32-bit or 64-bit KDE first?

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For Isadora KDE which architecture should be developed first?

Poll ended at Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:54 pm

32-bit
35
44%
64-bit
45
56%
 
Total votes: 80

feed3
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Re: 32-bit or 64-bit KDE first?

Post by feed3 »

olligod wrote: so why not use a 64 bit - Operating System which is nearly always better? Why would you want 32bit if there really aren't any advantages?
i have to agree with you on that. But still curious and almost more curious than before (or maybe had to say "CONFUSE??" :-P ) after reading some *debates and/or discussions* here; http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=20104

Since helena kde x64 has been available,i might download it later and give it a try. Thanks. :-)
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Re: 32-bit or 64-bit KDE first?

Post by JoeFootball »

feed3 wrote:Since helena kde x64 has been available,i might download it later and give it a try.
Hmmm, I'm note sure that (as I type this) Linux Mint 8 KDE x64 is available for download.

EDIT: As so noted, it is now indeed available.

Joe
Last edited by JoeFootball on Thu Feb 11, 2010 10:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Fred
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Re: 32-bit or 64-bit KDE first?

Post by Fred »

One should not automaticly make the assumption that a 64 bit OS is better than 32 bit OS. It can be and in many cases is better, but other things should be taken into consideration too. Please refer to the post below.

http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.p ... ly#p239125

Fred
Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over and each time expecting a different result.

Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on the menu. Liberty is an armed lamb protesting the electoral outcome. A Republic negates the need for an armed protest.
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Re: 32-bit or 64-bit KDE first?

Post by olligod »

JoeFootball wrote: Hmmm, I'm note sure that (as I type this) Linux Mint 8 KDE x64 is available for download.

Joe
Come on over - and you shall see !

http://ftp.heanet.ie/pub/linuxmint.com/stable/8/
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Re: 32-bit or 64-bit KDE first?

Post by feed3 »

Fred wrote:One should not automaticly make the assumption that a 64 bit OS is better than 32 bit OS. It can be and in many cases is better, but other things should be taken into consideration too. Please refer to the post below.

http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.p ... ly#p239125

Fred
Those thing might and will make a confusion for newbie. "which one is better?" that arguement/discussion would never ending imho. so, for any newbie like me out there, it is just a simple matter though(at least to me). Read, search for it,ask peoples about it, try it all, and use only those fit your needs the most. People can say anything and everything about which one is better BUT in the end, it is you who will use it.
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Re: 32-bit or 64-bit KDE first?

Post by Fred »

feed3,

Yeah, I guess you are right, unfortunately. It is just too much to expect that people actually learn how to evaluate their own needs and make a rational decision based on that evaluation. I probably just wasted my time making the posts in the first place.

As far as your method of consensus opinion for problem solving, let me ask you this: If we take 10 illiterate people and put them into a room and ask each to solve the problem, "what is the square root of 16?" Let's say the majority opinion is "9." Then we put 5 more illiterate people in the room with the 10 originals and have them solve the problem a second time. Let's say the majority opinion this time is "8." Is the second answer of "8" more correct than the first answer of "9"? It is based on more opinions. My question to you is does it make any difference? :-)

Fred
Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over and each time expecting a different result.

Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on the menu. Liberty is an armed lamb protesting the electoral outcome. A Republic negates the need for an armed protest.
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Re: 32-bit or 64-bit KDE first?

Post by olligod »

Fred wrote:feed3,

Yeah, I guess you are right, unfortunately. It is just too much to expect that people actually learn how to evaluate their own needs and make a rational decision based on that evaluation. I probably just wasted my time making the posts in the first place.

As far as your method of consensus opinion for problem solving, let me ask you this: If we take 10 illiterate people and put them into a room and ask each to solve the problem, "what is the square root of 16?" Let's say the majority opinion is "9." Then we put 5 more illiterate people in the room with the 10 originals and have them solve the problem a second time. Let's say the majority opinion this time is "8." Is the second answer of "8" more correct than the first answer of "9"? It is based on more opinions. My question to you is does it make any difference? :-)

Fred
With all due respect, that's not ok to imply 64-bit proponents cannot really decide for themselves (what is it with illiterates? Do 64 bit proponents make decisions like, or are mentally close to, illiterates?). The 64-bitters are the majority in the minipoll - that CAN'T be true, can it?)
That's what every good dictator says: The people support me - and if they don't, they just can't decide and one has to tell'em what's right. No offence, but a little funny indeed.

Facts should count as in benchmarks not forum chatter. The benchmarking based on real-world applications should count. In the systematic tests ...
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=a ... _pae&num=1
...there were almost NOT situations where 64bit was slower. Go ahead and dispute the report if there is evicence to do so, and I will listen.
But otherwise...

Fred, you mention a situation where the slight increase in used RAM (by 64-bit) would lead to swapping (when you JUST had enough memory for 32-bit)
http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.p ... me#p224674, entry from Tue Jan 05, 2010 1:26 am
- and thus, of course, a performance break down.
If you try hard, you can always find situations where there are exceptions to a rule.


..though maybe a lively debate is not the worst of all things ... :wink:
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Re: 32-bit or 64-bit KDE first?

Post by Fred »

olligod,

feed3 wrote:
Those thing might and will make a confusion for newbie.
The implication being that new users are somehow incapable of understanding the issues, and therefore it shouldn't be put out there to confuse them. Only three or four word answers please. If I were a new user I would be insulted.

He also went on to imply that the way he decides things is to get multiple opinions and try the most popular ones out for his self. This is a very poor second to educating yourself on the question and making your own evaluation with your system in mind. That is especially true in a forum that has a high percentage of new users and the question is of necessity system specific. Decision making via popularity contest is at best inefficient.

Unlike the person I was responding to, I believe new users can deal with information and answers that go beyond a yes or no, without going into a fog of confusion. Otherwise there would have been no point in me bothering to write and make the posts referenced in the first place. But if you do think new users are that dim witted, then illiterate is an appropriate term. There is a big discrepancy here. Why would you trust people like that to guide you about what OS you should be using? The logic escapes me.

As far as disagreeing with the link you posted, I don't disagree with anything in it that I remember right off hand. The point would be that they were testing only for differences caused by the 64 bit/32 bit operating mode. They intentionally didn't want other things to come into play to skew the results. My point is that system speed is affected by many factors other than word length.

It is still not common for people to have so much installed RAM that the example I gave rarely comes into play. Long documents and video are just two examples where you could easily see this situation. 30% more or less is a lot of memory use difference and could easily put you in this edge situation if you had 1 to 3 Gig installed.

I still say people should evaluate their own system and workload environment before making the switch just because others have told them 64 bit is faster. As I pointed out, it is faster on some hardware and workloads, but it certainly isn't on others.

Something else I didn't really address is that much of the first hardware that would run 64 bit CPUs still didn't have the buss width to handle a true 64 bit system. The result being that you get all of the downside of 64 bit, high memory consumption, poorly optimized software, not as much software to choose from, etc., and almost none of the advantages.

Actually, I am am a 64 bit advocate, but only when it is going to do me some good. :-)

Fred
Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over and each time expecting a different result.

Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on the menu. Liberty is an armed lamb protesting the electoral outcome. A Republic negates the need for an armed protest.
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Re: 32-bit or 64-bit KDE first?

Post by feed3 »

Fred wrote:olligod,

feed3 wrote:
Those thing might and will make a confusion for newbie.
The implication being that new users are somehow incapable of understanding the issues, and therefore it shouldn't be put out there to confuse them. Only three or four word answers please. If I were a new user I would be insulted.
Sorry,i should made it clear that i actually agree with what you said as we shouldn't make an assumption on which one is better. I'm not saying that a long and details explanations and posts would make a confusions but I'm referring to the arguments on the matter. What i want to say is, when you came here to seek an advise on which one is better, then you will find that you are in the middle of the 'war'. Some people "fanatically" said that you SHOULD use 64bit while the other side said you SHOULDN'T use it YET. as A NEWBIE, which one do you should follow? That's why i said, find as much info as you can but please make a decision to fulfill your needs, not based on what the others said simply because YOU are the one who will use it on your machine.
Fred wrote: He also went on to imply that the way he decides things is to get multiple opinions and try the most popular ones out for his self. This is a very poor second to educating yourself on the question and making your own evaluation with your system in mind. That is especially true in a forum that has a high percentage of new users and the question is of necessity system specific. Decision making via popularity contest is at best inefficient.
To be honest, with full honesty from me, i'm not disagree to neither what you said, nor what olligod said but for above statement, with respect, i cant agree as that is not what i'm trying to say. Maybe i'm not stating it clear enough, or maybe my English doesn't that good (English is not my primary language) but what i'm trying to say is, 1st, you must know what is your needs, then you came here to seek as much info as you can and then try it first, don't simply choose based on what the others said but choose base on how you use it. Let say you cant choose to use either 64 or 32bit KDE CE, then try to look for "what is good" and "what is the issue" etc etc on both of it but dont make it as your sole references in order to choose which one to use.

I'm so sorry and forgive me if i ever insulted some one. i wish i can make a friends here and be nice to all of you. Once again, forgive my ignorance. :-)
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Re: 32-bit or 64-bit KDE first?

Post by feed3 »

I think i've made a huge mistake to take part in this "discussions" that doesn't seem as a discussions to me. I'm just always believe that no one should give an ORDER to you on what you should do with your machine, this is an open source world. You can do whatever you want to do with it, what the others said, is A GUIDE, not the RULES nor THE LAW. IT IS a GUIDE. No need to be so offensive on defending your opinions. What is good for you, doesn't mean it is good for the others. Shouldn't we respect each others despite our different of opinions? Sorry, gonna leave this thread once for all. Forgive me for disturbing. Peace. :-)
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Re: 32-bit or 64-bit KDE first?

Post by JoeFootball »

olligod wrote:... please do read that benchmarking post. It concludes after tests that 64bit is ways better even at **less** than 4GB RAM. That's the point. A computer that is capable of 64 bit Operating systems should always do 64 bit where possible - for better performance.
This was just one test series but it reads very conclusive.
For clarity, it says the computer used in that benchmarking post had 4 GB RAM.

Here's another Phoronix benchmarking article with a PC having less than 4 GB RAM, which demonstrated very similar performance for 32-bit vs. 64-bit in most cases.

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Re: 32-bit or 64-bit KDE first?

Post by exploder »

Fred makes some very good points. The easiest answer is to try both 32 and 64 bit versions on your hardware and see how they compare for yourself. There are two things that you should notice right away, 64 bit uses more memory and there are a lot of apps installed that still use the 32 bit architecture. Are you going to notice a big difference in speed? No. Application launch is identical. Virtualbox is another story, in 64 bit it can run both 32 and 64 bit virtual machines and can run more than one at a time with little effort if you have the hardware. This demonstrated to me that some applications and tasks can yield improvements running in a 64 bit environment.

Flash works pretty decent in 32 bit but can be challenging at times in 64 bit and Adobe has not made a new version for 64 bit yet. The thing to do when deciding what to use is, try it first and make sure it runs decent on your hardware and that the applications work like you expect them to. No one can tell you which will work better for you, only you can determine this. In my opinion a 64 bit system only has an advantage if you use applications that take advantage of the architecture.
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Re: 32-bit or 64-bit KDE first?

Post by Jay514 »

I disagree ,& agree with both, Point is If your machine supports x64, use it..if not then do not.
I have 4 systems , 3 run x64 - os,s one x32. I have 2 linux distros on the laptop I am using now & 2 "others", all OSs x64bit, when I run 32bit distros ,on this laptop, I can tell a big diff in speed overall.This machine is made for x64,that is why. BTW - popular to current lore - I have had no problem with Adobe flash present or past & they have updated the build recently,I have been using x64Kubuntu since it came out w/ very little probs.
Anyway just my thoughts, there is still a place for 32bit os's, if your system supports x64, try it.
Later,Jay514 :mrgreen:
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Re: 32-bit or 64-bit KDE first?

Post by exploder »

I have had no problem with Adobe flash present or past & they have updated the build recently,
I saw the updated build for 32 bit, where did you find a newer build for 64 bit?
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Re: 32-bit or 64-bit KDE first?

Post by Jay514 »

Not to get off the topic or anything but, since you are an asking team member, I had the first alpha & then beta & then upgraded to this =

http://labs.adobe.com/downloads/flashpl ... 64bit.html

Jay514 :mrgreen:
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Re: 32-bit or 64-bit KDE first?

Post by exploder »

I got your pm. I will have to give it a try. Thanks!
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Re: 32-bit or 64-bit KDE first?

Post by Seventh Reign »

64 bit should be first without question.

What app compatibility? There are no 32/64 bit compatibility issues anymore.
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Re: 32-bit or 64-bit KDE first?

Post by hunkirdowne »

Would this be a fair statement?

Those that need 32-bit because of aging hardware (I'm there, normally) might be a little more patient in the outcome than those that desire 64-bit on more modern systems (like my children's laptop for school).

It is interesting the lag between 64-bit software coming to the hardware versus what I recall happening shortly after the 32-bit processors were introduced.
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Re: 32-bit or 64-bit KDE first?

Post by HaTeMe »

richyrich wrote:How big of a percentage of users have more than 2 Gb of RAM ?
- 32 bit.

And for me personally, I like the 32 bit for App compatibility.

Edit: Anyone else having fun with flash-64 ? :lol:
This is more a reason FOR 64Bit, the Devs dont support 64Bit because 64Bit is to rare so we have to make the first Step.
64Bit is the Future and using 32Bit all the Time is the only reason why we have the bad Support on 64Bit Software.

[X] 64Bit
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Re: 32-bit or 64-bit KDE first?

Post by joutlan »

big_dog1968 wrote:
exploder wrote:I am not going to vote because it is up to the community but I think the 32 bit should be developed first. The 32 bit version will work on a wider range of computers and it has a pae enabled kernel. Don't misunderstand me, I have switched to 64 bit myself and I like it. I am just thinking about those that may not have a 64 bit system.
How well do 32 bit programs make use of the additional ram in PAE Kernel. I have 6 gigs of ram.
Doesn't PAE support up to 64 gigs of ram? BTW, hello from a fellow Otowner....:)
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