Mint 11 KDE development

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colyn
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Re: Mint 11 KDE development

Post by colyn » Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:25 pm

rec9140 wrote: Translation its useless! For 2.5 years I've provided OGG format streams, no one but me uses them, and Android devices can not use them. If Android is not even going to support Ogg then whats the point... throw in all the headaches from getting LAME etc.. on Debian.
Sorry you are wrong here. My Android HTC Inspire supports OGG...I forgot...you have me in your ignore list so you can't see this post so it is for the benefit of others.

Android in fact supports OGG contrary to what rec9140 says..

Many Linux distros Debian included don't include MP3 support (or other non-free formats) out of the box due to the non-free nature of it but OGG has proven itself to be as good or better in most cases..

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Re: Mint 11 KDE development

Post by craig10x » Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:15 pm

tdockery97 wrote:I know from reading the KDE iso testing page on the community site that the decision is already made, but I'm afraid I have to agree with thenewguy. I think for now I'll stick with Kubuntu 11.10 Alpha.
Really? I checked out Kubuntu 11.10 Alpha and it had plenty of bugs in it....especially that new software manager system it is introducing....
I had to install the old reliable package manager just to install and test some applications in it...definitely not ready for prime time yet...
There were other annoying bugs which i just can't recall at the moment...

This new KDE with the debian base (and clem's new snapshot update system) may actually work out to be less buggy in the long run... :wink:
Last edited by craig10x on Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Mint 11 KDE development

Post by thenewguy » Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:18 pm

Surely you kid, OGG has proven to be a train wreck, that's why no one uses it outside of a few die-hard free software purists.

But the point rec and I are both raises is that basing Mint KDE edition off Debian would be a big regression. We'd be missing Ubuntu-specific software, PPAs, and many packages would take a jump backward in version number. Rolling releases aren't suitable for serious work and then there is the issue of whether Mint KDE would include all the non-free software, drivers and firmware the (K)Ubuntu-based Mint uses. None of these concerns have been addressed and no reason for moving to Debian as a base have been given.

I've been a big fan of Mint KDE for a while now and I'm frustrated that such a change has been made with (apparently) so little discussion and concern for the users. Users who donate some of their time and money to the project and encourage others to do the same.

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Re: Mint 11 KDE development

Post by colyn » Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:18 pm

thenewguy wrote:Surely you kid, OGG has proven to be a train wreck, that's why no one uses it outside of a few die-hard free software purists.
In what way??

The reason some don't use it is because they (Microsoft) has no say over EULA. They can't do their threatening licensing requirements.. Apple is getting just as bad as Microsoft when deciding what users can and can't have. I sold my iPad and decided not to get the iPhone because Uncle Stevie say I can't have flash..
thenewguy wrote:But the point rec and I are both raises is that basing Mint KDE edition off Debian would be a big regression. We'd be missing Ubuntu-specific software, PPAs, and many packages would take a jump backward in version number. Rolling releases aren't suitable for serious work and then there is the issue of whether Mint KDE would include all the non-free software, drivers and firmware the (K)Ubuntu-based Mint uses. None of these concerns have been addressed and no reason for moving to Debian as a base have been given.
Ubuntu-specific software has taken a nosedive in the last couple of versions.

Some may go back in version number but at least they would be stable..

Why are rolling releases not suitable for serious work?? They are far more stable than ones released on a 6 month cycle before they are even ready for prime time..

I suspect the reason for the move is based more on what the developers know better than you or I.. I don't recall Clem giving a reason for LMDE but it has been widely accepted. In fact it is the only Gnome based distro that works on my laptop...and it is very stable.
thenewguy wrote:I've been a big fan of Mint KDE for a while now and I'm frustrated that such a change has been made with (apparently) so little discussion and concern for the users. Users who donate some of their time and money to the project and encourage others to do the same.
I too am a big fan of Mint KDE but since Mint 9 I have seen more issues because of the direction that Ubuntu/Kubuntu has taken. Kubuntu 11.04 has crapped out on all of my machines and these issues have affected the ability of creating a stable Mint 11KDE version..

I personally look forward to a Debian Mint KDE.

Instead of complaining why not give it a chance once it is released.. You're judging it before it has even been released..

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Re: Mint 11 KDE development

Post by thenewguy » Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:40 pm

As I pointed out further up, I have tried LMDE, Debian and Kubuntu in recent months. Kubuntu was the best of the three for my purposes. So, yes, I am judging a Mint KDE edition before it arrives, but I'm doing so based on observations of similar technology. As I pointed out before a rolling release distribution is not suitable for serious work. It is, by definition, not stable. Ubuntu, and Mint versions based on same, have shown themselves to be stable on my machines. Arch and Debian (non-Stable) are not stable in comparison.

You may not use Ubuntu-specific software of PPAs, but I do and losing that feature would mean Mint is no longer a viable option for me.

Old versions of software are not necessarily more stable. (KDE 4.6 is obviously a much more solid product than 4.3 for example, gcc 4.4.3 is probably an improvement over 4.4.1, etc etc).

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Re: Mint 11 KDE development

Post by rec9140 » Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:42 pm

colyn wrote:Sorry you are wrong here. My Android HTC Inspire supports OGG. Android in fact supports OGG contrary to what rec9140 says..
BZZT, thanks for playing. None of the streaming players widely used support OGG, they all barf, unknown format... OGG support on Android, is pathetic, to be unsupported is a fiting label.

Point my Android device at my ogg stream(s) or any other various players just spin and chew on it. This is with Android 2.2.1. Just tried and nothings changed. No joy. Fail.
colyn wrote:Many Linux distros Debian included don't include MP3 support (or other non-free formats) out of the box due to the non-free nature of it but OGG has proven itself to be as good or better in most cases..
I have no issue with OGG, and would prefer to see it used in all things streams to physical players, it sadly has to dethrone MP3 and thats not going to happen. Thats why I offer it, better quality and its not tainted, its a waste, I am the only person that is ever connected to them.

And if your distro is not including the support of the formats used, your wasting your time, and for a distro aimed at converting users from another OS, they do not give one little bit about the MP3 gestapo at Thompson. They want their media to play, period. Running them into the wall of lack of support of MP3 in the programs and then having to compile them, well they just went back to that other OS. Fail.
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Re: Mint 11 KDE development

Post by colyn » Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:04 pm

thenewguy wrote:As I pointed out further up, I have tried LMDE, Debian and Kubuntu in recent months. Kubuntu was the best of the three for my purposes. So, yes, I am judging a Mint KDE edition before it arrives, but I'm doing so based on observations of similar technology.
In my situation the opposite is true.
thenewguy wrote: As I pointed out before a rolling release distribution is not suitable for serious work.
You still haven't answered my question which is... why is it not suitable for serious work?
thenewguy wrote: It is, by definition, not stable.
I don't agree. I've been using PCLinuxOS for some time now without any issues. It has proven to be far more stable than my Mint 10 install..
thenewguy wrote:Old versions of software are not necessarily more stable. (KDE 4.6 is obviously a much more solid product than 4.3 for example, gcc 4.4.3 is probably an improvement over 4.4.1, etc etc).
I agree..

With many rolling releases though the updated versions don't make it to the repo till it has been deemed stable.

PCLinuxOS updated KDE to 4.6.5 last week and it is rock solid.. Many 6 month cycle releases freeze these updates at a certain point so you don't benefit from the bug fixes till the next OS version release..

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Re: Mint 11 KDE development

Post by craig10x » Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:11 pm

I got frustrated myself with LMDE in regarding to huge amount of updates almost daily and breakages and went back to Mint 10 main edition and now Mint 11 main edition...However, with re-spin iso coming soon containing the new monthly snapshots (i would use the version that has been pre-tested by the community because i'd hope for best stability and least problems) and hopefully an easier installer on it...i am seriously considering trying it again myself...

I'd also prefer rolling as long as i don't have to receive updates daily and where they have been checked out by Clem and the community, and even includes the solutions in case you SHOULD have a problem with a particular update...This appeals to me much more then the way LMDE has been up to now :wink:

As was said...you should give it a chance...and don't condemn it before you get to try it...it may turn out to be very good... :)
I love main edition (gnome) but every time the new version comes out i keep getting the urge to re-install my system...on rolling the new stuff would come to me without having to re-install the system...i kind of like that...but like you, i really want it to be pretty stable too...

Worse case scenario...you don't like it and then you could always go with the next Kubuntu or something along those lines....

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Re: Mint 11 KDE development

Post by thenewguy » Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:15 pm

Obviously we have very different experiences and different expectations. Which is fine, to each their own. However, that doesn't change the fact that this change came largely out of left field and there hasn't been (to my knowledge) any explanation given for the switch. I don't like that an upgrade path to a platform I've tested and found to be suitable for my needs has been yanked away and replaced with another platform I've tested and found to be unsuitable for my needs.

If Boo isn't going to change his mind I think we at least deserve to know why.

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Re: Mint 11 KDE development

Post by colyn » Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:29 pm

rec9140 wrote: BZZT, thanks for playing. None of the streaming players widely used support OGG, they all barf, unknown format... OGG support on Android, is pathetic, to be unsupported is a fiting label.

Point my Android device at my ogg stream(s) or any other various players just spin and chew on it. This is with Android 2.2.1. Just tried and nothings changed. No joy. Fail.
I'm not sure what player I have on my HTC but all of my music on my computer was converted to OGG. I have copied many of my favorites to the HTC and all play fine but then I could have an updated player. My old one did not support OGG so I had to break out the CD's and copy the MP3's to it..
rec9140 wrote:I have no issue with OGG, and would prefer to see it used in all things streams to physical players, it sadly has to dethrone MP3 and thats not going to happen. Thats why I offer it, better quality and its not tainted, its a waste, I am the only person that is ever connected to them.
Nor do I. In fact I much prefer OGG also..

Since most music players support MP3 and most users are using Microsoft or Mac I don't see the OGG format gaining widespread favor either..

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Re: Mint 11 KDE development

Post by colyn » Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:32 pm

thenewguy wrote:Obviously we have very different experiences and different expectations. Which is fine, to each their own. However, that doesn't change the fact that this change came largely out of left field and there hasn't been (to my knowledge) any explanation given for the switch. I don't like that an upgrade path to a platform I've tested and found to be suitable for my needs has been yanked away and replaced with another platform I've tested and found to be unsuitable for my needs.

If Boo isn't going to change his mind I think we at least deserve to know why.
If you keep an eye out here http://blog.linuxmint.com/ Clem may explain the reason soon..maybe in the next few days??

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Re: Mint 11 KDE development

Post by rec9140 » Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:04 pm

thenewguy wrote:Surely you kid, OGG has proven to be a train wreck, that's why no one uses it outside of a few die-hard free software purists.
No, I am not . I disagre, but it has huge hurdles to adoption, and that is the point MP3 is the desired audio format for downloads, streams or files. I will continue to support and offer OGG as I detest thompson/frauhauffer and their gestapo tactics, especially in DE. So a distro aiming to convert users from w to Linux needs to skip the BS zealotry and include the formats needed, and sadly thats MP3.... but thats not at the expense of Ogg.... I want google to shove WebM down the throats of people so it kills off flash and the MPGE-LA can take it elsewhere!
thenewguy wrote:But the point rec and I are both raises is that basing Mint KDE edition off Debian would be a big regression. We'd be missing Ubuntu-specific software, PPAs, and many packages would take a jump backward in version number.
DING DING DING DING! WINNER WINNER!!

I don't see this version being any different than prior versions, the upstream base has been a disaster for years... Until just the last two or so versions its the first ones that I could actually get to boot from the CD/DVD! Its requiring huge amounts of clean up that maybe have not been the case in the past few editions..

So lets get Boo some HELP! ! Lets get the community involved in testing things, developing etc.... I am sure there are some talented developers in the user community, but this closed, walled off, from the community approach is not going to continue work.
thenewguy wrote: Rolling releases aren't suitable for serious work
There are pros and cons to each release style... I think what gets people in to trouble is they see a new version and have to update with out due diligence. Meaning they don't test out a DVD, on the hardware to test compatibility, don't run some VMWare Player VM's to test out things.... just click update...

There are users here who see a new version come out and update... I have Julia on all mine machines, and it will be there till there is an absolute need to upgrade, or I build a new machine. Most installs will stay 2-3 years. Just because there is a new versions every 6 months or so, doesn't mean you have to upgrade... I don't... I will test them out and if they don't fail that testing new machines will get it first, and if there is some huge bug that is fixed then I would consider updating.. but I have not issues like that, right now, so far.. it seems one of my nagging issues was resolved and I didn't know it... but a recent software/hardware test case proved it resolved.
thenewguy wrote:and then there is the issue of whether Mint KDE would include all the non-free software, drivers and firmware the (K)Ubuntu-based Mint uses.
THIS is the THE BIG THING that seems to be getting lost in the shuffle... Again... I am a HUGE DEBIAN FAN.. but there are huge implications to this change that I don't think Mint is ready to handle.

thenewguy wrote: None of these concerns have been addressed and no reason for moving to Debian as a base have been given.

I've been a big fan of Mint KDE for a while now and I'm frustrated that such a change has been made with (apparently) so little discussion and concern for the users. Users who donate some of their time and money to the project and encourage others to do the same.
WELL SAID! Right on the mark!
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Re: Mint 11 KDE development

Post by rec9140 » Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:07 pm

thenewguy wrote:Obviously we have very different experiences and different expectations. Which is fine, to each their own. However, that doesn't change the fact that this change came largely out of left field and there hasn't been (to my knowledge) any explanation given for the switch. I don't like that an upgrade path to a platform I've tested and found to be suitable for my needs has been yanked away and replaced with another platform I've tested and found to be unsuitable for my needs.

If Boo isn't going to change his mind I think we at least deserve to know why.
EXCELLENT! ! Well said! On the mark!
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Re: Mint 11 KDE development

Post by kmb42vt » Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:06 pm

thenewguy wrote:As I pointed out further up, I have tried LMDE, Debian and Kubuntu in recent months. Kubuntu was the best of the three for my purposes. So, yes, I am judging a Mint KDE edition before it arrives, but I'm doing so based on observations of similar technology. As I pointed out before a rolling release distribution is not suitable for serious work. It is, by definition, not stable. Ubuntu, and Mint versions based on same, have shown themselves to be stable on my machines. Arch and Debian (non-Stable) are not stable in comparison.

You may not use Ubuntu-specific software of PPAs, but I do and losing that feature would mean Mint is no longer a viable option for me.

Old versions of software are not necessarily more stable. (KDE 4.6 is obviously a much more solid product than 4.3 for example, gcc 4.4.3 is probably an improvement over 4.4.1, etc etc).
You're basing your judgment on using LMDE with the old way of updating and in that aspect I agree. However, all Linux Mint Debian editions regardless of DE now have a new way of updating that's going to make these editions much more stable and which will make them more than suitable for serious work. Have you read the latest LM blog post about this new system? I have a feeling you haven't:

http://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=1781

You say that Arch and Debian Unstable (sid or Aptosid) are unstable? Of course they are. Both are updated from cutting edge, unstable repos. I hope your not using those as a typical example of a "rolling" distro. I take it by your previous posts that you know LMDE is not based on Debian Unstable but on Testing. Not the same thing.

BTW, the latest KDE in the new LMDE "Incoming" repository is 4.6.3. Currently one point release behind the "official" 4.6.4 release but hopefully by the LMD-KDE release it will have caught up and 4.7 will be no more than a month away at most. Also, I know an up to date Nvidia driver is currently available in the above repo (275). I'm not sure about the others.

I more than understand your of view but for me, I'm going to wait until it's released before I make any judgments. No sense jumping the gun.
"Humph. Choice, it is the quintessential Linux delusion, simultaneously the source of it's greatest strength, and it's greatest weakness." (All apologies to The Architect)

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Re: Mint 11 KDE development

Post by thenewguy » Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:41 pm

Yes, I'm familiar with the new method of updating LMDE introduced and I think it's a step in the right direction. However, this doesn't actually address any of my concerns above. I'd also like to point out I wasn't talking about Sid when I mentioned Debian's non-Stable branch wasn't suitable for me uses. I was referring to their Testing branch.

It seems there are quite a few people here all saying, "It'll be fine, it'll be fine" and offering all sorts of reasons why, but none of them are relevant to the points I've made. No one here seems to have any solid information about the features (or lack of) of a Mint KDE based on Debian.

Previous versions of Mint KDE edition could:
A) Install Ubuntu PPAs
B) Install software specific to Ubuntu's repositories
C) Were fixed releases with security updates only

These are some of the reasons I picked Mint KDE in the first place. If these features are being removed, then I'll move to a different distro. But I'd like to know why Boo is planning to go down this path when it doesn't appear to have any benefit to the users. I've been using Mint-KDE for over a year and a half now on the Ubuntu base and it's been as solid as a rock, so it's not a stability issue. The LTS release is supported for three years, and the in-between releases are supported for a year and a half, so upgrading every six-eight months isn't an issue.

Look, if Boo stays firm in his decision to switch and I have to leave, I'll do so without any hard feelings. Taking the distro where he wants to is his right, but I'd really like to know his reasons for doing so.

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Re: Mint 11 KDE development

Post by colyn » Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:43 pm

kmb42vt wrote: BTW, the latest KDE in the new LMDE "Incoming" repository is 4.6.3. Currently one point release behind the "official" 4.6.4 release but hopefully by the LMD-KDE release it will have caught up and 4.7 will be no more than a month away at most.
My current PCLinuxOS KDE is 4.6.5. Hopefully when Mint Debian KDE is released we'll be able to update to at least that version..

Isn't 4.7 still RC?

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Re: Mint 11 KDE development

Post by colyn » Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:52 pm

thenewguy wrote: Look, if Boo stays firm in his decision to switch and I have to leave, I'll do so without any hard feelings. Taking the distro where he wants to is his right, but I'd really like to know his reasons for doing so.
Clem as well as others suggested it..

Scroll down and read the first 7 comments.

http://community.linuxmint.com/iso/view/76

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Re: Mint 11 KDE development

Post by kmb42vt » Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:57 pm

thenewguy wrote:
......Previous versions of Mint KDE edition could:
A) Install Ubuntu PPAs
B) Install software specific to Ubuntu's repositories
C) Were fixed releases with security updates only

These are some of the reasons I picked Mint KDE in the first place. If these features are being removed, then I'll move to a different distro. But I'd like to know why Boo is planning to go down this path when it doesn't appear to have any benefit to the users. I've been using Mint-KDE for over a year and a half now on the Ubuntu base and it's been as solid as a rock, so it's not a stability issue. The LTS release is supported for three years, and the in-between releases are supported for a year and a half, so upgrading every six-eight months isn't an issue.

Look, if Boo stays firm in his decision to switch and I have to leave, I'll do so without any hard feelings. Taking the distro where he wants to is his right, but I'd really like to know his reasons for doing so.
I well understand your 3 points more than you know. According to the comments on the latest testing post for the last Kubuntu based build Boo submitted, problems with the latest Kubuntu release simply prevented the devs from successfully overhauling it and releasing a high quality, (nearly) bug free release that M int users expect. If you haven't read through these testing posts and resulting comments from Clem, Boo and the testing group you should. It won't change your mind and may not even answer your question about "why" to your satisfaction but it might give you and better understanding why Boo decided to switch:

1st build submitted: http://community.linuxmint.com/iso/view/73

2nd build submitted (where decision was made to switch): http://community.linuxmint.com/iso/view/76

I'm really not arguing with you or even playing devil's advocate here. I also feared this would happen because one thing that Ubuntu has done is create the richest package environment of any Linux distro anywhere. And the PPA system is outstanding, something Debian does not have. Perhaps Mint can turn that around, they seem to be in the first stages of doing so but who knows?
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Re: Mint 11 KDE development

Post by kmb42vt » Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:59 pm

colyn wrote:
kmb42vt wrote: BTW, the latest KDE in the new LMDE "Incoming" repository is 4.6.3. Currently one point release behind the "official" 4.6.4 release but hopefully by the LMD-KDE release it will have caught up and 4.7 will be no more than a month away at most.
My current PCLinuxOS KDE is 4.6.5. Hopefully when Mint Debian KDE is released we'll be able to update to at least that version..

Isn't 4.7 still RC?
It would be good. It will cut some of the OMG, CHANGE!! out of it. :shock:
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Re: Mint 11 KDE development

Post by nico » Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:36 am

Quoting Clem from The Linux Mint Blog:
Debian Linux Mint is great, but it's not for everybody. Today, we're Making It Simpler and Easier to use .......



At the moment, users LMDE Rely on the forums. They're using The following giant mega-thread in a chaotic effort to get Organized: http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?f=141&t=67502

It's far from ideal, but it's better than nothing .......
These statements would be enough to scare any less expert user like myself :shock: .... and then not talking about the time and energy you should spend every time you need to update something, having to scroll through pages of forums to be able to understand what to do and what not have to do!
LM has always been a main Linux distributions preferred by people for ease of use and most of these people do not write or rarely write on this forum, they are simply happy to have their fine distribution ready to use without need of puzzling ... I realize that for many of you these seem to be newbies problems , but please do not forget that the LM user base is largely composed of such people.
Ok, I know that 'Kminters' are far from being the majority of LM users, but why risk losing even a minority of people, forcing them to use a distribution 'difficult' by its very nature, instead of the usual quiet KMint that we used to know ?

Anyway well, let's take a chance with a KDE LMDE, surely we will be happily surprised by its speed and its power, certainly finding that the devil is not as bad as he is painted :D

But I also agree with rec9140, and KMint KmintDE should be two different and separate, there will probably no Katya KDE, but eventually it would be hoped that in a future KDE 12 could also be realized.

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