by Lady Fitzgerald »

rene wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:17 pm In that case, let me add that Disks in fact seems to display the device nodes (weeee, a use for Disks....) so where I said "/dev/sdz" I aim for you to replace that with the device node(s) as shown by Disks as "Device", with a trailing number stripped. I.e, if it shows an external drive as /dev/sda or /dev/sda1 you use /dev/sda.
I'm going to wait until I get the backup drives swapped out before I start messing with anything to see what happens if I just don't run TRIM after a massive file copy. Things are starting to strain my brain and that seems to be a lot of steps to have to deal with.
Jeannie

To ensure the safety of your data, you have to be proactive, not reactive, so, back it up!
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Re: SSD can't be stopped after backup and TRIM

Post by Lady Fitzgerald »

famouslastwords wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:54 pm Might check the settings in FFS or search/ask in the projects forum. Just searched for the word linux in the forums searchbar and this came up. Had never heard of FFS, had to google, also can't say it's the culprit only a thought.
That applies to data in /home. I don't keep any data in /home in either of my Linux machines except for hidden files; I let Timeshift back those up so I can restore previous settings as well as the OS and programs. I also manually backup my calendar and sticky note data files to my Data1 drive (laptop) or separate Data partition (notebook aka the one drive wonder) to avoid losing that data in a restore so that's not an issue.

Nice find! I totally missed it when I was searching.
Jeannie

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Re: SSD can't be stopped after backup and TRIM

Post by Lady Fitzgerald »

famouslastwords wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:22 pm Get what you're saying but still the similarity, the unable to stop thing (could point to FFS being involved.) Overall if you like FFS OP and it's not causing data loss or corruption. May not be worth spending tons of time trying to figure it out. Again only a thought, errr dang it, though not like there's a shortage of backup tools/methods for gnu/Linux. Still that's more time and headaches if you're already comfortable with what you've got.

I prefer bash alias + script that runs rsync, type alias when any (or all)of the desired usb drives are plugged to run backups to them. Not as flashy as the screenshots of FFS but works for me ...
I use FreeFileSync (abbreviated to FFS because I'm too lazy to keep typing FreeFileSync) because it had features rsync doesn't have, such as versioning and verifying file copies, and incredible ease of use once set up (being flashy is just a bonus).

Again, I'm waiting for my next massive update session to see if just using FFS only and not following up with TRIM until another day will help or not.
Jeannie

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Re: SSD can't be stopped after backup and TRIM

Post by Lady Fitzgerald »

famouslastwords wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:22 pm Get what you're saying but still the similarity, the unable to stop thing (could point to FFS being involved.) Overall if you like FFS OP and it's not causing data loss or corruption. May not be worth spending tons of time trying to figure it out. Again only a thought, errr dang it, though not like there's a shortage of backup tools/methods for gnu/Linux. Still that's more time and headaches if you're already comfortable with what you've got.

I prefer bash alias + script that runs rsync, type alias when any (or all)of the desired usb drives are plugged to run backups to them. Not as flashy as the screenshots of FFS but works for me ...
I never could figure out how to get rsync to do all that FFS does so even making alias to simplify getting to it wouldn't help. Grsync was also too limited.
Jeannie

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famouslastwords

Re: SSD can't be stopped after backup and TRIM

Post by famouslastwords »

Nothing wrong with someone using what works for them. One of the many great things about having so much to choose from. Don't know anything about FFS other than a couple mins of reading on it's website and looking at some screenies. :)
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Re: SSD can't be stopped after backup and TRIM

Post by Lady Fitzgerald »

famouslastwords wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:06 pm Nothing wrong with someone using what works for them. One of the many great things about having so much to choose from. Don't know anything about FFS other than a couple mins of reading on it's website and looking at some screenies. :)
I had a lot of experience with FFS since way back in the dark ages (before I switched to Linux) and, except for this glitch that may or may not be due to FFS itself, it's been working well for me. I'ver yet to find any backup software in Widwoes or Linux that does what FFS can easily do.

I'll admit I had trouble with it at first in Linux trying to wrap my mind around the needed exclusions (file permissions were what hung me up and it took a while for the penny to drop :oops: ).
Jeannie

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Re: SSD can't be stopped after backup and TRIM

Post by Lady Fitzgerald »

I was doing a minor update of all my drives (internal and onsite backups) and even though it was only was around 15GB or less, the last set of four pulled the same stunt on me (mutter, mutter, mumble, mumble) despite waiting 15 minutes after the update so I'm thinking its not so much the amount of data being updated as it is the number of times I've done it.

Since I might be getting my truck back soon enough I may be able to make it to my credit union in time to swap out my onsite and offsite backup drives, I updated my onsite backup drives this morning, around 67GB of data). Tis time, I restarted the computer after the first batch, then did the second batch with no problems. Everything went as slick as snot on a broom handle. I also didn't run TRIM. I'll do that later.

Of course, once I've made the drive swap, I'll be updating as much as a TB on one pair of drives (not nearly as much on the others but still a lot) so I'lkl try the same thing to see how well that works. It will be interest to see how well TRIM gets handled (TRIM just might be the cause of the problem).

So now I'm making like the cat that ate some cheese and waited with "baited" breath by the mouse hole.
Jeannie

To ensure the safety of your data, you have to be proactive, not reactive, so, back it up!
famouslastwords

Re: SSD can't be stopped after backup and TRIM

Post by famouslastwords »

800gbs this ... a small one "only was around 15GB" that ... "I updated my onsite backup drives this morning, around 67GB of data" What is all this, where are you getting all this data ?! You must have the largest media library in the known world !

Being a dork, saw a joke opportunity I just couldn't pass up. :D
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Re: SSD can't be stopped after backup and TRIM

Post by Lady Fitzgerald »

famouslastwords wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:50 pm 800gbs this ... a small one "only was around 15GB" that ... "I updated my onsite backup drives this morning, around 67GB of data" What is all this, where are you getting all this data ?! You must have the largest media library in the known world !

Being a dork, saw a joke opportunity I just couldn't pass up. :D
It's not the largest media library in the world but it might be a contender. :lol:

All seriousness :?: aside, it is a large one: 7.6 TB (movies and music) minus 844GB for a temporarily duplicated Music folder (I'll be deleting the original Music folder once I've finished rebuilding my VLC playlists on the duplicate Music folder on another drive.
Jeannie

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Re: SSD can't be stopped after backup and TRIM

Post by Lady Fitzgerald »

Well, the problem appears to be with the NTFS formatted backup drives not playing well with TRIM or not liking having four connected and mounted all at the same time. I'm waiting until I can get the swap done at my credit union, then I'll try updating each drive and TRIMing it one at a time. Right now, I still waiting to get my little F150 Screw back from the shop so I can resume waddling errands, including a credit union run.
Jeannie

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Re: SSD can't be stopped after backup and TRIM

Post by Lady Fitzgerald »

Well, I got my little truck back in time to get three of the errands I needed to waddle, including going to my credit union to swap out backup drives. I'll start updating the backups in the next few days to see if I can get a handle on this problem.
Jeannie

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famouslastwords

Re: SSD can't be stopped after backup and TRIM

Post by famouslastwords »

Thought that ntfs may be playing a part did cross my mind, as it's a non-natively supported, closed source file system. Ah .. speculation, nothing concrete to point to and doesn't matter you like the tools and methods you're using now. Sounds like you've got your data backup plan down to a science. :) Hope a solution emerges, would just be interesting to hear what was going on with it.
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Re: SSD can't be stopped after backup and TRIM

Post by Lady Fitzgerald »

Angry emoji.jpg
(Scream over) This is driving me nuckin' futz!

I've been pecking away at rebuilding my rebuilding my music playlists (and adding a few new ones) after copying my Music folder from the Data1 drive in my laptop computer to the Data2 drive in the computer, then, today, I deleted the no longer needed Music folder on Data1. I then backed up all four of the data drives/partitions in my computer with FreeFileSync (FFS) to the computer's four ext4 external backup drives, ran time sync, then had no trouble shutting down the drives. When I later TRIMed the backup drives (along with the drives/partitions in the laptop), I again had no problems safely shutting down.

I did make one "mistake"; I should have also deleted the Music folder on Data1's backup drive before running FFS. Since I didn't, FFS wrote the entire 844GB contents to the Versioning folder on the DATA1 drive. FFS did exactly what it was supposed to do; the update just took a lot longer, added 844GB of unnecessary writes to the DATA1 drive, then I had to delete the data that had been written to the Versioning folder. No problem, it's just annoying as an itch on the bottom of your foot when wearing shoes where you can't take one off to scratch at the itch (mutter, mutter, mumble mumble).

I've been treating the Data drives (ext4) from my old, dead desktop, which I'm maintaining for my future desktop, the same way as external backup drives for the laptop. This time, before updating them with FFS, I deleted the Music folder on the desktop's Data1 drive before running FFS to update them. After it was finished, I ran time sync, TRIMed the drives, ran time sync again, then again had no trouble safely shutting down the drives. I suspect that time sync isn't even necessary.

Then there were the desktop backup drives (formatted NTFS) I had retrieved from my credit union last Friday. On the first set of four, even though I had the good sense to first delete the Music folder from the Data1 backup drive, it still took forcottonpickin'ever to run (over two hours compared to 45 minutes on the ext4 backup drives). I ran time sync afterwards and I had the darnedest time trying to safely shut down the drives.

When I first tried shutting down the Data4 backup (BU) drive, the computer said it couldn't stop the drive and unmounted all four backup drives. I remounted them and waited around half an hour, then tried again. The Data4 BU drive safely shut down but, when I tried the Data3 BU drive, I got that*&^%$#@!! message again and all three remaining backup drives were unmounted. I remounted them, again, then shut down the laptop.

After unplugging the backup drives, I rebooted the laptop. After it was booted, I reconnected the backup drives, waiting after plugging in each one for it to mount. It took an abnormal amount of time--around 30 seconds--for each drive to mount. After I got all four mounted, I tried safely removing them and the Data4 BU drive gave me that *&^%$#@! message again and unmounted all four BU drives. WTH! I remounted the BU drives, then shut down the computer again.

After unplugging the drives, AGAIN, I rebooted the laptop, then plugged in just one BU drive and waited for it to mount. After it mounted, I was able to safely remove it with no problems. When unplugged it, then plugged it back in, it mounted in a normal amount of time. After safely removing it again, I repeated the painful process again for each of the other three BU drives, plugging in only one at a time.

What's really infuriatingly enraging is, in the past, I never had any trouble with this; it's a fairly recent problem. I'm guessing a kernel or other update is the cause. I'm not expecting the Linux developers to "fix" this since NTFS is not an official Linux standard so I need to come up with a way so, if my house burns down with me, my computers, and my onsite backups in it, making me a crispy critter and everything else toast, the executor of my will and my heirs can still access the backups in my safe deposit box at my credit union (they all use Windwoes).

I decided to try to give exfat a try. I grabbed a spare 4TB SSD and tried to format to exfat. Gparted had exfat grayed out (mutter, mutter, mumble, mumble). I then tried Disks. I appeared it would allow me to format it as exfat but when I tried it, it said my filename was too long. WTH!? dt1_Data2_bu_1_3 is too long? :roll: Seriously?

At this point, I decided to quit for now before laptops and drives started becoming airborne. I don't know what the hell to do next! Any suggestions?
Jeannie

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Re: SSD can't be stopped after backup and TRIM

Post by t42 »

dt1_Data2_bu_1_3 is too long
exfat specification: label length must be between 0 and 11. You have more.
-=t42=-
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Re: SSD can't be stopped after backup and TRIM

Post by Lady Fitzgerald »

t42 wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:51 pm
dt1_Data2_bu_1_3 is too long
exfat specification: label length must be between 0 and 11. You have more.
Thanks! I was too enraged earlier to look it up and I still need some time to cool off more before I can do something really stupid (I'm still wondering if laptops and SSDs make good Frisbees).
Jeannie

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Re: SSD can't be stopped after backup and TRIM

Post by t42 »

Lady Fitzgerald wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:26 pm laptops and SSDs make good Frisbees
I did that once with my Dell when discovered a throng of ants in it. Now this laptop acts as a reminder to keep my cool. As a compensation the Dell has single external 22'' IPS display instead of its old screen.
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Re: SSD can't be stopped after backup and TRIM

Post by Lady Fitzgerald »

Well, exfat is not the answer. I formatted the spare drive, set up FFS to backup Data1 (the drive with the least data on it--1.6TB) then let 'er rip. After two hours running time, there were still over four and a half hours to go so I terminated FFS and put the drive away.

I found out that there was an update for NTFS a little while back. Since it was a security update, I'm stuck with it. :cry:

Now to work on coming up with a plan (which one is it by now?) G. :roll:
Jeannie

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