KDE on future versions of Mint (+20)

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hackerman1
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KDE on future versions of Mint (+20)

Post by hackerman1 » Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:19 pm

I originally posted this in another thread that was closed my moderator, referring to another thread that was said to "cover" this.
There is a LOT of information (and opinions) about many things in that other long thread (80 posts)...

But unfortunately no straight answers to my questions...
Monthly News – October 2017:

"In continuation with what’s been done in the past, Linux Mint 18.3 will feature a KDE edition, but it will be the last release to do so."

"Users of the KDE edition represent a portion of our user base.
They will be able to install KDE on top of Linux Mint 19 of course and I’m sure the Kubuntu PPA will continue to be available. "
I´m confused...
Could someone please explain, in "plain english", what this means ?
Will it be possible to continue to use KDE also for -future versions of LinuxMint (20, 21...) etc. ?

What is the difference between the "KDE-edition" and "installing KDE on top of Linux Mint" ?

I got three replies, the last contradicting the first two...
The way to do it is to install the Xfce version of Mint, then install KDE via the Software Manager (or Package Manager). The reason why to install Xfce versus Mate or Cinnamon is because deleting Xfce is "cleaner," for lack of a better word, than deleting Mate or Cinnamon. And you want to delete it after installing KDE because having two DEs on one installation causes problems (or usually does).
There will be no KDE edition of 19.0 onwards, however there will be an easy way to install KDE on top of Mint (either a tutorial or script provided by the community) to give you Mint with a KDE desktop.
Installing multiple DEs is a bad idea, almost guaranteed to break something. No truly knowledgeable users do this.
Could someone please explain, in "plain english", what this means ?
Will it be possible to continue to use KDE also for -future versions of LinuxMint (20, 21...) etc. ?

First install another edition (Xfce/Cinnamon/Mate), install KDE, then remove the other desktop manager.
Can this be done easily, or will this require a lot of extra work ?
What are the risk of doing this ?
Getting an "unstable" O/S...?

If i can´t get KDE on LinuxMint without a lot of work, and also might get "problems",
then i will install another O/S, Kubunbtu or Debian, instead...
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xenopeek
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Re: KDE on future versions of Mint (+20)

Post by xenopeek » Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:46 pm

hackerman1 wrote:What is the difference between the "KDE-edition" and "installing KDE on top of Linux Mint" ?
There are three differences, namely the way you install it, what else is on your system afterwards and how it looks.

1. The way you install it
With a KDE edition you can download an ISO from the Linux Mint website that would install Linux Mint to your system with the KDE software. Without a KDE edition you have to first install one of the other Linux Mint editions and then install the KDE software on that. That just means opening Software Manager and installing a number of specific packages to get the KDE software.

This isn't much of an issue as there are meta packages you can use (a meta package is just a convenient way to install a lot of other packages in one go) and otherwise I'll provide easy to follow instructions around the time of Linux Mint 19 to properly install KDE software on one of the other Linux Mint editions.

Linux Mint 18.x KDE editions used the KDE software as maintained by the Kubuntu developers in their backports PPA (providing you with newer versions of KDE with some frequency). With Linux Mint 19 you'll still have the option to use this backports PPA, or you can use the KDE software as available from the main Ubuntu package base repository on which Linux Mint is based. In either case, the KDE software is maintained by the Kubuntu developers.

2. What else is on your system afterwards
With a KDE edition only the KDE software is on your system. Without a KDE edition you would first install one of the other Linux Mint editions and then install the KDE software on that, so you would also have the Cinnamon, MATE or Xfce software on your system. For example that means that you'll have two file managers (the KDE one and the Cinnamon/MATE/Xfce one), two text editors, two calculators and so on.

This isn't much of an issue if you start with Linux Mint 19 Xfce as a base to install the KDE software on. Because the Xfce software is easiest to remove afterwards, leaving you with only the KDE software. Referring back to above, I'll cover that around the release of Linux Mint 19 Xfce. There are no stability risks with this; we're not removing operating system components (those all stay in place), only removing specifically the Xfce software after having install the KDE software as replacement.

3. How it looks
With a Linux Mint edition you get a default theme, icon set, wallpaper and other artwork, and a default configuration for the desktop layout and menu. Those are set by the Linux Mint developers. You can customize these afterwards but the point is, by default a Linux Mint edition is customized to look like Linux Mint. Without a KDE edition you miss those elements and instead will be using the defaults from the KDE developers.

Also this isn't much of an issue as the KDE edition didn't have that many customizations and I'm sure we can cover any small differences also in the instructions for installing KDE on Linux Mint 19 Xfce.

I expect the instructions for adding KDE software on to Linux Mint 19 Xfce and removing Xfce afterwards will be as simple as "run this command to install KDE packages" and then "run that command to remove Xfce packages". Perhaps one additional command to remove Xfce cruft from your home directory and some instructions for customizing the looks if you want that. Perhaps something like a "top 10 things to do after installing KDE" with general tips. Should be easy to follow.
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Re: KDE on future versions of Mint (+20)

Post by Hoser Rob » Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:51 am

Yes, you could install KDE on a Mint box with another DE when Mint KDE support ends. This is simple because Linux is highly modular. Unlike in Windows, the DE is just another bit of app software as far as the OS is concerned.

However there's a BIG but here.

Namely, installing multiple desktops is a REALLY STUPID NOOB IDEA. I've never known of a single knowledgeable Linux user who would do it.

When Mint KDE 18.2 or 18.3 goes EOL, or perhaps sooner, I will HAPPILY install another distro that actually supports KDE. Probably Kubuntu or Neon.

Why in the FLYING FRAK should anyone expect KDE users to support Mint if they don't support their preferred DE?

BTW Ubuntu has the best user support out there. This is a joke compared to theirs, but that could be said for most distros. I already switched from Mint back top Ubuntu before because no one here knew how to solve my support problems at the time.

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Re: KDE on future versions of Mint (+20)

Post by Moem » Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:54 am

Hoser Rob wrote: installing multiple desktops is a REALLY STUPID NOOB IDEA. I've never known of a single knowledgeable Linux user who would do it.
You keep saying that, and yet two people I trust on these things (one forum admin and one Mint developer) say it's safe to install KDE on top of XFCE (or Mate but not Cinnamon). For some reason, I have more faith in their knowledge than in yours... Nothing personal, of course.
Hoser Rob wrote: Why in the FLYING FRAK should anyone expect KDE users to support Mint if they don't support their preferred DE?
Is anyone actually expecting that?
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Re: KDE on future versions of Mint (+20)

Post by tovian » Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:58 pm

I'm getting some good information here... Thanks !!

I don't want to hijack hackerman1's thread, but I have some questions that directly relate to this topic:

1) I'm very disappointed with KDE-Plasma v5 - it seems like a huge downgrade due to the (apparent) removal of valuable features.
Can I install KDE-Plasma v4 over Plasma v5 sort of like installing it over xfce (as described above)?
-or- Could I install Mint 18.3 xfce and install Plasma v4 on top of that (and then remove xfce, of course)

2) If the Mint Devs are going to produce scripts/packages to make KDE so easy to add to Mint 19+ that seems like more work than just building a KDE edition. What are the chances the intention to quit producing a KDE-edition will change back to what it is now?

Thanks for letting me butt in.
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Re: KDE on future versions of Mint (+20)

Post by xenopeek » Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:35 pm

tovian wrote:Can I install KDE-Plasma v4 over Plasma v5 sort of like installing it over xfce (as described above)?
Not easily. KDE 4 is not available on Linux Mint 18 / Ubuntu 16.04 and newer. Perhaps somebody will fork it and continue development, like Trinity project did for KDE 3 (for all the people that coudln't stand KDE 4 :wink:).
tovian wrote:If the Mint Devs are going to produce scripts/packages to make KDE so easy to add to Mint 19+ that seems like more work than just building a KDE edition.
I'm not a Mint dev. If I spend some time to write down and test instructions for installing KDE on Linux Mint 19, that doesn't take time away from developers. All the KDE software is readily available in the package base repositories, no Mint devs involved.
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Re: KDE on future versions of Mint (+20)

Post by tovian » Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:01 pm

First, thanks for the reply and info !!
xenopeek wrote:...for all the people that coudln't stand KDE 4 :wink:)
I'm starting to discover that while KDE does an awful lot of good things it also is (or is becoming) a real PITA.
From my view that project has begun to act a lot like Microsoft, and that seems backwards in the Linux Universe.

xenopeek wrote:no Mint devs involved.
There may be more granular definitions, but I tend to consider anyone who produces (develops) something new - from a script to an OS - to be a "developer".
And, if someone develops code or methods used in the "Mint world", then they could be viewed (perhaps loosely) as "Mint developers" - even if they are technically only on the periphery of the project.
Guess it's a matter of "who works for whom" - further confused by a layer of "semantics" :roll: :lol:
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Re: KDE on future versions of Mint (+20)

Post by Moem » Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:26 pm

tovian wrote:FThere may be more granular definitions, but I tend to consider anyone who produces (develops) something new - from a script to an OS - to be a "developer".
I believe that Xenopeek intends to write instructions meant to be used by people, not computers. :wink:
If that makes him a developer, then we're all developers as soon as we help someone else here on this forum, by giving them instructions.
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Re: KDE on future versions of Mint (+20)

Post by lmuserx4849 » Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:50 am

Is xenopeek saying that any linux mint after 18, you could install xfce (something small) from the iso and then add the kubuntu repo and install kde plasma?

What is the advantage to that?

All the nice customization that Clem and folks do would not be there, like the device manager, update manager, software manager, etc, correct?

But I suppose you would get the base system customization, right? Or is that coming from Ubuntu?

It does seem like a decision between choose your distro or choose your desktop. I'm testing the waters with Cinnamon. I've been with KDE since 3, and just when 4 was getting stable, they went to 5. From what I've been reading online, keeping up with kde is quite demanding.

Will LMDE still be maintained? Which desktops?

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Re: KDE on future versions of Mint (+20)

Post by xenopeek » Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:57 am

lmuserx4849 wrote:Is xenopeek saying that any linux mint after 18, you could install xfce (something small) from the iso and then add the kubuntu repo and install kde plasma?
Yes.
lmuserx4849 wrote:All the nice customization that Clem and folks do would not be there, like the device manager, update manager, software manager, etc, correct?
No. Device Manager, Update Manager and Software Manager aren't "customizations" like themes and other default user configuration. These are programs developed by Linux Mint and work with any desktop environment you install on Linux Mint. These and other Linux Mint programs would be the point of using Linux Mint with KDE.
lmuserx4849 wrote:Will LMDE still be maintained? Which desktops?
Yes. LMDE 3 will only ship a Cinnamon edition but as with above, you can install any other desktop environment on it that you want.
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Re: KDE on future versions of Mint (+20)

Post by catweazel » Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:58 am

lmuserx4849 wrote:Is xenopeek saying that any linux mint after 18, you could install xfce (something small) from the iso and then add the kubuntu repo and install kde plasma?
Yes.
What is the advantage to that?
This is the advantage:
All the nice customization that Clem and folks do
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Re: KDE on future versions of Mint (+20)

Post by kc1di » Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:25 am

Thank You xenopeek for you work on this, It will be appreciated :)
Easy tips : https://sites.google.com/site/easylinuxtipsproject/
Linux Mint Installation Guide: http://linuxmint-installation-guide.rea ... en/latest/
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Re: KDE on future versions of Mint (+20)

Post by lmuserx4849 » Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:20 pm

catweazel wrote:
lmuserx4849 wrote:Is xenopeek saying that any linux mint after 18, you could install xfce (something small) from the iso and then add the kubuntu repo and install kde plasma?
Yes.
What is the advantage to that?
This is the advantage:
All the nice customization that Clem and folks do
Maybe "advantage" was the wrong choice of words. I'm just trying to understand where all the pieces come from.

Does "This" == "linuxmint forums"?

But "All software & modifications" == "Ubuntu"?

PS: I never quite sure if I should say "thank you" every time or is it a waste of bits & bytes. My appreciate for linux mint and the community is immeasurable.

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Re: KDE on future versions of Mint (+20)

Post by catweazel » Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:22 pm

lmuserx4849 wrote:Does "This" == "linuxmint forums"?
No, it means...
All the nice customization that Clem and folks do
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^that.
PS: I never quite sure if I should say "thank you" every time or is it a waste of bits & bytes. My appreciate for linux mint and the community is immeasurable.
It's nice to receive thank you's, and you're welcome.
A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it. - Max Planck

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Re: KDE on future versions of Mint (+20)

Post by dth2 » Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:54 pm

Code: Select all

Namely, installing multiple desktops is a REALLY STUPID NOOB IDEA. I've never known of a single knowledgeable Linux user who would do it.
I don't know whether or not this is just a Mint issue as Opensuse lets you have install multiple different DEs on the same system. For example I use KDE Plasma and also have Gnome3 installed plus xfce.

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Re: KDE on future versions of Mint (+20)

Post by o-l-d » Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:38 am

Screenshot_20171218_013244.png
The "future" is here...at least until 2021. Everything is working flawlessly after much "tweaking". :mrgreen:
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