KDE5 is still disaster

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RichardR
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Re: KDE5 is still disaster

Post by RichardR » Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:25 pm

RichardR wrote:
"... as I heard that KDE5 marks the end of the whole KDE desktop system anyway."

Link or source?
My apologies, I was rather imprecise. From what I read, Linux Mint will be dropping the KDE desktop as of release 19: https://itsfoss.com/linux-mint-drops-kde/
It appears that KDE kan still be installed on top of Mint 19, but there will no longer be a separate KDE version.

lmuserx4849
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Re: KDE5 is still disaster

Post by lmuserx4849 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:16 pm

I woudn't call it a disaster, but a disappointment that leads to the same result. Every time I think about upgrading to KDE5 (LM17.3/KDE4), I open a VM with a KDE5 desktop (from another distro) and I change my mind. I took the ride from 3 to 4. Just when it started getting stable, they went to 5. Is it worth investing time again? How many more years of instability. They had 5 different Desktop Views in kde4, 2 in kde5. I spent a lot of time trying to get Grouping Desktop and Groups to work. A number of features introduced in 4, don't exist in 5, so knowledge was nontransferable and time wasted. And now with a qt6 in the works. Are we in for a repeat? Qt6 and Wayland are going to make for some interesting times. It might be a great experimental desktop, but imho not a practical stable office desktop for use today. Just simple things that I have done for years can cause a crash. They have changed locations of config files multiple times. I just tried a script that uses kdialog, --caption is no longer supported. No problem, use --title. But the progress bar property wasCancelled doesn't work and the example at techbase works differently in kde5 than kde4. Someone worked really hard on the kde4 doc at techbase.kde.org, userbase.kde.org, community.kde.org. It got me through the kde4 learning curve, but it hasn't been updated to reflect kde5. The environment of support isn't as much fun and tempers are short.

I stopped using KDE's PIM in 4, but that also meant getting rid of little things like kalarm. I like konsole, dolphin, okular, k3b, kate. I have some code invested in kate. Little things are annoying, like renaming ksnapshot, Spectacle. Although I read something about replacing that with KScreenGenie. And I'm not a fan of the flat icons and a number of the new UI's. It just doesn't seem as intuitive and natural.

In some ways, I feel this is a decision between qt and gtk. I read once that while lxde was upgrading to gnome3 they decided to change to qt, thus lxqt. But it seems they both exist. lxde is gtk based and lxqt is qt based. kde is qt based, while cinnamon, mate, xfce gnome are gtk based. There seems to be a greater relationship disconnect between qt and kde, than there is between gtk and gnome/cinnamon/mate, so kde devs are more susceptible to what/when qt does things which amplifies the problems. If you work with vendors and other software, you begin to notice where they have problems and their preferences.

blue_bullet
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Re: KDE5 is still disaster

Post by blue_bullet » Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:13 pm

@lmuserx4849,
I stopped using KDE's PIM in 4, but that also meant getting rid of little things like kalarm.
Why did you stop using PIM? I had to switch to Kalarm to run jobs that cron could no longer run in Linux Mint 17.x KDE. google01103 solved my cron problem over on the KDE Forum when I got no help here.
https://forum.kde.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=119541

I appreciate your observations and insights as to what is going on in the latest KDE efforts. For many things it seems as though they ignored what was done in KDE4 and started anew. There may be good reasons for doing that but not at a loss of functionality. That is the reason I left Ubuntu for Linux Mint when the gnome devs dumbed down Natilus.

For now I continue to use LM 17.3 KDE and keep a version of 18.3 KDE updated on an old HP laptop to watch it. I cannot move there until they fix what they have ignored. LM 17.3 KDE is supported until April 2019 so I have some time.

o-l-d
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Re: KDE5 is still disaster

Post by o-l-d » Fri Feb 02, 2018 5:12 pm

Just upgraded today and everything is still working flawlessly :D

@lastmintkde ~ $ inxi -Fxz
System: Host: lastmintkde Kernel: 4.13.0-32-generic x86_64 (64 bit gcc: 5.4.0)
Desktop: KDE Plasma 5.12.0 (Qt 5.9.3) Distro: Linux Mint 18.3 Sylvia

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noc
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Re: KDE5 is still disaster

Post by noc » Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:41 pm

I have a somewhat different experience with KDE. Apart of having to disable baloo because of it eating up all my system's resources, most things went smoothly until it completely broke itself for no reason.

After using KDE periodically for years, I have to say that it's more unstable/complicated than what I like. The best DEs between modern and useful are Cinnamon, Budgie and MATE for me. (Well I wish that Cinnamon's menu effects could revert back to the non-choppy ones, but still a great Desktop)

Anyway, if you still need to run KDE I would recommend you to give Manjaro a chance instead of building up an unstable dependency hell.
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Jim Hauser
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Re: KDE5 is still disaster

Post by Jim Hauser » Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:24 pm

o-l-d wrote:Just upgraded today and everything is still working flawlessly :D

@lastmintkde ~ $ inxi -Fxz
System: Host: lastmintkde Kernel: 4.13.0-32-generic x86_64 (64 bit gcc: 5.4.0)
Desktop: KDE Plasma 5.12.0 (Qt 5.9.3) Distro: Linux Mint 18.3 Sylvia
Same here, same kernel, same desktop, same distro edition... no problems.

Hoser Rob
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Re: KDE5 is still disaster

Post by Hoser Rob » Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:16 am

Jim Hauser wrote:
o-l-d wrote:Just upgraded today and everything is still working flawlessly :D

@lastmintkde ~ $ inxi -Fxz
System: Host: lastmintkde Kernel: 4.13.0-32-generic x86_64 (64 bit gcc: 5.4.0)
Desktop: KDE Plasma 5.12.0 (Qt 5.9.3) Distro: Linux Mint 18.3 Sylvia
Same here, same kernel, same desktop, same distro edition... no problems.
Same here. I actually found Cinnamon and Xfce buggier.

jack rooster
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Re: KDE5 is still disaster

Post by jack rooster » Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:07 pm

I sadly have to agree. I switched to Linux full-time in 2012 with Mint KDE. Ever since Mint announced that they were dropping the KDE edition I've been looking for a replacement distro. I've tried Mint KDE 18.x, OpenSUSE, Manjaro, Maui, Kubuntu and Neon and have had MAJOR problems with all of them. Maybe in a year or so it'll be stable enough to use. Right now I'm using Cinnamon and Mate but it's like going from a brand new, deluxe Mercedes to an old-style VW Beetle.
Lenovo T430U laptop, 4GB RAM, 250GB Samsung SSD, Linux Mint 17.3 KDE 64-bit

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Re: KDE5 is still disaster

Post by tovian » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:45 pm

FYI:

Because there did not already seem to be one... I started a new thread for those of us who use and like KDE to discuss alternatives given that Mint intends to drop the KDE distro.

THIS THREAD is where I hope we can exchange information on alternatives. I am currently trying several different distro's, but I'm interested in the ideas and experiences that other folks have.


BTW: My main gripe with KDE-5 vs KDE-4 is that with "5" I can no longer specify the desktop font. I prefer a light, plain-color desktop background - which REQUIRES a dark font. The white font, even shadowed, is totally unusable by my old eyes. KDE-4 allows the user to change the typeface (group), the color, and some other characteristics (and not have to jump through hoops to do it). I joined the KDE forum and submitted a question about the fonts in KDE-5, but they basically ignored me. Linux (and the DE publishers) had an opportunity to give disgruntled Windows users a SUPER excuse to use Linux, but it seems everybody is running away from this opportunity instead of running WITH it.
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Re: KDE5 is still disaster

Post by lotech » Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:49 am

+1, I tried to like KDE but couldn't, I gave it up few years ago and never return. To me it is just another m$ win, too much of eyes candies, I disable the bouncing flashy thingy and the wallet after installation, and the taskbar acting weird whenever I put things to it, can never align properly, I like Gnome and Cinnamon/Mate more, sorry to say but I am glad that Mint dump KDE !
Pepi wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:13 am
I gave up on KDE around 6 months ago. Just too many weird things happening.
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Re: KDE5 is still disaster

Post by cottfcfan » Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:18 am

I find it interesting how peoples perception of Plasma 5 varies so considerably. Last October I installed KDE Neon LTS as a dual boot with XFCE, & I have to say it has ran flawlessly ever since. In fact I would go as far as to say that in my 10 years using Linux, it is the most reliable, stable distro I have used. I must admit though that I keep it as minimalistic as possible, disabling a lot of the effects, baloo etc.. It is also blazing fast & uses less resources than XFCE on the same machine. IMO Neon is exactly what KDE should be. SolydK isn't bad either, if Debian is important to you. Just my thoughts. :D

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Re: KDE5 is still disaster

Post by jglen490 » Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:50 am

It's great that some users want to experiment with "frankendistros" and to mix and match various parts. It is what Linux is about.

However, when doing so results in a "disaster" and to then blame the tools being used is somewhat disingenuous. I've been using KDE-based distros for about 12 years now and have been through all the transitions to KDE3, KDE4, KDE5. All were greeted with boos and rotten tomatoes - until each succeeding level actually worked better than the previous. I find that my Kubuntu 16.04 on my desktop machine works better, is more stable, and less problematic than ever.

Any software can be developed to be completely compatible with previous versions, but what you end up with at some point is some monstrosity that does nothing but eat resources and does no useful work. Live with the transitions, move on, enjoy the results.

But if you choose to live on the edge, don't blame the tools that you used to get you there.
I feel more like I do than I did when I got here.
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aes2011
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Re: KDE5 is still disaster

Post by aes2011 » Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:26 am

tovian wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:45 pm
... I joined the KDE forum and submitted a question about the fonts in KDE-5, ...
Link to your question?

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Re: KDE5 is still disaster

Post by tovian » Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:39 pm

aes2011 wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:26 am
tovian wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:45 pm
... I joined the KDE forum and submitted a question about the fonts in KDE-5, ...
Link to your question?
Here 'tis...

https://forum.kde.org/viewtopic.php?f=289&t=142725

When I stated that they basically ignored me - well - you can judge for yourself.
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jglen490
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Re: KDE5 is still disaster

Post by jglen490 » Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:53 pm

Actually, they didn't ignore you, but it did take time to try and find an answer for you. The fact that the answer was "I don't know" shouldn't be considered as an affront to you. It was an honest answer.

Everyone has a different experience and that experience is shaped by expectations. Mine's been great, your's maybe not so much. So move on to something else, I moved from the Mandrake/Mandriva world to Kubuntu. I've tried with almost all the varieties of BSD. Some users think that BSD is the greatest, other - no. I really liked Mandrake/Mandriva, but they started going in a direction that I didn't like. So far Kubuntu and Lint Mint - while not perfect - are great pieces of work.

The change to KDE5 was driven by an even more fundamental change in the QT framework that is and was out of the control of the KDE development team. No one has the resources to keep everything current, so adapt and live another day. And that too is painful, but necessary.

I like the KDE DE, but I also like Mate as a DE. So I use KDE on my desktop machine, which my prime computing home, and I use LM 18.2 Mate on my lower powered laptop. Both are stable and useful, and support my needs for a computer platform. Neither, in my mind, is superior to the other. Jumping from one to the other is almost transparent, because both function the same even with different toolsets.

Explore, live, learn, adapt, move on when a tool doesn't work for you.
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aes2011
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Re: KDE5 is still disaster

Post by aes2011 » Sat Feb 24, 2018 4:01 am

tovian wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:39 pm
aes2011 wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:26 am
tovian wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:45 pm
... I joined the KDE forum and submitted a question about the fonts in KDE-5, ...
Link to your question?
Here 'tis...

https://forum.kde.org/viewtopic.php?f=289&t=142725

When I stated that they basically ignored me - well - you can judge for yourself.
Thanks! One of the reasons for having text shadows is to ensure that text is visible against any background/wallpaper. I learned that when I was trying to make a set of very minimal svg icons. Of course, I knew what sort of background I wanted. But for someone who used another background, having no shadow may have made icons/text difficult to see/read.

Anyway, all the best with whatever you choose :)

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tovian
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Re: KDE5 is still disaster

Post by tovian » Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:48 am

aes2011 wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 4:01 am
One of the reasons for having text shadows is to ensure that text is visible against any background/wallpaper...
Thanks for your "best wishes". You can click the thumbnail below to see my complaint. The background is my "custom" color of choice because it is light, but not offensively bright. You may think that white fonts with shadows are visible against any background, but try using the settings below for one full day. If your eyes are even a little "older" YOU WILL GO BLIND trying to read that CRAP.
Image


As far as the response from the KDE forum... you may consider that - ONE person (who has amassed just over a thousand posts in ten years), who also is not noted as a developer, an administrator, or even a moderator, telling you that "there may be a reason, I don't know" - is a perfectly valid and acceptable response. That is your business and I don't argue with it. However, it is a totally unacceptable response for me... especially if I am researching a client problem. I do not consider it an affront to me; I consider it an affront to the intelligence of everyone (including you). If you ever ask me a question and I reply with "there may be a reason, I don't know", I am giving you permission right here and now to take me out back and beat on me until I show you a little more respect.

I've had dealings with the communities (forums) in a number of different areas over the years. I have even served as a moderator on a fairly well attended board. But I have never encountered any situation where there was such a lack of wanting/trying to help someone who was seeking important (but NOT top-secret) information.
“I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part!"
"We're just the guys to do it.”

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Re: KDE5 is still disaster

Post by o-l-d » Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:38 am

FrankenMint KDE is still fast and stable. Updates have caused no problems at all.

@last-mint-kde ~ $ inxi -Fxz
System: Host: last-mint-kde Kernel: 4.13.0-37-generic x86_64 (64 bit gcc: 5.4.0)
Desktop: KDE Plasma 5.12.4 (Qt 5.10.0) Distro: Linux Mint 18.3 Sylvia

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