Mono in KDE CE?

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EnthusOcn
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Mono in KDE CE?

Post by EnthusOcn »

Good day everyone!

As I'm sure you all know there are rather intense feelings surrounding Mono these days. At the risk are starting a flame war, may I ask if Mono is installed in the KDE CE?

I've noticed the 4 programs every uses to say how needed mono is--F-Spot, TomBoy, Gnome-Do, Banshee--are all Gnome programs and not programs I use. In the KDE CE is Mono simply a package that I can install as a dependence for the above, or is it for some reason all ready installed? In Gloria?
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DrHu
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Re: Mono in KDE CE?

Post by DrHu »

EnthusOcn wrote:In the KDE CE is Mono simply a package that I can install as a dependence for the above, or is it for some reason all ready installed? In Gloria?
My bet, is yes..
--since KDE will likely not be dependent on mono development, and if you have a KDE pure install, you are likely not to need/use mono at all..

http://blogs.fsfe.org/tonnerre/archives/13
http://ubuntulinuxhelp.com/mono-discuss ... developer/
might not be the big deal it is thought to be.., I am not that worried, I would have preferred it wasn't there but c'est la vie.
Gnome goes Mono and jumps into the Patent Trap
A couple of years back, the Gnome desktop environment developers have taken the decision to reengineer the Gnome desktop around the Mono framework. This decision has mainly been influenced by the main Mono developer Miguel de Icaza, who is a very vocal employee of Novell. Recent developments thus request us to recall the pieces of the puzzle in order to understand what might really be going on.
Influence and preference of lead developer(s), like Miguel de Icaza; in the case of Novell, you night have noticed they switched from KDE to Gnome as their install desktop or preferred choice
--those kind of business decisions tend to set off a KDE vs Gnome flame-war..

KDE also re-engineered their desktop, and built KDE 4x as their next version(s)..
http://www.kde.org/
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rec9140
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Re: Mono in KDE CE?

Post by rec9140 »

NOT interested in mono its a disease on the PC and human side..

I use mononono http://tim.thechases.com/mononono/ to banish such crap on Elyssa..

NO MONO! NO! NO ! NO ! NO! NO!

The fact the gnome/ms fan boi miguel is involved and mono is for C#/.net all ms crap. NO THANKS!

I can't stand gnome or miguel and thats enough, not to mention the huge lawsuit torpedo this is to linux..

Just say no to mono! Practice safe computing and don't let trojans like mono on your system!
Julep....mixing.....KDE Done right, and minty.
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Fred
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Re: Mono in KDE CE?

Post by Fred »

I can't help but smile at the irony in this debate about mono. Once upon a time, Gnome didn't exist. KDE was the 800 lb. gorilla of GUI desktop environments. There were others but KDE was the biggest and most popular. It was based on the QT tools and libraries from TrollTech.

QT was not licensed as GPL but was close. At the time I couldn't really see a threat by using QT's license to build KDE. But there was a constant drum beat from the community that something must be done about KDE. The GNU started and sanction the Gnome project to make a "free" desktop environment. When the Gnome desktop was still in its' early childhood TrollTech dual licensed QT to GPL, which should have ended the controversy. Gnome continued to develop however, and is what you now see today.

I just think it is a little funny that we have come full circle. Now KDE is indisputably a "free" DE in every sense of the word, and Gnome is flirting with mono. Arguably a "non-free," potentially patented technology.

I personally don't see a creditable threat to individuals and small distros from a few mono applications here and there. Large organizations, ie with money, might not be so safe. It is the slippery slop that I fear. If over time, the Gnome foundation allows mono to become embedded in the infrastructure, it could be a real problem for Gnome. After all, how long did it take Microsoft to start going after companies using FAT32.

It would be a mistake to read too much into the weasel statements Microsoft has made about mono being ok. They did the same thing many times over the years about FAT 32, and you see how that worked out don't you? Statements and position papers are valid only until the ink drys or the last word is uttered. They are not legally binding. A number of reputable patent attorneys have weighed in on the latest move to exempt the two parts of mono that are Ecma standardized. Almost to a man they have said there are two many holes that Microsoft can slip through for GPL software. Besides, the "Community Promise" only covers a small part of mono.

If I were Clem, I wouldn't worry about it. At least not at this point in time. If I were the Red hat CEO, I wouldn't touch mono with a ten foot pole. :-) I fear it would come back to haunt me years down the road. Think "back royalties."

If I were the Gnome foundation I would be very careful not to slip down that slope that could potentially destroy, or at least cripple Gnome.

Fred

EDIT: I am reminded of a story I once heard. I know, you don't want to hear it, but I am going to tell it anyway. :-)

Once upon a time, there was a mouse and a scorpion that lived on an island in a river. It had rained very hard for several days and the river was rising fast. It became obvious to the mouse and the scorpion that if they stayed on the island they would drown.

The scorpion went to the mouse and asked if he could please get on his back and ride to the far shore. You see, the scorpion couldn't swim. The mouse was quit skeptical of the arrangement as he feared the scorpion's sting of death. The scorpion pleaded and convinced the mouse that it would be foolish for the scorpion to sting the mouse. If he did he would drown also.

The mouse relented and they started off toward the far shore. When they were about half way there the scorpion raised his tail and delivered a deadly sting to the mouse. The mouse asked why he had done that. As the mouse was dying and the scorpion was drowning the scorpion said, "What did you expect, I am a scorpion. That is what I do. I am a slave to my genes. I couldn't help it." :-)

Fred
Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over and each time expecting a different result.

Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on the menu. Liberty is an armed lamb protesting the electoral outcome. A Republic negates the need for an armed protest.
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DrHu
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Re: Mono in KDE CE?

Post by DrHu »

Fred wrote:If over time, the Gnome foundation allows mono to become embedded in the infrastructure, it could be a real problem for Gnome. After all, how long did it take Microsoft to start going after companies using FAT32.
I think that process is starting and gathering steam
--it almost can't be avoided: if the developer of Mono, and a lead in Gnome wants to use mono everywhere, every-time, that slope is already slipping, I just hope it doesn't become the avalanche I expect it to be
--It is also a mistake to think that it will have minimal impact, nor cause any future issues, just because Microsoft says so..
Fred wrote:The GNU started and sanction the Gnome project to make a "free" desktop environment. When the Gnome desktop was still in its' early childhood TrollTech dual licensed QT to GPL, which should have ended the controversy. Gnome continued to develop however, and is what you now see today.
Yes, as soon as Troltech adjusted their license that should have been it, there should have been no more complaints, the flame-wars should have died down..

I don't use Twitter, but I came across Larry David's (Curb your Enthusiasm) comments in a newspaper
what is this twitter
where is it
I'm ready
Hello ?
I think I broke twitter
--something like that
Last edited by DrHu on Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Boo
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Re: Mono in KDE CE?

Post by Boo »

I'm not interested in mono so I'll try to keep it out.

Boo
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Now where was i going? Oh yes, crazy!
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rec9140
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Re: Mono in KDE CE?

Post by rec9140 »

Boo wrote:I'm not interested in mono so I'll try to keep it out.
Great! ! ! !

But... we have a problem:

From the Gloria release notes;
Firefox now comes with the Moonlight plugin and support for Silverlight 1.x
That should be removed then.
Julep....mixing.....KDE Done right, and minty.
http://www.juleplinux.com

Its been a great 3 year run! Thanks for the fish.. but time for new waters....
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EnthusOcn
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Re: Mono in KDE CE?

Post by EnthusOcn »

Fred wrote:I just think it is a little funny that we have come full circle. Now KDE is indisputably a "free" DE in every sense of the word, and Gnome is flirting with mono. Arguably a "non-free," potentially patented technology.
I noticed the irony as well. Until now, I've been wondering if anyone else did.
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linuxviolin
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Re: Mono in KDE CE?

Post by linuxviolin »

Fred wrote:I personally don't see a creditable threat to individuals and small distros from a few mono applications here and there.
One problem is not about patents or the technology but about of the fact that we don't need Mono! It exits already many of excellent languages for the developpers but because the stupid GNOME guys who believe that life didn’t exist before Gtk# you can now happily continue to develop their petty GUI applets who implement things that are doable in any of the other languages and frameworks available under Linux (and GNOME). But when they’re need to do something serious, such an enterprise Web-based application…

In the end maybe we'll end up using apps written by mediocre programmers with (a lot of) free time who can't use "more complicated languages".

Python… Python was meant to be a scripting language. And there are a lot of dynamic languages...

The advocates of the “need of Mono on Linux” don’t require Mono for something like (random example) “ASP.NET business portals using the Maverick MVC framework” — something I could understand from a business logic standpoint —, but for petty GUI applications written in Gtk#! (Once again, how could the world even exist prior to the Mono reimplementation of .NET?)

We don’t need Mono (e.g. Gnotes), the same way we don’t need Java. It’s not just about Microsoft. It’s about stupid people who try to force some technologies there where they’re not needed. Just because some idiots started to write some specific desktop applications in Mono (although there were a plethora of other possible choices), because some other people included them into GNOME and as applications installed by default in their distros, and then because some people started to get used with those applications… now we should all accept and even love Mono?

Based on the same approach, OpenOffice.org should never have happened, because… «Whatever Microsoft haters say, the reality is that there is no at par substitute for Microsoft Office applications.» So everyone should be using now Microsoft Office under WINE, no matter the cost of the license!

There was no «at pair substitute» for Microsoft Windows as a desktop OS. There was no «at pair substitute» for Microsoft Office as a productivity suite. And so on. Why haven’t people accepted the dictate of the monoculture?

Because some of them were not that stupid. But right now, they are. They adopted the Mono-culture.

P.S.=People NEED Mono just because 3 "morons" developed 3 good desktop applications using Mono?
And Silverlight? Moonlight? What for? For a **** even more smelling than Macromedia/Adobe Flash? People seems to like the bling-bling. Why don't you buy a Mac instead?

There is nothing like using unnecessarily complex frameworks and dependencies just to print "Hello world" in a GUI window. There is nothing like using C# when C, C++, Python or anything else would do. I mean, Gtk# instead of Gtk+, gtkmm, PyGtk. Or even PyQt! Adding Mono dependencies for a stupid bloody little application is idiotic!

Note that I would have said the same if GNOME-based distro would ship Java apps instead of C# apps.

This level of complex dependencies is unneeded.

Elegance is simple. Too much is too much.

We don't need a gun to kill a fly. And I don't want to be required that gun.
K.I.S.S. ===> "Keep It Simple, Stupid"
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." (Leonardo da Vinci)
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." (Albert Einstein)
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rec9140
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Re: Mono in KDE CE?

Post by rec9140 »

EnthusOcn wrote:
Fred wrote:I just think it is a little funny that we have come full circle. Now KDE is indisputably a "free" DE in every sense of the word, and Gnome is flirting with mono. Arguably a "non-free," potentially patented technology.
I noticed the irony as well. Until now, I've been wondering if anyone else did.
I've been thru the whole Trolltech(Nokia) Qt issue, and I don't see it in the same light. Yes I prefer KDE uber alles, but Qt, Gtk, or what ever other toolkit you throw out there means pretty much zero, as I don't program GUI stuff

ms is far worse of a beast than Qualcomm/Trolltech could/is. Nokia seems to have gotten the hint and is in line with the Linux community.

ms is NOT, they are out to kill Linux, the community and anything else that interferes with their greed (YES GREED!, Profit is one thing, greed is not the same, and yes I am fully aware that companies are in business to make money, the complete and utter LACK OF CORPORATE MORALITY at 99.9999999999% of companies is disgusting and leads to the MONOPOLISTIC GREED WHORING of today.)

ms mono/moonblight/silverblight et al needs to be banished and kicked out!

gnome may as well be kicked out too, since ms fan[gnome]boi is nothing but an ms shill now and will no doubt be mono dependent and based shortly. No quams, I dislike gnome with a passion even more than KDE 4 (although not by much). So its loss and self destruction via mono is no big deal to me, and yes I will do a dance when it dies and gets kicked to the curb.

Its really, really, really sad to see Suse run[ed] by novell. :( Won't touch it now with a 10ft pole. Other things before that moved me away from it, as I personally prefer Debian based systems.

I chose to move to Linux at home and the office, to GET AWAY FROM the ms monster, and want nothing to do with any thing related to them, period. I am doing everything in my power to be sure that what I ever I do work wise works on Linux FIRST AND FOREMOST and then works for winlusers. Works in Konqi? Yes. Breaks ie? Oh well, so sad, cry me a river. Works in other COMPLIANT browsers (opera, chrome, fireturd)? done. Company was fired for doing work in asp/.net, another was not even considered due to same thing asp/.net/ocx crap.....The second reacted "...really? Your not going to consider our stuff because its win based? Don't you use asp/.net/iis..... UH NO! NO! NO! NO! well your not in line with the rest ....yadda yadda..." NO YOUR not inline with the rest of the server world which is LINUX, UNIX, BSD, Solaris by an overwhelming majority.

The simple fact of saving $3,000 on software that was replaced by something that cost $0 was enough to get some people to wake up.

Over the last year, I've grown to have less than zero tolerance for companies which don't support Linux for their software and hardware, sans ms/novell. Matter of fact I am pretty rude about it with some. I've ended conference calls in about 2 minutes because of non Linux support.

so mono etc. needs to go!
Julep....mixing.....KDE Done right, and minty.
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Its been a great 3 year run! Thanks for the fish.. but time for new waters....
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Re: Mono in KDE CE?

Post by Joaquin »

A lot of people involved in serious programming love C#. It's a language very easy to use for any programming job you could need at business (database access, forms, etc. ).

I first used Java and get bored of how tricky the language were, the cryptic error messages and some strong limitations. When I tried C#, it was a surprise how well it copied Java but with enough intelligence to correct all nasty aspects of Java (anyway Java is much better than the awful C++). I think that most people who has tried C# would never touch C++ or Java if they had the option.

As you can imagine, I use C# at my job (I have the option to choose any programming language I like), and I would like to do the same at home, where I use Linux I NEED MONO!!!

The only point is that you can't use windows form designer with mono-develop, and you have to use GTK# (pufff)
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DrHu
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Re: Mono in KDE CE?

Post by DrHu »

Joaquin wrote:As you can imagine, I use C# at my job (I have the option to choose any programming language I like), and I would like to do the same at home, where I use Linux I NEED MONO!!!
You must have a very understanding manager(boss), because programming staff usually aren't allowed to decide anything in regard to frameworks used, computer language choice or development methodologies to be applied..

The idea that C or C++ is a great applications language is simply a popularization trend that came about over time, when Pascal, Cobol, Fortran and Java, as well as many other computer languages were overwhelmed by market forces..

I have looked at C# and it is pretty much OK as a language, however i don't really like the .net framework being assigned/installed to every computer (windows OS that is) in order to run some .net application

Oh, I still quite like Pascal
--and dynamic languages like Lisp, Python etc..
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