Stuck with Mint 5

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Toxic
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Stuck with Mint 5

Post by Toxic »

Kde4 takes away everything I love about Kde. I would love to be able to use the latest Mint, but I don't want to have to give up what I love best about my desktop. I see a ton of people rush to the defense of Kde4 and I'm glad it works for you. But when you have found what you like and then the choice is snatched from you it sucks. I have been with Elyssa Kde ce since the day it was released (and Daryna before that). I had to install the 2.6.24-25 kernel to get my Nvidia card working, which broke mintinstall & the fix broken packages feature in recovery mode. But even with these small problems, the thought of moving to Kde4 or Gnome is unsettling at best.
exploder
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Re: Stuck with Mint 5

Post by exploder »

Have you checked out KDE 4 recently? KDE 4 has come a long way since it was introduced. I was not much of a KDE fan until recently, KDE 4.2.4 was the turning point and 4.3.3 is even better. The functionality is coming back and application development for KDE 4 has picked up quite a bit now. KDE progressed through the 3x series and it's doing the same thing now. KDE 3x is no longer getting updates and distros are dropping it. Give Mint 8 KDE CE a try when it comes out and see what you think. :)
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Re: Stuck with Mint 5

Post by Cubby »

Hi Toxic,

There's nothing wrong with sticking with Mint KDE 5 Elyssa. Maybe using with hardware that isn't the newest is the best approach to using an older release. I'm using it as well but I am also trying out KDE4 desktop version which is gradually improving over time, and by Spring, there should be leaps of improvements with it as it awaits the latest qt version. One thing I notice is that I have gotten used to KDE4 since using it now for about 6 months, and with my recent install of Mint KDE 5 Elyssa using 3.5.10 desktop, I feel a bit awkward in using this version. How the memory forgets. :oops: :)
Athlon 64 FX-57, Asus A8N-E, nForce4 chipset, video card NX8500GT GeForce, sound card bGears b-Enspirer w/ audio contlr: CMI8788 [Oxygen], 4G RAM, Sata WD hd 160G + 320G. Boot XP Pro nLite and a few other Linux distros.
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Re: Stuck with Mint 5

Post by dequire »

They'll all look at me and say,
Hey look at him! I'll never live that way.
But that's okay -
They're just afraid to change.
- Shannon Hoon

The Blue Mint
Toxic
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Re: Stuck with Mint 5

Post by Toxic »

exploder:
Yes I have copies of each release as it comes out. Until I can customize it to my liking, I will have to go with what I have.

Cubby:
I will be watching for the spring release, but I don't think it is going the way I want. I hope I'm wrong.

dequire:
Thanks for the heads up. I do have a copy of the Jaunty KDE3.5 version and found it to be OK but I definitely miss the Mintyness. I will give the kamic a try though.
pcdoctor

Re: Stuck with Mint 5

Post by pcdoctor »

I'm in the same boat. I use Mint 5 KDE also. I hope Mint 9 KDE keeps me happy. I'm waiting until 9 because I prefer the LTS versions.
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Re: Stuck with Mint 5

Post by rec9140 »

THIS SHOULD be the BASE for KMint and not the fubar'd KVista version. :evil:


And its KVista thats not ready for the real world, not the other way around. :twisted:
Julep....mixing.....KDE Done right, and minty.
http://www.juleplinux.com

Its been a great 3 year run! Thanks for the fish.. but time for new waters....
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Re: Stuck with Mint 5

Post by dequire »

rec9140 wrote:
THIS SHOULD be the BASE for KMint and not the fubar'd KVista version. :evil:


And its KVista thats not ready for the real world, not the other way around. :twisted:
Unfortunately I would have to disagree greatly. But at least 3.5.10 is still around for those who want it. I can't go back to a DE that was developed 10 years ago and that the devs said has no future because of the codebase. KDE4 and QT are the way to go. BTW - 4.3.4 is awesome!

Also, I've talked to some of the developers. KDE4's intent is not to emulate Windows at all. It's more like the other way around. If anything, KDE4 looks more like Apple's DE - Though Windows 7 looks a lot like KDE4. KDE4 came out 2 years ago.
They'll all look at me and say,
Hey look at him! I'll never live that way.
But that's okay -
They're just afraid to change.
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rec9140
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Re: Stuck with Mint 5

Post by rec9140 »

dequire wrote:Unfortunately I would have to disagree greatly. But at least 3.5.10 is still around for those who want it. I can't go back to a DE that was developed 10 years ago and that the devs said has no future because of the codebase. KDE4 and QT are the way to go. BTW - 4.3.4 is awesome!
We are NOT going to agree on this... I've tried all the various releases of KDE 4.x, its NOT UP TO PAR. Not even close.

Want to rewrite using Qt4 fine, start with 3.5.10.

We are on differing sides of what my PC should do and how it operates.

I will waste DVD(s) to test out things, but I will be taking a recently just built PC and laptop to this Kubntu version, its a shame I'll have to spend hours redoing what made KMint fantastic... ready to go out of the box.... but KDE 4.x is not!

I've loved KDE till 4, and its really a shame to see the best WM go down the drain, YES DOWN THE DRAIN.
Julep....mixing.....KDE Done right, and minty.
http://www.juleplinux.com

Its been a great 3 year run! Thanks for the fish.. but time for new waters....
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Re: Stuck with Mint 5

Post by exploder »

rec9140, a lot of people have the same point of view as you. Mepis and PCLinux plan to continue offering a KDE 3.5.10 version. Out of curiosity, have you looked at Mandriva 2010? The only reason I ask is because their community was not fond of the idea of KDE 4 and they used a lot of ideas from the community to make 2010 more like KDE 3.5.10. I am just throwing that in as an idea, not to change your point of view. :)
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Re: Stuck with Mint 5

Post by dequire »

exploder wrote:rec9140, a lot of people have the same point of view as you. Mepis and PCLinux plan to continue offering a KDE 3.5.10 version. Out of curiosity, have you looked at Mandriva 2010? The only reason I ask is because their community was not fond of the idea of KDE 4 and they used a lot of ideas from the community to make 2010 more like KDE 3.5.10. I am just throwing that in as an idea, not to change your point of view. :)
Interesting, Exploder. I did not realize the ties Mandriva had with KDE 3.5. I downloaded the .iso a while ago but haven't loaded it as of yet.

@rec9140 at least we agree Mint is awesome. Please note that, like exploder, I am not trying to change your mind. I know of all the issues with 4.0, 4.1, etc. I can appreciate the alienation many felt. Obviously 3.5 did a LOT of things right, or there would not be all of these discussions going on today.
They'll all look at me and say,
Hey look at him! I'll never live that way.
But that's okay -
They're just afraid to change.
- Shannon Hoon

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rec9140
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Re: Stuck with Mint 5

Post by rec9140 »

exploder wrote:rec9140, a lot of people have the same point of view as you. Mepis and PCLinux plan to continue offering a KDE 3.5.10 version. Out of curiosity, have you looked at Mandriva 2010? The only reason I ask is because their community was not fond of the idea of KDE 4 and they used a lot of ideas from the community to make 2010 more like KDE 3.5.10. I am just throwing that in as an idea, not to change your point of view. :)
Mandriva is not Debian based and uses RPM based packages. NO THANKS. Nothing but grief and headaches from them.... I deal enough with that garbage at work and CentOS...

While I agree with their opinion of KVista, and it may be a fine distro, but for my personal systems, they must be Debian origin and based.

And regardless KDE 4 is KDE 4, I don't want a "theme" that looks like 3.5.10, I want 3.5.10. There is no part of KVista which is ready for prime time. All the releases to date should have been betas at best.

Its just really tragic to see the best WM go down in flames. . . really sad.
Julep....mixing.....KDE Done right, and minty.
http://www.juleplinux.com

Its been a great 3 year run! Thanks for the fish.. but time for new waters....
dequire
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Re: Stuck with Mint 5

Post by dequire »

rec9140 wrote:Mandriva is not Debian based and uses RPM based packages. NO THANKS. Nothing but grief and headaches from them.... I deal enough with that garbage at work and CentOS...
I too prefer Debian-based systems
rec9140 wrote:While I agree with their opinion of KVista, [...]
KVista?
rec9140 wrote:There is no part of KVista which is ready for prime time
Ok Ok we get you. I wholeheartedly disagree though. Since 4.3.X I've used nothing but KDE and have never looked back. There are many who feel this way.
rec9140 wrote:Its just really tragic to see the best WM go down in flames. . . really sad.
Like we pointed out in this thread...There are other options. And if you feel that strongly about it, and I think you do...
rec9140 wrote:I'll have to spend hours redoing what made KMint fantastic... ready to go out of the box....
...should not be a big deal. And I do not think it takes hours to add the Mint repositories to Kubuntu with 3.5. when Mint 8 KDE CE comes out (because it will be compatable with Kubuntu 9.10 repos for the most part).

Also, just a general point, you offer nothing explicit other that calling KDE "KVista". Most people find the 4.3 release very stable and usable. If you prefer, for example, Konqeror, it is there and still being developed to this day. If you don't like Plasma (I'm guessing this is where your "KVista" comes from), switch the Classic View.

Better yet, go over to kde.org and offer suggestions on how you feel it should be improved. Get involved. Or use a Minty KDE 3.5. You can download the source code from the KDE website:
http://www.kde.org/info/3.5.10.php and have a shiny-new KDE 3.5.10 on your Mint 8 system.
Or use one of the few distros out there offering KDE 3.5.10. So many options, really...
Free software is great!

Just like Windows XP, Mac OS 9, and my beloved Tandy Color Computer III I appreciate the past, but look forward to the future.

I expect Gnome 3 to go these same types of growing pains and thread topics when it comes out.
They'll all look at me and say,
Hey look at him! I'll never live that way.
But that's okay -
They're just afraid to change.
- Shannon Hoon

The Blue Mint
Toxic
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Re: Stuck with Mint 5

Post by Toxic »

Well I decided to try a version upgrade from inside adept and it took me up to Karmic but broke my Nvidia driver. I can't get to my desktop at all.
exploder
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Re: Stuck with Mint 5

Post by exploder »

I understand the comment on rpms but Mandriva seems to have the dependencies under control and package management is much quicker than it was in the past. Cent OS is enough to turn anyone off from an rpm base. I mentioned Mandriva mainly because it has everything you would expect in a KDE based system by default, with the exception of K3b. (They ran out of room on the CD.)

Mandriva goes above and beyond in optimizing the system for good performance, for example Firefox opens instantly in Mandriva 2010 and I have not seen anyone else achieve this. Mandriva does not have the desktop folder on the desktop by default and they went further with this by making sure the desktop loads properly with this set up. At first I thought this took away from the cool factor but now realize my choices of wallpapers look so much better with the desktop folder gone.

There is more to the default Mandriva menu than meets the eye, it is not simply the classic menu. Mandriva uses the same system of organizing the menu as they did in KDE 3.5.10 and they did go the extra mile on theming it to match the rest of the artwork. I have noticed that I have not had a single application crash in Mandriva 2010 and memory use is better that it was for me in a 3.5.10 based system, even with the default effects turned on.

The only downside I have seen to Mandriva 2010 is cleaning up residual config files, you have to use the CLI to accomplish this. This command with take care of this issue.

Code: Select all

urpme --auto-orphans
Boot speed is not quite as fast as Kubuntu 9.10 but it is not bad either. Application response time more than makes up for the few extra seconds you have to wait to get to the desktop. I was not a fan of KDE 4 until Boo released Mint 7 KDE CE with KDE 4.2.4. KDE 4 is nothing more that a base to run applications and it is maturing fast. KDE 4.3 is very good provided the underlying base is good. There will come a point when KDE 3.5.10 packages will no longer exist so your effort might be better spent finding ways to get KDE 4 where you feel it needs to be.

KDE 3.5.10 had issues with fonts in different applications, panel issues with compiz, signal 11 crashes, menu issues with compiz and probably some other bugs I am forgetting. These things are addressed in KDE 4, application development still needs to catch up but keep in mind that some application development had stopped some time ago in the KDE 3.5 cycle. KDE 4 brings common lib structure to the table, this will eliminate applications having to have their own specific libs to function. KDE 3.5.10 had multiple versions of the same libs to get individual applications to work, this creates quite a mess over time and any changes to those libs usually resulted in signal 11 crashes.

I mentioned Mandriva 2010 because they specifically built their system to make the transition to KDE 4 as pleasant as humanly possible for their die hard KDE 3.5.10 community members. The Mandriva developers put a huge amount of effort into the 2010 release and it shows. Mandriva 2010 is one of the best built KDE 4 systems available from a quality point of view, they really put some serious thought and hard work into resolving issues that I see in many new distributions and they went above and beyond to make the transition better for their community members.
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Re: Stuck with Mint 5

Post by dequire »

The bigger question that I have is whether any distro that has it's "flagship" flavor as Gnome (most Debian-based systems) can be the torch-bearer for KDE. So far, the answer is yes, with the two highest-rated KDE distros being Kubuntu and OpenSUSE. It remains to be seen over the next few years if one of the upstart KDE-only distros can catch or overtake the "big two".

If I was to argue against it, I would say that it was because SUSE and *buntu have the name recognition as well as inertia and communities on their side.

If I was to argue for it, I would say that it was because the big distro's can't be "best-of-breed" whilst trying to please everyone. i.e. KDE 3.5, 4x, Gnome, XFCE, etc etc.

I run Mint KDE, and my blog, in order to promote our KDE edition. KDE is on the verge of exploding soon, IMHO. That's why Kubuntu has it's own domains and own mission (Project Timelord). They will not adhere to the main edition's "Linux for Human Beings" slogan. They are sick of the "RHSC" syndrome and moniker.

I want to see the KDE Edition of Mint enjoy every bit of success that the Main Edition does. It deserves to. But it's not there yet.

I would also like to see Mint coordinate releases all at once, like Canonical does. All the waiting and wanting drives people to distro-hop. Which isn't bad on it's own, but for people to do so unnecessarily is kind of pointless. If that means delaying releases, so be it. The rest of the open source world raises the bar for the computing "experience" with every release. In order to capture an ever increasing market share, Mint needs to be relatively flawless.
Last edited by dequire on Sun Dec 13, 2009 7:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
They'll all look at me and say,
Hey look at him! I'll never live that way.
But that's okay -
They're just afraid to change.
- Shannon Hoon

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Re: Stuck with Mint 5

Post by exploder »

I would also like to see Mint coordinate releases all at once, like Cononical does.
That would be impossible because we only have one developer for each CE. Clem is full time now but takes care of 3 releases.
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Re: Stuck with Mint 5

Post by dequire »

Understood 100 pct.

I also mean "Canonical", obviously =)
They'll all look at me and say,
Hey look at him! I'll never live that way.
But that's okay -
They're just afraid to change.
- Shannon Hoon

The Blue Mint
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Re: Stuck with Mint 5

Post by Go2doug »

exploder wrote:I understand the comment on rpms but Mandriva seems to have the dependencies under control and package management is much quicker than it was in the past. I mentioned Mandriva mainly because it has everything you would expect in a KDE based system by default, with the exception of K3b. (They ran out of room on the CD.)

Mandriva goes above and beyond in optimizing the system for good performance, for example Firefox opens instantly in Mandriva 2010 and I have not seen anyone else achieve this. Mandriva does not have the desktop folder on the desktop by default and they went further with this by making sure the desktop loads properly with this set up. At first I thought this took away from the cool factor but now realize my choices of wallpapers look so much better with the desktop folder gone.

There is more to the default Mandriva menu than meets the eye, it is not simply the classic menu. Mandriva uses the same system of organizing the menu as they did in KDE 3.5.10 and they did go the extra mile on theming it to match the rest of the artwork. I have noticed that I have not had a single application crash in Mandriva 2010 and memory use is better that it was for me in a 3.5.10 based system, even with the default effects turned on.
...
I mentioned Mandriva 2010 because they specifically built their system to make the transition to KDE 4 as pleasant as humanly possible for their die hard KDE 3.5.10 community members. The Mandriva developers put a huge amount of effort into the 2010 release and it shows. Mandriva 2010 is one of the best built KDE 4 systems available from a quality point of view, they really put some serious thought and hard work into resolving issues that I see in many new distributions and they went above and beyond to make the transition better for their community members.
I have only limited experience with Mandriva itself, but other than Mint KDE was favorite distro is PCLinuxOS that is based on Mandriva. If I had to guess, I would say that PCLOS does everything that Mandriva does, only better in some areas (a la Mint and Ubuntu). PCLOS rivals Mint in terms of performance, stability, and reliability. The only complaint I have about PCLOS is that the developer, Texstar, doesn't keep the kernel as up-to-date as I, as a user, would like. For example, the current version of PCLOS runs kernel version 2.6.26.8, which is upgradable to 2.6.27.31. Most other mainstream distros are offering kernel versions around 2.6.31. I suppose that Texstar has adopted a more conservative approach to kernel releases, which may very well be the most beneficial in the long run.
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Re: Stuck with Mint 5

Post by exploder »

PCLinuxOS is not even close to being ready for release. I installed the KDE 4.3.4 packages on PCLinuxOS 2009.2, it looks cool but a lot of things are still not working in it. Intel graphics do not work well with desktop effects, you can hardly scroll a web page in Firefox. The create Live CD feature is not working right and even using the CLI to run the app only creates a backup that will not work with a SATA drive. Texstar will not release a KDE 4 version until it's ready and it's not ready.
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