Some Linux wireless philosophy, a word on WEP

[brian_va]

lol---- WEP! A journey through Linux

WEP is little more than a cruel joke. I have been battling this WEP issue on and off since maybe mid July. Once in a while my wife goes out of town or something and I disable WEP and login from my Mint machine. Granted, I'm no Linuxhead or have time to start my computer on a daily basis, however, if it were windows I'd be done by now. It took me weeks of brief trial and error while greatly pissing off my wife for frequently interrupting our service. But eventually I discovered my wireless adapter is fine, my router is fine (though I don't like it), my computer is fine, my service is fine. WEP just does not accept Linux, or is it Linux does not accept WEP?

You would think developers might have noticed this minor oversight and offered up a A-Z doc that walks you through the resolution, ha, think again. Then again how would you know if you are even using a debian based system? Not that many of us would, but I'd bet it would help. This where the Linux philosophy breaks down. While many folks have suggestions, and some have answers, no one stops to think, if you make a free OS that looks and feels like Windows then you eventually be flooded by people who want it. Murphy's law: Build a system any idiot can use and any idiot will use it. Well hey, that would be me! Because while I'm good with windows, I know absolutely zilch about Linux except that I want it, because I'm tired of windows. It's been humbling and quite the catch22.

Sadly hardcore Linux lovers don't generally stop to think about the fact that Linux has gone mainstream. And the days of presuming everyone is fully aware of what the heck a kernel is, or why you would want or have gnome or gedit, aren't going to work. "Oh just type X into blank and that should do it". And I keep banging my head, wondering just what part of this new OS do I click on to type anything into in the first place? It leaves me with that old "any" key feeling.

This is largely a huge part of why windows was such a smashing success, because you didn't need to be a full time walking pocket protector with a degree in computer science to operate windows. (hint)

As I embark further looking for answers I discovered that the world of Linux is an undocumented one. Through casual searching you will find almost nothing via Google that puts "WEP" and "Linux" together in the same sentence. While there are numerous persons in forums who are willing to assist you with the words "this might help" attached to a link will leave you frustrated at best, and I have learned to no longer bother clicking. The result always leads you back to Ubuntu forums and docs, that again lead you absolutely nowhere. In fact, I double dog dare anyone to come up with an A-Z document that fully walks through the casual user the miseries of WEP and lands them in a world of sunshine and lollipops of wireless internet connection.

I have read everything from settings in your wireless card/adapter to configuring through terminal mode, to it just isn't compatible with the ASCII and will require more work to make it so. Whatever. Eventually I will get this pinned down. I intend to stick with Linny, after all how can you go wrong with a penguin? But the idea that this is a free ride is a gas! Last night my wife very kindly picked up a copy of Linux for Dummies per my request if she ever happen to come upon it. As I quickly acquaint myself with the book and I learn it has dvd, and behold, a free Fedora 7 install package. Well, why the he77 didn't I just by the book/dvd package instead!?

So I will be plunging in with both feet until I become a Linux Jedi, or at the very least, a reasonable padawan. It's frustrating, but the price is right, the security is better, and with barely a virus written for it, well... you get the picture. I make this solemn promise; If I EVER find just what exactly you type and where, to make a Linux system work under the conditions of WEP, I will blab away like a drunk redneck girl at the county fair until the whole cotton pickn' world knows just what to type and where to make it work.

brian

[rich_roast]

Through casual searching you will find almost nothing via Google that puts "WEP" and "Linux" together in the same sentence....

Not true.

Further tutorials specific to Mint are available through the Tutorials board here, and the wiki.

[brian_va]

Through casual searching you will find almost nothing via Google that puts "WEP" and "Linux" together in the same sentence....

Not true.

Further tutorials specific to Mint are available through the Tutorials board here, and the wiki.

Yeah that's real funny partner. Don't quit your day job. Like i was saying, there's always some one out there with a link and the mind numbing words "this might help", Such as the comedian above. Oh yeah, been there done that have the tee shirt, long before you showed up, still no WEP connection. Like Ubuntu isn't acknowledged by my hard wear, I think I'll chalk up Mint to another distro with limitations.

[pluraldave]

This is why WEP is unsupported. If you use WEP you may as well use no encryption. You should switch to WPA.

Wired Equivalent Privacy (WEP) is a deprecated algorithm to secure IEEE 802.11 wireless networks. Wireless networks broadcast messages using radio and are thus more susceptible to eavesdropping than wired networks. When introduced in 1997,[1] WEP was intended to provide confidentiality comparable to that of a traditional wired network.

Beginning in 2001, several serious weaknesses were identified by cryptanalysts with the result that today a WEP connection can be cracked with readily available software within minutes.[2] Within a few months the IEEE created a new 802.11i task force to counteract the problems. By 2003, the Wi-Fi Alliance announced that WEP had been superseded by Wi-Fi Protected Access (WPA), which was a subset of then upcoming 802.11i amendment. Finally in 2004, with the ratification of the full 802.11i standard (i.e., WPA2), the IEEE declared that both WEP-40 and WEP-104 "have been deprecated as they fail to meet their security goals".[3] Despite its weaknesses, WEP is still widely in use.[4] WEP is often the first security choice presented to users by router configuration tools even though it provides a level of security that deters only unintentional use, leaving the network vulnerable to deliberate compromise.[5]

[DrHu]

But eventually I discovered my wireless adapter is fine, my router is fine (though I don't like it), my computer is fine, my service is fine. WEP just does not accept Linux, or is it Linux does not accept WEP?
You would think developers might have noticed this minor oversight and offered up a A-Z doc that walks you through the resolution, ha, think again.

..You would think developers might have noticed this minor oversight
I don't know, did you ever get it fixed, for if the wireless card is supported, you have an ISP router designated as wep and you know the ISP's password for the account of record, connecting is as simple and as easy as DHCP auto for the wireless card..you are then connected alright!..

I can connect to open networks and wep quite easily, as long as the wireless card is detected and being used..

While many folks have suggestions, and some have answers, no one stops to think, if you make a free OS that looks and feels like Windows then you eventually be flooded by people who want it.

That can't be a Linux problem; managing expectations
--that's what we have windows for.
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/23532 ... top-errors
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/925810
--apropos the kernel error problem, STOP error for windows..

And the days of presuming everyone is fully aware of what the heck a kernel is, or why you would want or have gnome or gedit, aren't going to work. "Oh just type X into blank and that should do it". And I keep banging my head, wondering just what part of this new OS do I click on to type anything into in the first place?

..presuming everyone is fully aware of what the heck a kernel is..
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Windows-XP-3 ... -Error.htm
http://www.aumha.org/a/stop.php
http://www.winvistaclub.com/t3.html
Windows has a kernel, Apple OS-X has a kernel
--and they (kernel names) even appear in screen dump messages when their system crashes..

While there are numerous persons in forums who are willing to assist you with the words "this might help" attached to a link will leave you frustrated at best, and I have learned to no longer bother clicking.

..I have learned to no longer bother clicking...
Then you missed the answer that was available in one click of the mouse
Nobody has the time or possibly inclination, unless they have the exact same hardware as you, to describe how they fixed the WEP issue; that is assuming they even had an issue
--if they say (which is true for them with the same hardware), I plugged it in, it was detected and my wep wireless asked for the password, I gave the password twice (as there also seemed to be a keyring message), and then I could connect every time
--I noticed the [x]automatically connect button selection method..

Eventually I will get this pinned down. I intend to stick with Linny, after all how can you go wrong with a penguin?

..after all how can you go wrong..
You can't, I think you already know that!

[Levaix]

brian_va: I'm actually having the exact same issue as you. But other people are having issues with WPA, or any network at all. That's kind of where the issue is.

Windows has the backing of the hardware manufacturers. This means that when you get a computer with Windows on it, the manufacturer has already given you all the drivers you need for your specific components. There's no way Windows would run wireless, proper graphics, memory stick readers, etc. without these drivers. As Linux is run by ordinary people, they don't have access to all these slightly different pieces of hardware. That being said, I have seen AMAZING progress with hardware recognition even in the last few years. Considering this is all done by people who really have no clue what kind of system their OS is being run on, it really is impressive that everything on your computer EXCEPT WEP works.

And yeah, I know it sucks that you're having issues with it (I'm in the same boat), but to be frank, the developers have no obligation to help you in the slightest bit. But they try to anyways. And that's all they can do. Any little bit they contribute is out of the goodness of their hearts or the goal of making their system the best. So, sorry to break it to you, but it's not very nice to start yelling at these people that have worked very hard to get this working right. If it doesn't work, you don't have to use it.

But yeah, I definitely hear you on this. I'm loving LM7, but that one little WEP bit is maddening. If anyone comes up with a solution, be sure to let me know.

[brian_va]

brian_va: I'm actually having the exact same issue as you. But other people are having issues with WPA, or any network at all. That's kind of where the issue is.

Windows has the backing of the hardware manufacturers. This means that when you get a computer with Windows on it, the manufacturer has already given you all the drivers you need for your specific components. There's no way Windows would run wireless, proper graphics, memory stick readers, etc. without these drivers. As Linux is run by ordinary people, they don't have access to all these slightly different pieces of hardware. That being said, I have seen AMAZING progress with hardware recognition even in the last few years. Considering this is all done by people who really have no clue what kind of system their OS is being run on, it really is impressive that everything on your computer EXCEPT WEP works.

And yeah, I know it sucks that you're having issues with it (I'm in the same boat), but to be frank, the developers have no obligation to help you in the slightest bit. But they try to anyways. And that's all they can do. Any little bit they contribute is out of the goodness of their hearts or the goal of making their system the best. So, sorry to break it to you, but it's not very nice to start yelling at these people that have worked very hard to get this working right. If it doesn't work, you don't have to use it.

But yeah, I definitely hear you on this. I'm loving LM7, but that one little WEP bit is maddening. If anyone comes up with a solution, be sure to let me know.

Yes, that is the inherent problem. But what you get for your inquiry regardless of where you go is the same old smartalec know it allish responses on the fact you should be using Wpa and not Wep because it isn't as secure. I'm not interested in what other people think I should have. Wep does a fine enough job of keeping obnoxious teen agers off my system and thats all it needs to do, and I think that speaks for most home networks and their owners. I'm not about to go reconfiguring my network and my machines because Mint doesn't work with Wep.But before we even approach the words hind sight, if Wep doesn't work, then why would Wpa? Helloooooooooo

It's the world of connection and networking. This should be the first and foremost paramount issue in distro development. Yet it seems to take a back seat to cool graphics and nifty aps, that are going nowhere until you can connect, and we find ourselves back to the old "sneaker net" of walking drives and media from machine to machine. But is no different in the gaming industry where I have some experience. Game releases are awful, developers are bound and determined to put more focus on cool graphics and multi player over the idea that the game actually works. Patch patch patch, never buy the first release of anything.

Do I love Mint? I like it very much, can't say it's an obsession with a special affinity for it. And I certainly appreciate the work being done. But like Ubuntu, google the words "Ubuntu live cd doesn't work". I had the same problem, and opted for Mint. The Mint cd ran like poo through a goose (first good sign). But here we go again, priorities seem to lost in the heat of coding.

So now I'm looking at Fedora 11 now. Eventually we find a distro that does what it claims. Gotta go, duty calls.

[rich_roast]

Yeah that's real funny partner.

Not trying to be, partner.

The page length story gives nothing in the way of information that can help people who actually want to help other people provide any help. Hence the default links to general guides. Given general information ("I can't log on to a wireless network using WEP using Linux Mint"), only general assistance may be given. The lmgtfy link was a response to a patently false statement on the OP's part. If I wrongly assumed that the OP had not, in fact, used Google, then it was on the basis of that statement, and I apologise for that. The evidence that link provides suggests that there are plenty of linux + wep pages available online.

Mint has a known WEP issue. Gnome NetworkManager, which provides the main GUI for networking in Mint, is not without its faults either. These particular problems may not have been solved yet, which is a pity. A pity we should be endeavouring to resolve. The idea being that by resolving it, or causing a fuss in the right places if we can't resolve it, we'll get it resolved not just for us but for other people, too. Should we give up, it will stay broken for longer, which will be a sad thing.

We'll need to know what hardware we're dealing with. The output of

Code: Select all

ifconfig

is a good first step.

Because there are instructions here and here which may or may not help, but we won't know until we have the specifics of the problem. I mean, we don't even know if we're talking about a usb wireless dongle, a cardbus wireless card, or inbuilt wireless here? I admit I sped my way through the posts but what choice do I or does anyone else have when we end up talking about jedi at the end of a post?

So, let's cut the long stories and have some data, please? That mainly just includes ifconfig, I suppose - but then I'm an amateur myself so maybe someone else will be able to ask for a more specific item. But it would also help to know, what have you tried? What steps did you take? What error outputs were the result of those steps? I mean, what have you done to try to resolve the problem yourself? Seriously, because it could help a lot of other people if we get this fixed, and if we can't then we have to make a bug report in the right places to get it fixed, and then help the devs, so that eventually we can all start being happy.

(PS. Pluraldave is right. Anyone googling Linux+WEP will be able to hack a WEP connection within a few hours, perhaps less, if they have sufficient hardware and some dedication.)

[brian_va]

Yeah that's real funny partner.

Not trying to be, partner.

The page length story gives nothing in the way of information that can help people who actually want to help other people provide any help. Hence the default links to general guides. Given general information ("I can't log on to a wireless network using WEP using Linux Mint"), only general assistance may be given. The lmgtfy link was a response to a patently false statement on the OP's part. If I wrongly assumed that the OP had not, in fact, used Google, then it was on the basis of that statement, and I apologise for that. The evidence that link provides suggests that there are plenty of linux + wep pages available online.

Mint has a known WEP issue. Gnome NetworkManager, which provides the main GUI for networking in Mint, is not without its faults either. These particular problems may not have been solved yet, which is a pity. A pity we should be endeavouring to resolve. The idea being that by resolving it, or causing a fuss in the right places if we can't resolve it, we'll get it resolved not just for us but for other people, too. Should we give up, it will stay broken for longer, which will be a sad thing.

We'll need to know what hardware we're dealing with. The output of

Code: Select all

ifconfig

is a good first step.

Because there are instructions here and here which may or may not help, but we won't know until we have the specifics of the problem. I mean, we don't even know if we're talking about a usb wireless dongle, a cardbus wireless card, or inbuilt wireless here? I admit I sped my way through the posts but what choice do I or does anyone else have when we end up talking about jedi at the end of a post?

So, let's cut the long stories and have some data, please? That mainly just includes ifconfig, I suppose - but then I'm an amateur myself so maybe someone else will be able to ask for a more specific item. But it would also help to know, what have you tried? What steps did you take? What error outputs were the result of those steps? I mean, what have you done to try to resolve the problem yourself? Seriously, because it could help a lot of other people if we get this fixed, and if we can't then we have to make a bug report in the right places to get it fixed, and then help the devs, so that eventually we can all start being happy.

(PS. Pluraldave is right. Anyone googling Linux+WEP will be able to hack a WEP connection within a few hours, perhaps less, if they have sufficient hardware and some dedication.)

Like I said, I am not looking for opinions or quip, I am looking for answers. I Have ifconfigged and wlan0'd till my fingers were raw, I have Googled it repeatedly using as many dumb key word searches as I could come up with. Only then did I bother to bring it here, where I get yet more quip and links to nowhere.

In the world of wireless one might think that Linux teams might have addressed this with more effort rather than leaving to be anyone's guess from day to day. I will say, MInt is not the only distro with this problem, they all seem to have it. Linux simply doesn't work with most of WEP and about half of WPA. But to suggest that we need to change our routers, change our connections, or even hack our own gear just to connect to our own stuff is really just ridiculous. Take that suggestion to sales and marketing teams, get it past the board of directors at Microsoft or MAC. I have a better idea, fix the darn problem. Lets not waste another minute on cool looking backgrounds and features until it's assured that any cotton pickn' machine and configuration that can connect wirelessly regardless of popular opinions on what kind of security someone else should have, or how to hack it. Stop treating people like idiots ans assume that maybe they have enough experience to work out matters if they have proper information and resources rather than deadend links, sharp tongues and opinions.

This is like buying a car with no engine and having to jump from one dumb gas jockey to the next trying to find the place where you go to get one. Here, just follow this link of useless information to the new car engine store that doesn't exist.

I'm done with Mint, switched to Fedora, bye.

[DrHu]

Like I said, I am not looking for opinions or quip, I am looking for answers. I Have ifconfigged and wlan0'd till my fingers were raw, I have Googled it repeatedly using as many dumb key word searches as I could come up with. Only then did I bother to bring it here, where I get yet more quip and links to nowhere.
..
I'm done with Mint, switched to Fedora, bye.

Like I said, I am not looking for opinions or quip, I am looking for answers.
And yet no data is provided..
--you didn't provide any responses to the suggestions/answers provided

If the WPA mode works better in Mint, and indeed is the better/best choice, and you don't want to even try it; I guess that's just too bad.

I'm done with Mint, switched to Fedora, bye
Good luck at Fedora, maybe they'll be less tolerant of you, than you think
If we weren't sure it was just a random rant, at the beginning, now we know for sure

[optimize me]

While I can, in some small way, sympathize with OPs hardships, I can't empathize; WEP has never failed me and I've never had a connection problem with a WEP network. That being said, I agree: Too much developmental energy is being wasted on wobbly windows and putting fish inside the cube and another way to make a compiz plugin use the burn effect when it should be being channeled towards fixing critical, core issues like wireless networking.

At any rate, since OP feels that Fedora forums is more likely to respond to his n00bish rants and temper tantrums, I wish him the best of luck. If his new support posts look anything like this one here does, I wouldn't expect him to get any help there either.