Why I still prefer Windows over Linux

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BigEasy
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Re: Why I still prefer Windows over Linux

Post by BigEasy »

borg101 wrote:The only way you'll get more devs is to make them realize there's a large enough user base for them to make products and services for.
The only way you'll get more devs is to make them realize there's a large enough user base for them to SALE products and services for.
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chrisuk
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Re: Why I still prefer Windows over Linux

Post by chrisuk »

It seems to me, that the problem with threads like this is, assumptions. People seem to assume that what they want as users, is what the developers want - I'd guess this assumption to be wrong.

Perhaps the majority of developers like the way things are, and are quite happy doing what they are doing (often for little or no financial reward). Maybe they don't want Linux to be like Windows, maybe they don't want or need success, perhaps they feel they already have it. Linux is already a successful Desktop OS, at least it is on the Desktops/Laptops in my house. I choose to use it every day, even though I have legitimate versions of Windows. I can do many of the things on Linux that I can on Windows - I can do many of the things on Windows that I can on Linux... But I can do everything I need to each day on Linux, and I can legally clone my installation to as many PCs as I want, and with dissimilar Hardware on each (I use Timeshift to clone from a single installation to the other PCs). I can't do that with Windows, it would either be illegal, expensive, wouldn't work - or all three.

But it's true to say that Linux as a Desktop OS isn't perfect for everyone - but it doesn't have to be. Just find a Distro that works for you... if there isn't one, use Windows - it has it's faults, but so does Linux ;)

Oh, and I'm not a fanboy, or even a believer in FOSS, I'm just selfish and don't like spending money - if Linux didn't work for me I wouldn't use it. Although TBH, as things stand, I'd pay for Linux if necessary, just for the sense of security I feel while using it; although I could change my mind if I had to pay, and was limited to one installation per licence.

BTW, the "Disks" utility you gave as an example is installed by default on both Mate and Cinnamon... not sure about XFCE and KDE
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Re: Why I still prefer Windows over Linux

Post by Moem »

borg101 wrote:I don't think I'm drawing conclusions about Linux. I just feel to expand the user and developer base, these are some additions that should be, at the very least, considered.
I'd say that that is a conclusion about Linux. It's certainly not a conclusion about you. Not that it matters much, of course.
borg101 wrote:
Moem wrote:[Have you tried installing from the Software Manager? It doesn't get easier than that... installing is literally one click, not even download and doubleclick. And there is so much software in there.
I have. For the most part, I would agree. However it is not always up to date. There are many packages that are two or three versions, several months or even over a year, older. Updating to the newest versions require different PPA's which have install guides but are often changed.
Very true. However, you were talking about installing 'any software'. No mention of the newest versions. You're right, that is more complicated. On Mint, that is a feature not a bug, as Fred Barclay explained.
borg101 wrote:
Moem wrote:Is it possible that you don't go looking for the simple solutions that Mint offers, because you don't expect things to be this simple?
You're assuming I didn't look as well as that I don't find it easy to use. On the contrary. It's pretty simple to use for most things. I looked for a default disk utility using keywords like "disk" "format" etc with no result.
Honest and genuinely curious question: how is that possible? Searching for 'disk' gives me the Disks utility, which has a menu in the corner with 'Format...' as the first entry. Searching for 'format' gives me the tool USB Stick Formatter. I'm on 17.3 Cinnamon; is your menu so very different from mine?
borg101 wrote: So to answer your, seemingly snarky, question with my question, does your grandmother ever format disks, install programs for the internet, or any other common tasks? Or is she just emailing and browsing the internet?
My mother's usage is somewhere in between those two. She can install programs from the Software Manager, uninstall them, keep an eye on updates. She reads the release notes on updates when she installs them and asks me about some of them. She is a user, not a power user; Mint fits her like a glove. It's not a fit for everyone but it's certainly one for her.

Personally I can format disks, create bootable USB sticks, and install programs from the internet. I don't find these things very hard. Occasionally I need to look something up, but that's rare. I've been using Mint for a year. It suits me very well, too. I've stopped using Windows.
borg101 wrote:Thank you to everyone who is willing to have a productive conversation.
You're welcome. Again, no snark here: you really are.
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Re: Why I still prefer Windows over Linux

Post by pdhunter1987 »

Sorry OP, I don't actually see the direction or point of this thread.
Yes, Linux needs more exposure to grow, but you have to be realistic.

Oh on a side note, I don't think Windows will stand the test of time, open source software is moving fast and innovating. Closed source proprietary software is only going to last so long. (See directx, now we have Vulcan coming out).

Linux is great, it's not windows (thank God for that), once you understand this and understand to grow and become mainstream it requires money and developers.

You have lots of suggestions and that's good, the Mint team may not be able to meet every thing you request but please if you love windows, use that (if they listen to the users unlike Linux) :lol:
I've used windows for about 20 years and frankly it's not that great, it's not the worse thing either.
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Re: Why I still prefer Windows over Linux

Post by Amii_Leigh »

Actually...Sometimes you feel like a nut and sometimes you don't

It took me three tries to finally stick with Linux, and after I got here, I'm happier here than I was with xp. Though sometimes, I still miss win2k and everything I could do with that. *shrugs*
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Re: Why I still prefer Windows over Linux

Post by Schultz »

Thanks for that link, Amii_Leigh. As an 8 year old at the time of the commercial, I thought the backwards jockey was the funniest thing. I had forgotten about it until I clicked your link.
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Re: Why I still prefer Windows over Linux

Post by Petermint »

In my Linux decade, I've run into showstopper bugs maybe two or three times.
I run into two or three every year, forcing me to keep Windows on at least one machine. Linux Mint damages the date/time on my images. I now have to copy from the camera to Windows then from Windows to Linux. I ended up with 10 or 20 thousand images with broken date/times before I found out about the error in Linux Mint 18.

Ok, it is not just LM 18, it is something from systemd or somewhere. Windows does some incredibly stupid things but it does not damage files.

Linux also has a configuration error that might help servers in a data centre but is a real mistake everywhere else. A disk write does not actually write...

The systemd change is one example of why it is useful to install Linux the same as Windows, wait a couple of years for a working version.

I find Linux Mint is the best version of Linux for the desktop/notebook. I like the way they fix some of the Ubuntu stupidity. The underlying Linux is still a long way from user friendly.

Raspbian is a good example of Linux because they are aiming at 8 year olds. They work on making things easier. They still crashed into the change from Debian Wheezy to Debian Jessie because their existing documentation is not updated to warn you about the change. Their forums are flooded with people describing configuration problems after using the existing documentation on the new Jessie based Rasbian.

I am all for discussing the GUI approach. I started using disks a long time ago and still see brand new posts telling beginners to use *%&^&^%@ in the Linux DOS box teletype emulator. I am sure there are hard core Linux users that still ignore their $8000 touch screen notebook and use paper tape input. :D
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Re: Why I still prefer Windows over Linux

Post by MintBean »

I think stability will improve considerably in the next 2-3 years. There are just too many big projects going on at the moment that inevitably introduce bugs or stretch limited manpower resources but these will mature and I think in many instances they will be a long-lived solution as opposed to a wheel that will be reinvented in the near future.

SystemD
Mir/Wayland
Snap
Convergence and Unity 8 in Ubuntu
Docker and other emerging cloud management technologies
Vulkan

In terms of Mint 18, it is based on Ubuntu 16.04 which I think was a particularly ropey release with a bunch of bugs.
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Re: Why I still prefer Windows over Linux

Post by pdhunter1987 »

MintBean wrote:I think stability will improve considerably in the next 2-3 years. There are just too many big projects going on at the moment that inevitably introduce bugs or stretch limited manpower resources but these will mature and I think in many instances they will be a long-lived solution as opposed to a wheel that will be reinvented in the near future.

SystemD
Mir/Wayland
Snap
Convergence and Unity 8 in Ubuntu
Docker and other emerging cloud management technologies
Vulkan

In terms of Mint 18, it is based on Ubuntu 16.04 which I think was a particularly ropey release with a bunch of bugs.

Good point! In the Linux world is alot of innovation (open source world in general) whereas windows isn't doing anything interesting.

Although your correct, lots of big projects and bugs to go with it.
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Fred Barclay
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Re: Why I still prefer Windows over Linux

Post by Fred Barclay »

Petermint wrote:Linux Mint damages the date/time on my images.
That's because Linux and Windows treat your hardware clock differently. Not better or worse, just differently.
See https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Du ... e_standard for options on fixing this.
I now have to copy from the camera to Windows then from Windows to Linux. I ended up with 10 or 20 thousand images with broken date/times before I found out about the error in Linux Mint 18.

Ok, it is not just LM 18, it is something from systemd or somewhere. Windows does some incredibly stupid things but it does not damage files.
Probably an ntfs-formatted drive?
Ntfs support in Linux was reverse-engineered so there are undeniably some bugs.
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Re: Why I still prefer Windows over Linux

Post by Petermint »

That's because Linux and Windows treat your hardware clock differently. Not better or worse, just differently.
The official story, as told to me in another thread, is broken FAT code in Linux. Linux used to display the actual file date and assume all file dates are accurate. Starting with systemd, it does something different.

Linux Mint 18/systemd introduced different date processing without fixing the FAT code to match. The NTFS code was fixed. I have to copy from FAT to NTFS in Windows then NTFS to Ext4 in Linux.

There is a suggested fix based on changing a setting in Linux but there are forum posts listing problems caused by the change. Where was the warning about the change? I still have not found an official explanation of the change despite knowing the search terms.

The end result is, I have to use Windows for another year or two. Before LM 18, it was another reason. Despite many years of trying to switch off Windows, starting back with Mandrake, things like systemd keep breaking Linux somewhere.
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Re: Why I still prefer Windows over Linux

Post by pdhunter1987 »

What the funny thing is, when windows crashes or causes "showstopping bugs" we carry on and just accept it because we have no choice. :lol:

When "Linux" has issues we go back to what "worked".

Sorry to hear problems your having Petermint!
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Re: Why I still prefer Windows over Linux

Post by Petermint »

Today it is Bluetooth. The Bluetooth configuration from the icon worked in LM 17. LM 18 Bluetooth is absolutely useless. Primitive. The display says almost nothing. There are no options to configure a device. Every other OS has something useful, informative, and with options to set a configuration for a specific device. LM 18 Bluetooth is way down there at the stupid level you expect from Apple. :x
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Re: Why I still prefer Windows over Linux

Post by Petermint »

I had this before. Something stupid. You can only send, not receive. You have to do something special to receive. I configured LM 17 but the configuration option is lost in LM 18.

Read: viewtopic.php?t=226721
Something useful removed because it is a GUI. Linux developers hate GUI. If it is sensible or easy then kill it.

I use Bluetooth about once per year and every use is the most painful experience wasting hours. It is faster to take the phone apart, remove the microSD card, then use Windows to work around the broken FAT code in Linux or to just book Windows and use a working Bluetooth.

That is two reasons, in two weeks, to keep windows. :roll:
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Re: Why I still prefer Windows over Linux

Post by MintBean »

Peter, I understand you are frustrated. You have 3 choices:

1) Get fed up, drop Linux and go back to Windows.
2) Become despondent, stick with Mint but whinge about the problems continuously.
3) Become part of the solution. Gather as much information as you can about the problem, and raise a bug report. Make it concise but with as much information to help the Mint team diagnose the problem as possible.

The Mint gang really are trying to fix all these little issues and their track record shows they want to make everything easily achievable through the GUI. Just give them a chance and help them where you can. It's in your best interest to at least have an alternative to Windows.
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Re: Why I still prefer Windows over Linux

Post by killer de bug »

Petermint wrote:Something useful removed because it is a GUI. Linux developers hate GUI. If it is sensible or easy then kill it.
:roll: Linux Mint dev made a GUI for bluetooth... :roll:
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.
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Re: Why I still prefer Windows over Linux

Post by pdhunter1987 »

Petermint wrote:Something useful removed because it is a GUI. Linux developers hate GUI. If it is sensible or easy then kill it.
False.
So many GUI tools and software it's not funny. Want to install software? Sudo apt install (name)
OR
Left click start menu, got "software centre" find software left click "install".
Just a quick example.
Petermint wrote: I use Bluetooth about once per year
Wow, what a annual pain that must be! :roll:
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Re: Why I still prefer Windows over Linux

Post by BG405 »

LM18 is still in its infancy. I'd wait for the point releases (first one due very soon) and see whether these bugs have been ironed out.

Although I see plenty of posts relating to Bluetooth issues, this is certainly not unique to Linux. In Windows, I had to pay for BlueSoleil to get a working file-transfer system, despite having already paid for the machine and the software to run on it (Windows). Thanks Toshiba/MS/supplied-bluetooth-stack-authors. A bit of research has gotten everything to work on Linux and a decent BT card (in my case a newly installed Atheros AR5B225 WiFi & Bluetooth 4.0 Combo) worked right out of the box; no drivers needed. Speakers connect although I usually have to set the Audio Profile to "High Fidelity Playback (A2DP)" as it tends to default to "Off", file transfers work from any paired device and it's reasonably quick. Though putting the card into a reader is always going to be quicker for significant file transfers.

As for software updating, I'd largely forgotten about the hassle, nag screens etc. & being prompted to perform an update before I can use the software. Windows Updates? ...UGH :|
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Re: Why I still prefer Windows over Linux

Post by Petermint »

Microsoft are well known for never fixing some problems. Many years ago, I reported a serious problem and supplied a fix. The next release of Windows contained the same problem because they cut the development version of Windows before applying my fix. I tried to report the problem and fix for the new release but Microsoft said I had to pay a $135 service fee to report the problem. That is one area where Linux saves some money. :shock:

Microsoft did not get the $135. Some computers under my control switched to Linux. Based on the feedback from my publishing stories like that, somewhere over 10,000 desktop computers switched to Linux.

Unfortunately most of those organisations have to keep some computers running Windows. My posts here are about why I have to keep Windows running on at least one computer. The discussion should help the development of Linux. Instead I find people saying we should somehow treat Linux as a special case.

We officially do not like Windows because new releases introduce errors but we have to like Linux despite a new release introducing errors plus regressions. We officially do not like Windows because the new user interface is dumb compared to the previous release but we have to like it when Linux does exactly the same.
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Re: Why I still prefer Windows over Linux

Post by sphyrth »

We don't like Windows for a number of reasons.

Well, I can SAY that I still like Windows (specifically XP and 7), but I FUNCTION as if I don't.
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