Hurricane Ian...

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Pjotr
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Re: Hurricane Ian...

Post by Pjotr »

Hopefully the worst is over for the Floridans now. Except for dealing with the nasty damage.... You guys have my deepest sympathy.

What struck me in the footage I saw, was the apparent lack of visible flood control measures in the landscape. Where are the dikes, where are the designated flood plains, where are the wavebreakers, where are the water diverting canals, where are the storm flood barriers? To name just a few things.

Things like the storm flood barriers in the Oosterschelde in The Netherlands:
https://watersnoodmuseum.nl/wp-content/ ... 85x891.jpg

But hey, I might be making a rash judgment of course. I have very little information to judge on; just what the media chose to show in their coverage of the disaster....

Still, in other words: how well did the Florida government prepare for flooding disasters like this? Prevention can go a long way. An incredibly long way, even. Countries are far from helpless. But it does require a lot of planning and a lot of money.
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Re: Hurricane Ian...

Post by SMG »

Pjotr wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:31 pm
Hopefully the worst is over for the Floridans now.
It's still going up the Florida coast (Atlantic side). There's already significantly flooding and high tide has not yet been reached in my general area. What a lot of news stations key in on is the probability path of the eye, but this thing is much larger across than the cone. It's been raining for several days and I am 300 hundred miles (482 km) away from where the hurricane made landfall. I'm in a zone which is expecting 10-15 inches of rain from the storm, so not as bad as others are seeing.
Pjotr wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:31 pm
What struck me in the footage I saw, was the apparent lack of visible flood control measures in the landscape. Where are the dikes, where are the designated flood plains, where are the wavebreakers, where are the water diverting canals, where are the storm flood barriers? To name just a few things.
Especially in South Florida, most of the land is at or barely above sea level. A lot of the land was reclaimed from the sea. Literally, at high tide there are now roads which will flood regularly in the Miami area, especially at king tides. That is when there are no storms.

We have drainage canals and ponds for rain, but are you suggesting we put dikes and wavebreakers on the beach? The soil here is quite sandy even when one is miles inland. There are some controls in place to minimize beach erosion, but I have not really researched it to be able to give you details of control measures.

There are "barrier islands" in many places which help somewhat, but they were completely overtaken by the huge storm surge. That is why you might see two different times for landfall. First one is hitting the barrier islands. The second is for hitting the main coast. I didn't see the final official count, but I know they were talking about 12 foot (3.66 m) surge above high tide levels. That would completely flood most barrier islands.
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Re: Hurricane Ian...

Post by Pjotr »

This confirms my impressions.... I think the citizens of Florida would do well to exhort their government to take preventive action. A lot of it.

In The Netherlands, the most densely populated part of the country is below sea level (at its deepest, in the vicinity of the town of Nieuwerkerk a/d IJssel, it's almost 7 metres -or more than 7 yards- below the sea). Which means we're, floodwise, far worse off than you guys in Florida.

But we've been fighting the water literally since the Middle Ages. The country, both at the sea and river shores and inland, has huge water control systems. Ranging from simple dikes to intricate high-tech storm flood barriers, like this one:
https://watersnoodmuseum.nl/wp-content/ ... 85x891.jpg

And they do their job. Meaning to say: you can control the water. Even bloody storm floods. You have the technological skills (and if not, hire some Dutch firms). Get your government to work for you! :wink:
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Re: Hurricane Ian...

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Pjotr wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:31 pm
...Still, in other words: how well did the Florida government prepare for flooding disasters like this? Prevention can go a long way. An incredibly long way, even. Countries are far from helpless. But it does require a lot of planning and a lot of money.
And, with that last sentence, you gave yourself the answer. Our Governments are notorious for poor planning and wasting what funds are available. We do not have a centuries old history of battling the sea and inland water intrusion like you all do. Much of what you do now was implemented only in the past few decades. Also, the majority of your country has flooding potential so it's definitely the elephant in the Government's room and cannot go unnoticed. Here in the SSA, however, widespread flooding potential covers a far smaller percentage of the country. That, along with our horribly fragmented Government system with little cooperation between the individual fragments, your elephant becomes merely our pesky little fly.
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Re: Hurricane Ian...

Post by SMG »

Pjotr wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:22 pm
Meaning to say: you can control the water. Even bloody storm floods.
Every storm doesn't flood here. :? The drainage canals and ponds do work.

I just checked the numbers for Storm Eunice in the Netherlands from earlier this year. The top-end wind gusts never made it out of category 1 hurricane levels. Do you routinely gets storms with higher winds than that for which a comparison might be applicable? I didn't see any numbers for the rainfall rate per hour from Eunice to know how those might compare.
Pjotr wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:22 pm
You have the technological skills (and if not, hire some Dutch firms). Get your government to work for you! :wink:
Some already have. How Dutch stormwater management could mitigate damage from hurricanes.
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Re: Hurricane Ian...

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Lady Fitzgerald wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:40 pm

Our Governments are notorious for poor planning and wasting what funds are available.
Governments the world over have much the same reputation, however I have the impression that US citizens in particular are opposed to taxes to pay for public infrastructure leading, for example, to many of the country's bridges to being perilously close to collapse.
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Re: Hurricane Ian...

Post by SMG »

cliffcoggin wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 6:30 pm
however I have the impression that US citizens in particular are opposed to taxes to pay for public infrastructure leading, for example, to many of the country's bridges to being perilously close to collapse.
A 1.2 trillion dollar infrastructure bill was passed late last year at the federal level in the United States to address those concerns so let's steer this conversation back to the storm and the safety of those in its path and away from topics which might fall into the political realm.
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Re: Hurricane Ian...

Post by Pjotr »

Well, all I can say that as a citizen of a well-to-do country, you don't have to accept disasters like this as if they were acts of God. You can demand that your government protects you. Because it truly can. And should.

Heck, even if your country is as poor as dirt, you can demand that your government takes action. When the Dutch started to take such action, literally in the bloody Middle Ages, there wasn't exactly much money around (let alone technology).
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Re: Hurricane Ian...

Post by Lady Fitzgerald »

Pjotr wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 6:45 pm
Well, all I can say that as a citizen of a well-to-do country, you don't have to accept disasters like this as if they were acts of God. You can demand that your government protects you. Because it truly can. And should.

Heck, even if your country is as poor as dirt, you can demand that your government takes action. When the Dutch started to take such action, literally in the bloody Middle Ages, there wasn't exactly much money around (let alone technology).
Oh, we do demand that the Governments (plural deliberate) do more to protect us but, as cliffnoggin pointed out, few are willing to pay for it. I do not like paying taxes anymore than the next person but I also know and accept that it takes more money to do more. And, sadly, the ones who can afford to pay more pay less.
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Re: Hurricane Ian...

Post by Pjotr »

Anyway, that's for the long term. For the short and intermediate term, the Floridans will now have to deal with the debris, the mud and the effects of the destruction. The world is turning its attention elsewhere, but they are stuck with the unsensational mess.... :(
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Re: Hurricane Ian...

Post by Portreve »

Ok, so an update from the OP (at last!) and not in any particular order...

An estimated 2.3 million Floridians are without power. This represents a hair over 10% of the population (21,538,187 total per Wikipedia). I am one of those 2.3 million. The city I live in was one of the several places it technically made landfall (strictly speaking, it clipped the northwestern corner of it) along with direct strikes to the barrier islands of Sanibel/Captiva and Pine Island. Despite the fact that my city was one of the couple which can make that claim, I think on the whole that we fared better than the others around us.

Quick history: Sanibel and Captiva originally were one singular barrier island. At some point, they became separated. Then, after Hurricane Charley, there was a period of time where "Upper Captiva" also got split into two.

So, yesterday, my mom and I (we share a house; she's up in her years and has limited vision) decided to head out for a few days, and so at the moment (as I type this) we are up in the Tampa area. And last night is the first time we ourselves got to see video footage of our area.

I have no words. The devastation is incredible.

The whole of downtown Fort Myers is wrecked, and wrecked severely. Located directly on or within a couple kilometers of the Caloosahatchee River, it took every bit of a 3-4 m storm surge. I don't yet have an accurate handle on deaths associated with it, but I'm certain it's high.

Sanibel and Captiva are practically wiped out, as are (at least parts of) Pine Island.

Fort Myers Beach is severely damaged.

One thing we've heard is that the damage to the electrical grid is catastrophic, and a lot of it cannot be repaired; it must be rebuilt.

There's already a LOT of emergency workers, first responders, electrical folk, etc. who were pre-positioned, and many more who have been getting sent down there (multiple convoys passed by as we headed up I-75) including "Hospital Busses", which are essentially school busses which are specifically set up to transport mass quantities of EMTs, Paramedics, and resources. However, the problem right now is that they can't yet be deployed into a lot of areas because those areas are either unreachable or are still so badly flooded that it's not possible to do any work.

On our way up the interstate (for my European friends, think of that as the U.S. version of Germany's autobahn) there was an incredible amount of completely flooded areas along either side, and I'll never forget one of the exits I passed was so badly flooded that any vehicles exiting there were headed into at least wheels-deep, if not deeper, water. There's no way my car could have traveled through that particular locality.

Because my area has no electricity, we also have no city water. Because there's no electricity, there's also no operating businesses, and so that means once one's food supplies run out, you'll have to leave (until such time as power is restored). Now, bear in mind I am fully cognizant of how fortunate I am. Many other people living only a scant 10-20 km away have NOTHING. Their lives are in a twisted state of upheaval, and I have no right to complain. I'm not complaining. Nevertheless, it's still disruptive, and I'm not certain how long it will be before where I live gets power back.
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Re: Hurricane Ian...

Post by SMG »

Ian is not done. It is projected to hit the South Carolina coast as a category 1 hurricane later today.

Apparently Hurricane Charley in 2004 (a much smaller diameter storm) hit some of the same areas in Florida as Ian. Those places which had to rebuild to the newer stricter building codes regarding wind levels appear to have faired much better through Hurricane Ian than the places which were built earlier.
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Re: Hurricane Ian...

Post by The Muffin Man »

Watching yesterday reminded me of DMORT. An organization my dad worked with after he "retired". I plan on doing something similar (if not the same) when I retire. They need computer folks, too.
I'm bracing in the Carolinas now. I think mainly rain, flooding, high winds are in the forecast, but nothing like the hit Florida had.
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Re: Hurricane Ian...

Post by Pierre »

Local ham radio operators providing help as Hurricane Ian sweeps across Florida
https://www.wtva.com/news/local-ham-rad ... 70dad.html

most of these Guys are Retired and will put their equipment to an good use,
as their Ham radios are often used during disaster situations when normal phone service and internet are not available.
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Re: Hurricane Ian...

Post by MurphCID »

Pierre wrote:
Fri Sep 30, 2022 11:42 am
Local ham radio operators providing help as Hurricane Ian sweeps across Florida
https://www.wtva.com/news/local-ham-rad ... 70dad.html

most of these Guys are Retired and will put their equipment to an good use,
as their Ham radios are often used during disaster situations when normal phone service and internet are not available.
It is a pity the Navy shut down their MARS system, the Army and Air Force still have MARS and they work with the HAM guys. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_ ... dio_System
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Re: Hurricane Ian...

Post by Portreve »

Ok, we've now moved on from the previous hotel, and by way of a fantastic little breakfast at La Segunda (I've mentioned the before here on LMF) we're now at another hotel which is significantly less expensive (yay!) and fairly decent. Actually better in some respects; the last one had no hot water!

I'm starting to see that supplies are being gotten into strategic locations in Fort Myers (within Lee County) and into other places in Charlotte and Collier counties, as well as other neighboring ones. I've also been monitoring Lee County Electric Co-op's Storm Center and Outage Map pages.

I think while I'm basically doing little more than cooling my heels, I'm going to get back to working on my writing project. For the moment, I am focused on doing a re-write of the Buck Rogers in the 25th Century pilot to try and bring the sophistication and consistency levels up to a modern standard. Those interested in checking it out may do so here.
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Re: Hurricane Ian...

Post by SMG »

I had debated whether I should move my vehicle, but decided to leave it where I normally park it because there are smaller trees in that immediate area. The larger trees were several spaces to the left. I can not see the parking lot from my place, but figured because the winds hadn't gotten as bad as past storms (we just made it into tropical storm level with the gusts) that my vehicle was fine. I just went outside for the first time a few minutes ago and this is what I found.
20220930 - Hurricane Ian aftermath 2 sized.jpg
20220930 - Hurricane Ian aftermath 2 sized.jpg (91.24 KiB) Viewed 129 times
20220930 - Hurricane Ian aftermath 1 sized.jpg
20220930 - Hurricane Ian aftermath 1 sized.jpg (93.63 KiB) Viewed 129 times
We have had a wet summer and the concern was the ground being so saturated that trees would be easier to uproot. This one was top-heavy enough that a gust in just the right place sent it down and ripped the ground up pulling the roots with it. (I didn't get a photo of the roots.) I'll just have some leaves and pine needles to clean off the wind shield. Everything else is fine.
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Re: Hurricane Ian...

Post by MurphCID »

SMG wrote:
Fri Sep 30, 2022 2:10 pm
I had debated whether I should move my vehicle, but decided to leave it where I normally park it because there are smaller trees in that immediate area. The larger trees were several spaces to the left. I can not see the parking lot from my place, but figured because the winds hadn't gotten as bad as past storms (we just made it into tropical storm level with the gusts) that my vehicle was fine. I just went outside for the first time a few minutes ago and this is what I found.

20220930 - Hurricane Ian aftermath 2 sized.jpg20220930 - Hurricane Ian aftermath 1 sized.jpg

We have had a wet summer and the concern was the ground being so saturated that trees would be easier to uproot. This one was top-heavy enough that a gust in just the right place sent it down and ripped the ground up pulling the roots with it. (I didn't get a photo of the roots.) I'll just have some leaves and pine needles to clean off the wind shield. Everything else is fine.
At least you made it through with little damage. I am very glad you are fine.
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Re: Hurricane Ian...

Post by MurphCID »

Portreve wrote:
Fri Sep 30, 2022 1:51 pm
Ok, we've now moved on from the previous hotel, and by way of a fantastic little breakfast at La Segunda (I've mentioned the before here on LMF) we're now at another hotel which is significantly less expensive (yay!) and fairly decent. Actually better in some respects; the last one had no hot water!

I'm starting to see that supplies are being gotten into strategic locations in Fort Myers (within Lee County) and into other places in Charlotte and Collier counties, as well as other neighboring ones. I've also been monitoring Lee County Electric Co-op's Storm Center and Outage Map pages.

I think while I'm basically doing little more than cooling my heels, I'm going to get back to working on my writing project. For the moment, I am focused on doing a re-write of the Buck Rogers in the 25th Century pilot to try and bring the sophistication and consistency levels up to a modern standard. Those interested in checking it out may do so here.
Glad you are ok, and hope you get home fine soon.
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Re: Hurricane Ian...

Post by MurphCID »

Any updates so we can check on you all?
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