Ontario, Canada

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Pat D
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Ontario, Canada

Post by Pat D »

So new rules here. Post-secondary education is now free. Tuiton = nada. My daughters are lovin' it. :D
Health care works well here, too. Dentists we actually have to have insurance for if we don't want to pay. Life sucks, eh?

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Re: Ontario, Canada

Post by all41 »

Pat D wrote:So new rules here. Post-secondary education is now free. Tuiton = nada. My daughters are lovin' it. :D
Health care works well here, too. Dentists we actually have to have insurance for if we don't want to pay. Life sucks, eh?
Thumbs up on no tuition.

My dentist is Dr. Butcher (true).
The name really sinks in when you get the bill, though.

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richyrich
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Re: Ontario, Canada

Post by richyrich »

And in Saskatchewan, seniors and cancer patients who relied on Provincial Transit to get to the city hospitals for treatment, now have NO way to get there . . Ref: New Saskatchewan 2017 Provincial Budget - in effect at the end of this month. :(

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jimallyn
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Re: Ontario, Canada

Post by jimallyn »

I suppose this will soon drift into politics, which is forbidden on these forums, so I will just say that, living in the only developed nation in the world that doesn't have a health care plan for all of its citizens, I am jealous.
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Pat D
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Re: Ontario, Canada

Post by Pat D »

Actually, I wasn't even thinking of politics and not going there. I am just so overjoyed for my kids in Univ. I had to share. :D
FREE SCHOOL FOR EVERYBODY!!!

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CaptainKirksChair
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Re: Ontario, Canada

Post by CaptainKirksChair »

Wow.

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Re: Ontario, Canada

Post by Citizen229 »

Hate to burst your bubble but.... government is not a business. It does not create anything. It can only give that which it has taken.
When everyone has a 4 year degree, it will be worthless because those people will be a dime a dozen. This will be compounded by the amount of useless( outside of STEM) degrees. America is in that situation right now. The Populace is so brainwashed to having a degree and decades of financial debt(slavery), that the most desired jobs that need filled and cannot are Trade jobs. Electrical, tooling/machining, etc. This is further compounded by the uselessness of "well rounded"" education. We now have immigration of STEM persons to the US. While natural born persons aspire for useless art/ "feel good" degrees. 2 persons in my family have useless degrees. A sister with an art degree who went back to school to be a Dental hygenist. As well as my wife who has a general biology degree. Now while a science degree, it is absolutely worthless because it is not specialized and she now works in a factory. you may think this is a political post and its not. Its an economics post. The more of something you have the less it is worth.
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Re: Ontario, Canada

Post by Citizen229 »

Just a heads up Pat....

I dont know how many Americans you deal with in real life or on the web. But when you start talking about free things from government, you will run into( an OMG amount) of people like me. Your topic is very political if you see it that way or not. Down here things of that nature are hot button topics, and best kept to yourself. These kinds of topics can get out of hand real fast. You are talking to more than just Canadians here. It may be hard to believe but there are people who are disgusted by socialism. Im the type of person who is not afraid to offend people by what I say. But here I have too, because this isnt my house I am just a guest here.
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Re: Ontario, Canada

Post by Pat D »

Absolutely correct, I'm way too close to that line. Again, apologies, didn't think of it and I hear what you say. Like I said, just excited for my kids, period.

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Re: Ontario, Canada

Post by Citizen229 »

Now economically speaking, her education is not free. Everyone is paying for it in taxes, as well as the direct devaluation of money through printing, also known as inflation. I dont know about Canada, but when it comes to the printing press, banks control ours. And since the government cannot print money, it just makes IOU's called the national debt. If they printed the money to cover the debt, we would have cold war Soviet era prices here. $100 loaves of bread etc. You are excited about the little picture. The big picture is the scary one that is created by your happy little picture. Remember its only great until you run out of other peoples money to spend. Currently down here we are spending our children, grand children, and great grandchildren into debt. I think they estimated every person born since 2000 has basically $40k debt they owe at birth followed by 16-18 years of interest. this assumes they work instead of go to college and make more direct debt.

I find very little to be excited about it.
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MintyO
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Re: Ontario, Canada

Post by MintyO »

Citizen229,
Value is a concept that depends on many things. Costs somewhere provide goods or services elsewhere. There's also individuals who benefit on certain situation so that it can be said "something was free". Very basic human groups (think tribes if it helps) could just go get what they needed. Interactions with other groups led to trading ( way to get something needed more easily than other means). .. skip .. Now we have "money". Totally made up thing that only works because we say it works (and this is a point that can/an is argued).

You say economically speaking, but to me seems like you like to push it to some arguing over politics (which economics talked like this almost is). Which is fine by me, but why do this after the OP has said many times that he doesn't want this topic to go there.

The example about degrees seems to make sense but is a poor one all the same. Many countries have provided free university education and it hasn't lead to the same results. This is a cause and effect that gets boiled into the results by something else in the US system.

OP,
If I'd have to choose any country in the world to live (think of a "welcome to the planet, what would it be" situation), Canada might be the one for me. About the free education: Congrats! We have it where I live too. :wink:
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CaptainKirksChair
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Re: Ontario, Canada

Post by CaptainKirksChair »

Now economically speaking, her education is not free. Everyone is paying for it in taxes...
Citizen229 -- THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR TELLING THE TRUTH!

Many people don't understand economics; before a government can spend a dollar, they must first steal a dollar. (Just because you call it "taxes" doesn't make it any less of theft.) This entire idea of "free" education is myth. (Read anything by Milton Friedman for the truth.) Government may be able to defray the costs over many people, but it still costs. So while a few people mislead themselves to believe their education is free, the increase in taxes to pay for all of that is felt by those that now have less of their salary for their needs.

And this isn't politics. This IS economics, and economic fact.

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MintyO
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Re: Ontario, Canada

Post by MintyO »

Taxes aren't governments' only source of income. You could even make a system without taxation of the citizens. People need to learn the subject more thoroughly. Using words like "economic fact" just shows how superficial your understanding is. But feel free to believe what you want. I knew it was a mistake to take part in this, so :arrow:
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Re: Ontario, Canada

Post by Citizen229 »

Mintyo please reread my post. I list the other 2 forms of silent taxation by national debt as well as the silent tax of inflationary money printing. Some taxes are needed. The one thats is the most disgusting is property tax. But it is needed to keep billionaires from buying up large amounts of land and sitting on it to drive real estate values upward. This is an example of proper taxation to give stability to a market. Taking peoples money so "Fluffy McSnowflake" can get a degree like everyone else, is not creating market stability. It is creating an artificial demand for an unneeded product. Fluffy will waste other peoples money when Fluffy cannot get a job in his/her field. Because those jobs will all be filled by the millions of other Fluffies with the same degree. Now some Fluffies will also negotiate/given a LOWER wage so Fluffy can get the job over the other Fluffies. This will drive wages down for everyone. so in the end everyone will have spent billions of dollars on common education to save the Corporations billions of dollars on Salary. In a round about way it is corporate welfare not people welfare. Since the corprations will be the real winners in this.
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Re: Ontario, Canada

Post by Citizen229 »

This has been a FREE education lesson by the Citizen229 Education Foundation.
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Re: Ontario, Canada

Post by jimallyn »

Personally, I like having public schools to educate my kids, roads upon which to drive my car, fire departments in case my house catches fire, libraries filled with books to read to educate myself or just to entertain myself, and so on. I also like having a society of educated people. Even if not every person needs a degree to do their job, I think it is still a good thing to have an educated populace. I also like the idea of single payer universal health care. Sick people are a drain on society and the economy, so investments in keeping people healthy just make sense. All but one of the developed nations provide health care for all their citizens, and that winds up costing less than health care in the one nation that doesn't provide it. Plus they also have better health outcomes (lower infant mortality rate, longer life spans, etc.) than the one nation that doesn't provide health care for all its citizens. For the most part, I don't consider taxes to be stealing my money, with the one glaring exception of the trillion or so dollars spent each year by the government of the country I live in on killing poor brown people in far-off lands. (And of course the money given to profitable corporations as tax breaks and subsidies.) Now, if you want to talk about stealing (money, goods, whatever), let's talk about the 6 men who together possess as much wealth as the poorest half of the population combined possesses. Each of them has as much wealth as 617 million other people have. I suppose some would say that they worked harder and earned that wealth, but I have yet to hear an adequate explanation of how one person can work 617 million times as hard as any other person. Anybody that has that much wealth didn't get it by working harder for it, and I am more inclined to agree with Honoré de Balzac, who said, “Behind every great fortune there is a crime.”
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Re: Ontario, Canada

Post by xdicey »

Pat D wrote:So new rules here. Post-secondary education is now free. Tuiton = nada. My daughters are lovin' it. :D
Health care works well here, too. Dentists we actually have to have insurance for if we don't want to pay. Life sucks, eh?
Pat D,
My kid starting at Waterloo this Sept. Not 'nada' for me. I did hear the rumour, still hearing it so you gotta point me to the 'freebie dept.' 'cause I can't find it :( .
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sammiev
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Re: Ontario, Canada

Post by sammiev »

xdicey wrote:
Pat D wrote:So new rules here. Post-secondary education is now free. Tuiton = nada. My daughters are lovin' it. :D
Health care works well here, too. Dentists we actually have to have insurance for if we don't want to pay. Life sucks, eh?
Pat D,
My kid starting at Waterloo this Sept. Not 'nada' for me. I did hear the rumour, still hearing it so you gotta point me to the 'freebie dept.' 'cause I can't find it :( .
+1 Have one in Ottawa U and looking for the same info. Please share the link.

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Re: Ontario, Canada

Post by Pat D »

i was outside a Service Canada office the other day, and met a crowd of college students wearing OSAP sweaters (OSAP = Ontario Student Awards Program, which lends out the money) who were accosting everyone and handing out flyers explaining that College/University tuition is now free. A while back when this was first talked about, there was mention of an income line, over which one would still pay tuition, but these kids didn't know about that. I don't know why they would have been "costumed" and out there if this wasn't true. My kids are saying it too, that their school OSAP office has contacted them, etc.

So if you get info that this is all a hoax...oh boy! that would be a bummer. :(

But anyway, I believe that any "costs" incurred by "free" education are going to way more than pay for themselves. eg the Nordic countries. That's what I'm hoping for.

Edit - I found this link:

https://www.ontario.ca/page/get-ready-osap-2017-18

Half way down. This is from last year sometime, I don't know if it all still applies. It's here that it puts a $50,000 income as the limit.

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Re: Ontario, Canada

Post by xdicey »

Hmmm . . . partial grant, partial loan. Half a loaf. . . and all that :|.

Thanks P.
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