Rant:Being condescending to someone is a pretty bad habit

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legacypowers
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Rant:Being condescending to someone is a pretty bad habit

Post by legacypowers »

First, this is not a political post.
With that being said it is recurrent that on linux communities people jump down to conclusions about other people, mostly for not being an user known in that circle, and on Discord, Reddit, bulletin boards, etc... you will find people asking for stuff and people replying with
- Not really a solution related to that problem, and instead suggesting other stuff(for example "i'm having problem with VLC lagging on H.265 encoded videos", and someone answering "use mpv")
- The one who adds nothing(usually the one that says "haha let him do this, i wanna enjoy watching he bonking his head on a problem")
- The one who have the good intention and really try to help(please try to be that guy)
- The one who keeps *censored beep* around(that's me but i try to be the 3rd option on the list whenever i can)
And it will usually end up with someone going to the conclusion that the OP is just really new to linux and rely on a "just works" distribution to be able to do anything, and is not able to change stuff, and i don't blame having this bias, usually the people asking for stuff on forums are really new linux, but keep that to yourself, maybe the OP is just not familiar with that particular thing, maybe they are asking just to see if anyone had an weird different experience with that.

I found here on this bulletin board(if my memory is not failing) people asking how to install XP like themes and being discouraged to do it because they were too new, instead of being told to backup stuff and try following some guidelines or tutorials, or try it on a system that you don't care about(for example a virtual machine), and on my humble opinion this is off-putting to these people say the least.
Now i'm talking about my personal experience, give me a gentoo image, and a computer with a freshly wiped disk and i will end up not being able to install it, sure i can follow some guides but dominating and understanding what is being done will be a different story at least for the time being, i'm sure that will the right amount of study and research i will be able to fully set-up a gentoo system from the ground up, maybe i'm imagining that installing gentoo is complex and stuff because i have been told so.
Now on Arch(i don't use arch btw) i tried, bonked my head, thought about the issues, researched, figured it out, and sure i can install it and set it up(on the worst case i will install tmux and lynx and follow some arch wiki article to help me)
Why i don't use arch(btw)? too much manual set-up with a distro that i'm not that used to.
Now give me debian, and i can set up whatever you want, reasonably quick, and reasonably secure(secure enough to not be affected by the usual automated stuff and script kiddies).
And yet here i have been told that i have no skill to replace a display manager and a desktop environment, by someone who don't really know who am i,what is my knowledge limited of.
Now why the person went to this conclusion?
Maybe he got what i was trying to say wrong, maybe i expressed myself badly, maybe english not being my native and main language, and if it is one of those cases how this person is supposed to know?
Well mates, there is this magical thing called "ASKING FOR CLARIFICATION", or just asking, instead jumping to conclusion, imagine this scenario:
"Hey mate, have you ever set-up a display manager, a window manager or a desktop environment?"
"Hey mate, are you familiar with doing stuff by command lines?"
"Have you tried to do this or that?"

I know that people(including me) get lazy and don't do any research before asking something, but even on these cases, don't jump to conclusions, don't leave unnecessary messages, if you are not in the mood to help, just don't bother, you are not being forced to meet a comment quota that if you fail to reach someone will rm -rf /*(for those who don't know, doing this with superuser privileges will erase whatever it can from your root filesystem in a recursive way) your filesystems.
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Samarian Sunset
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Re: Rant:Being condescending to someone is a pretty bad habit

Post by Samarian Sunset »

I would image in many circumstances the person suggesting 'use mpv' is trying to be helpful. Maybe it doesn't directly answer the question but 'use mpv' might help those new to Linux quickly solve a VLC playback issue. If experienced Linux users post asking for help and want more experienced type answers, then the original post should give information that relays to the reader that the writer is indeed knowledgable on Linux.

I think a real problem is: people asking for help who don't give enough detailed information, so that they then don't get the kind of detailed answers they need. And of course there's not always an answer to every given set of specific circumstances.
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Re: Rant:Being condescending to someone is a pretty bad habit

Post by Pjotr »

Samarian Sunset wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:38 pm
I would image in many circumstances the person suggesting 'use mpv' is trying to be helpful. Maybe it doesn't directly answer the question but 'use mpv' might help those new to Linux quickly solve a VLC playback issue.
Exactly my thoughts. This is Linux: we're practical folks. If one particular application doesn't behave like you want it to, simply dump it and replace it by another application that does. Problem solved. <shrugs>
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legacypowers
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Re: Rant:Being condescending to someone is a pretty bad habit

Post by legacypowers »

Pjotr wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:47 pm
Samarian Sunset wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:38 pm
I would image in many circumstances the person suggesting 'use mpv' is trying to be helpful. Maybe it doesn't directly answer the question but 'use mpv' might help those new to Linux quickly solve a VLC playback issue.
Exactly my thoughts. This is Linux: we're practical folks. If one particular application doesn't behave like you want it to, simply dump it and replace it by another application that does. Problem solved. <shrugs>
i set a bad example, mpv is great, and it is my go to player, and indeed suggesting someone to use mpv is a great advice :lol:
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Re: Rant:Being condescending to someone is a pretty bad habit

Post by RollyShed »

legacypowers wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:17 pm
You will find people asking for stuff and people replying with
- Not really a solution related to that problem, and instead suggesting other stuff (for example "I'm having problem with VLC lagging on H.265 encoded videos", and someone answering "use mpv".
So? That is an example of a solution to the problem and a solution that might not have been considered. So what is wrong with that?

One of the major problems is someone saying something like, "My computer doesn't go."
What computer? What system? Does it really matter? It then takes a page or two of questions to find out they haven't turned it on and have wasted everyone's time.
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Re: Rant:Being condescending to someone is a pretty bad habit

Post by motoryzen »

people asking how to install XP like themes and being discouraged to do it because they were too new, instead of being told to backup stuff and try following some guidelines or tutorials, or try it on a system that you don't care about(for example a virtual machine), and on my humble opinion this is off-putting to these people say the least.
Yeah..I'm sorry to disagree, sincerely, but I don't find that off-putting or rude in any level. It shows polite concern for a Linux noob's system safety ( things just continuing to work for one example) and illustrating proper cautionary common sense. A Linux noob with any real life sense will respect such a forthcoming suggestion and this will show that Linux beginner that the suggest-or knows what he or she is doing and this invites good conversation also and fights that label of Linux world being toxic and elitist in many's eyes.

When trying anything new ( even if it's a seemingly minor thing like installing new desktop themes or even Kernel Updates or Grub updates), it's never bad form or rude to suggest to a Linux beginner to take a Timeshift snapshot and/or even a system image backup using a simple deal like Foxclone ( especially given the dev AndyMH is often here like a boss ready to help anyone with questions)..first before attempting that new goal/task.

It encourages sensible PC using behavior that can definitely save one's bacon if he or she did something that either messed up some minor or medium piece of functionality..or...even one's ability to boot into Linux Mint. It's definitely saved my bacon and a lot of others will agree with me.

When in doubt, before plowing ahead...back it up. It's the first rule of I.T. anyways ;)

** Now having explained all of that..it DOES...matter how one explains/suggests things that can come across as either friendly and with the heart of a teacher...or as a rude thug acting bragger. This is where language style can come into play and matter. It's not about sounding like you know it all, but it's also not about being humble to the point of sounding like you're not sure what you're doing either. There is a happy medium in there. That is where I try to stay always. *** :mrgreen:
legacypowers
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Re: Rant:Being condescending to someone is a pretty bad habit

Post by legacypowers »

motoryzen wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:03 am
people asking how to install XP like themes and being discouraged to do it because they were too new, instead of being told to backup stuff and try following some guidelines or tutorials, or try it on a system that you don't care about(for example a virtual machine), and on my humble opinion this is off-putting to these people say the least.
Yeah..I'm sorry to disagree, sincerely, but I don't find that off-putting or rude in any level. It shows polite concern for a Linux noob's system safety ( things just continuing to work for one example) and illustrating proper cautionary common sense. A Linux noob with any real life sense will respect such a forthcoming suggestion and this will show that Linux beginner that the suggest-or knows what he or she is doing and this invites good conversation also and fights that label of Linux world being toxic and elitist in many's eyes.

When trying anything new ( even if it's a seemingly minor thing like installing new desktop themes or even Kernel Updates or Grub updates), it's never bad form or rude to suggest to a Linux beginner to take a Timeshift snapshot and/or even a system image backup using a simple deal like Foxclone ( especially given the dev AndyMH is often here like a boss ready to help anyone with questions)..first before attempting that new goal/task.

It encourages sensible PC using behavior that can definitely save one's bacon if he or she did something that either messed up some minor or medium piece of functionality..or...even one's ability to boot into Linux Mint. It's definitely saved my bacon and a lot of others will agree with me.

When in doubt, before plowing ahead...back it up. It's the first rule of I.T. anyways ;)

** Now having explained all of that..it DOES...matter how one explains/suggests things that can come across as either friendly and with the heart of a teacher...or as a rude thug acting bragger. This is where language style can come into play and matter. It's not about sounding like you know it all, but it's also not about being humble to the point of sounding like you're not sure what you're doing either. There is a happy medium in there. That is where I try to stay always. *** :mrgreen:
But we are agreeing, encouraging a timeshift snapshot is really good, i don't see a problem with encouraging a user to do backups or try it on a virtual machine, but the problem is discouraging user to do modifications(after all linux is free as in freedom), but discouraging newbies is one thing, but acting in a way that the user is brain dead or assuming that the user don't have the skill to do certain stuff is what my point is.
For example i'm a C/C++ developer(since i was 13), i also know pascal(well i dont remember but it was a bit earlier than when i started to learn C) from a long time, recently i got interested in python, and sure i had lots of C++ mannerism that didn't really fit python, and imagine if i asked for some help trying to understand the "python way of doing stuff", and someone deduced that i never programmed anything in my life and i don't have the logical thinking and algorithm building skills, and reply that i don't have skill to code and i should learn the basics first.
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Re: Rant:Being condescending to someone is a pretty bad habit

Post by t42 »

of course you a free more then anyone to tell people how they should reply to your posts and extensively comment on their comments
-=t42=-
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Re: Rant:Being condescending to someone is a pretty bad habit

Post by eu2 »

A wall of text is more condescending than getting straight to the point in my opinion.

Garbage in = Garbage out

This forum is a great example of how difficult it is to help users.

Understandable that people get annoyed and "condescending", when replying to obtuse/ranting questions.

Some of the regular helpers here are overly patient considering the volume of questions.
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Re: Rant:Being condescending to someone is a pretty bad habit

Post by absque fenestris »

legacypowers wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:48 pm
...
For example i'm a C/C++ developer(since i was 13)...
Just out of curiosity - how old are you now?
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Re: Rant:Being condescending to someone is a pretty bad habit

Post by CtrlAltDel »

legacypowers wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:54 pm


i set a bad example, mpv is great, and it is my go to player, and indeed suggesting someone to use mpv is a great advice :lol:
That's debatable; MPV and its 50+ frontends can't even open a DVD menu. A "media player" that can't properly function with an old, but still widely used, media format isn't that great an option or advice, in my opinion.

I'm looking directly into your sallow face, recently chosen default media player MPV frontend for Mint, Celluoid.
Last edited by CtrlAltDel on Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Rant:Being condescending to someone is a pretty bad habit

Post by AZgl1500 »

I try to go for the most simplistic way to help, within the scope of my "knowledge" and my Notebook.

IF, it gets too deep, I have to say "you need a real Guru here, I am not able to help you further."

my memory cells are about 15 minutes deep :oops:

so, if my Notebook can't help, I am done.

I try to avoid "talking down to anyone", have been there, and done that, it don't work.
Have been on the Receiving end of that, it don't work .
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Re: Rant:Being condescending to someone is a pretty bad habit

Post by Hoser Rob »

eu2 wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:41 pm
A wall of text is more condescending than getting straight to the point in my opinion.

Garbage in = Garbage out

This forum is a great example of how difficult it is to help users.

Understandable that people get annoyed and "condescending", when replying to obtuse/ranting questions.

Some of the regular helpers here are overly patient considering the volume of questions.
+1. A bad habit I see here often among newbies is that they think Linux is a free version of Windows. And that Linux support forums work the same way as WIndows support sites in which the people who answer the questions are being paid to be there. And then are total whiners when things turn out differently.
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Re: Rant:Being condescending to someone is a pretty bad habit

Post by eu2 »

absque fenestris wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:51 pm
legacypowers wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:48 pm
...
For example i'm a C/C++ developer(since i was 13)...
Just out of curiosity - how old are you now?
It would be so easy to get myself banned here for making a Frankie Boyle style joke.

To be fair though at that age your brain is a sponge and it's a lot easier to learn technical/abstract concepts.
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Re: Rant:Being condescending to someone is a pretty bad habit

Post by Portreve »

One of the oldest gripes about the computer world in general and the Linux world in particular is the "RTFM! attitude".

Well...

Read That Fantastic Manual, nØØbs!

:lol:

Seriously, I hope LMF has been the benefactor and reciprocater of a far better environment than that. In fact, I know this is the case because I've witnessed it with my own eyes. Even I am not quite so charitable as that sometimes. :shock:
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Re: Rant:Being condescending to someone is a pretty bad habit

Post by legacypowers »

absque fenestris wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:51 pm
legacypowers wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:48 pm
...
For example i'm a C/C++ developer(since i was 13)...
Just out of curiosity - how old are you now?
Let me put this way, im older than Debian.
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