Google meets...

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michael louwe
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Re: Google meets...

Post by michael louwe » Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:15 am

@ andyO, .......
andyO wrote:Android is an open-source system, meaning that it can be freely used and developed by anyone to create a modified mobile operating system (a so-called "Android fork"). However, if a manufacturer wishes to pre-install Google proprietary apps, including Google Play Store and Google Search, on any of its devices, Google requires it to enter into an "Anti-Fragmentation Agreement" that commits it not to sell devices running on Android forks..
Some background information.
.
The most obvious lock-in was the requirement for any manufacturer wanting to gain access to what used to be called the Android Market (now the Play Store) and to leverage the Android brand (trademarked by Google) to sign up to the OHA – and signing up to the OHA meant signing up to an anti-fragmentation agreement. This agreement is a non-disclosure one, but in practice, it means not releasing handsets that failed the compatibility test suite (CTS), and the CTS was and is controlled by Google.
https://mobiforge.com/news-comment/andr ... sy-for-now (Android forks: Why Google can rest easy. For now , October 9, 2014, by Ruadhán O'Donoghue)
.
https://www.phonearena.com/news/Android ... an_id59003 (Android forks are now 20% of the ecosystem. What is Google's plan? Posted: 05 Aug 2014, 22:04 , posted by Michael H. )
https://www.zdnet.com/article/eelo-a-go ... e-emerges/ (Eelo: A Google-less Android alternative emerges; Linux pioneer Gaël Duval is working on an easy-to-use, Google-free, pro-privacy Android clone for your smartphone. By Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols for Linux and Open Source | January 2, 2018)

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thx-1138
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Re: Google meets...

Post by thx-1138 » Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:55 am

That's how the free-market works. No OEM or user is being forced to use Google's Android or her other free software...
It is also based on the free-market economy for Google to pay OEMs and Telcos to preinstall free Google software...
It is not a crime or illegal to be a market winner and to enjoy the fruits of her labor, eg rich profits and advantageous market position -
Google Search, Maps, Chrome, Android, etc...
No, it's obviously not a crime / illegal to be a market winner. All the rest aformentioned possibly are - depending on the status of the law.
And regardless of your insistence in Google's 'free' products & anyone's possible blind faith in the existence of...invisible hands,
such laws exist and predate such since...1700 years...and still continue to exist today, almost universally.

First it's the EU who doesn't appreciate Google's greatness. Then it's the US-based Mozilla who are sore losers.
Have a look at Russia, and also, South Korea as well. Let's skip Russia (although they play by free market's rules since '91).
Surely South Korea though has been very much 'liberal' - even close to taking Japan's place in some areas?
Is there a universal conspiracy against your beloved Google? Nope - it's the fact that anti-trust laws exist universally, see above...

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Re: Google meets...

Post by andyO » Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:06 am

Thank you for posting the links michael - interesting reading.

Maybe we are on tangents, but my understanding of what the EU says that Google has been doing is as follows (a made up example to illustrate my understanding):

~~~
Manufacturer "SpiffyPhone" currently makes three phone handsets SpiffyA, SpiffyB and SpiffyB which it sells running "stock" Android with Google play services pre-installed. Everyone is happy.

SpiffyPhone then plans to market a new model "SpiffySpoon" which will run a forked version of Android, the manufacturer doesn't plan to ship that phone with any proprietary apps pre-installed.

When Google learns of the plans for the SpiffySpoon device, it tells SpiffyPhone that it will no longer allow them to install Google play services on their existing "stock" Android SpiffyA, SpiffyB and SpiffyB handsets anymore if they bring SpiffySpoon to market.
~~~

Is that understanding correct? If so, I do not believe it is fair for companies to exert that kind of pressure on device manufacturers. Other people may think that would be acceptable, I don't though.

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Re: Google meets...

Post by michael louwe » Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:44 am

thx-1138 wrote:.
.
andyO wrote:.
.
Maybe, Google should take the Apple route, ie stops licensing her Android and Play Store to the OEMs and be the sole distributor. Then, the Europeans will be happy.?

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Re: Google meets...

Post by thx-1138 » Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:03 am

...michael, i'm probably the least qualified person to make suggestions on what Google should do...
(i'd be interested though in what others have to suggest though)...

...(besides the law aspect / possible violation), all i'm saying, cliché as it may sound,
is that from theory ('Android is free') to practice (the actual status / effect in the market), there's always a difference...

In theory, a 'newbie' fires up a Youtube video installation tutorial in his/her shiny Android phone,
clicks next-next-next =>...and 15 mins later he/she is into Linux...
In practice though instead, as we know...it's probably monsieur louwe that comes to the rescue... :wink:

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Re: Google meets...

Post by michael louwe » Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:46 pm

thx-1138 wrote:.
andyO wrote:.
.
What is Intellectual Property?

Intellectual property (IP) refers to creations of the mind, such as inventions; literary and artistic works; designs; and symbols, names and images used in commerce.

IP is protected in law by, for example, patents, copyright and trademarks, which enable people to earn recognition or financial benefit from what they invent or create. By striking the right balance between the interests of innovators and the wider public interest, the IP system aims to foster an environment in which creativity and innovation can flourish.

1. A patent is an exclusive right granted for an invention. Generally speaking, a patent provides the patent owner with the right to decide how - or whether - the invention can be used by others. In exchange for this right, the patent owner makes technical information about the invention publicly available in the published patent document.

2. Copyright is a legal term used to describe the rights that creators have over their literary and artistic works. Works covered by copyright range from books, music, paintings, sculpture and films, to computer programs, databases, advertisements, maps and technical drawings.

3. A trademark is a sign capable of distinguishing the goods or services of one enterprise from those of other enterprises. Trademarks date back to ancient times when artisans used to put their signature or "mark" on their products.
http://www.wipo.int/about-ip/en/
.
I think Google was only exercising her Intellectual Property rights wrt the Anti-Fragmentation Agreements for Android that was imposed on her OEM partners. It would only be anti-competitive and anti-trust if Google had forced the OEMs and Telcos from selling Apple iPhones, M$ Lumia phones, Amazon's Fire phones, Jolla phones, etc.
....... Did Google/Android use anti-competitive agreements with the OEMs to kill off M$'s Win 10 Mobile, Mozilla's Firefox OS, Ubuntu Touch, Nokia X and Blackberry OS.? ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_operating_system
.

Also, ... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ng-devices
By Mark Gurman
December 6, 2017, 5:02 AM GMT+8 Updated on December 6, 2017, 5:55 AM GMT+8

1. YouTube app to be removed from retailer’s Echo Show, Fire TV
2. Amazon doesn’t sell some Google hardware, latest Nest products

Google Blocks YouTube Access From Amazon's Streaming Devices

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Re: Google meets...

Post by Portreve » Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:39 pm

michael louwe wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:44 am
Maybe, Google should take the Apple route, ie stops licensing her Android and Play Store to the OEMs and be the sole distributor. Then, the Europeans will be happy.?
To the extent that components of Android OS are licensed under any version of the GPL or other really really similar f/oss licenses, it would be highly problematic, if not legally impossible, for Alphabet to go the Apple route for OS distribution.
Everything is in hand. With this tapestry... and with patience, there is nothing one cannot achieve.

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Re: Google meets...

Post by michael louwe » Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:12 am

Portreve wrote:.
.
Android is a trademark of Google Inc or Alphabet. Play Store and Android Developer APIs are Google's proprietary software. Like Red Hat Linux Enterprise OS, Google can go the iOS/iPhones route with her Android-phones(eg only Google devices can be pre-installed with Android 8.0 Oreo).

Of course, Android-forks can still continue and compete, eg Amazon's Fire OS smartphones, Jolla's Sailfish OS smartphones, Nokia X's smartphones, etc but they cannot use the Android name, Google Play Store and Android Developer APIs.

If this were to happen, the Europeans will likely be "stuck" with the 'limited' choice of buying Apple iPhones, Amazon's Fire-phones, Jolla-phones or Nokia's X phones while USA and the Rest of the World will still be able to buy Google's Android-phones.

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Re: Google meets...

Post by Portreve » Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:18 am

And this addresses what I said how, exactly?

Alphabet is evidently working on their own, unifying in-house OS, at the moment known as Fuchsia. It will be interesting to see how they go about licensing it to hardware makers, the degree to which it will be libre licensed, etc.

I'm still keeping an eye on Purism because, app availability aside, it represents much of what I want in a technology device.
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Re: Google meets...

Post by Moem » Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:55 am

Portreve wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:18 am
I'm still keeping an eye on Purism because, app availability aside, it represents much of what I want in a technology device.
You and me both. I don't use many apps as it is. The most powerful app is the browser nowadays.
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Re: Google meets...

Post by Portreve » Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:34 am

Moem wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:55 am
Portreve wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:18 am
I'm still keeping an eye on Purism because, app availability aside, it represents much of what I want in a technology device.
You and me both. I don't use many apps as it is. The most powerful app is the browser nowadays.
Here's what I need:
WhatsApp, Signal, Telegram, etc.¹
GPS navigation
Cloud-based calendar
Cloud-based office software

¹ What really irks me about encryption today is that it's like the 1980s all over again, with nothing but empire builders and no focus whatsoever on interoperability. I don't factually know if empire building is literally a factor, but in a way, it sort of is because everyone's running in their own direction.
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Re: Google meets...

Post by Moem » Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:06 am

Portreve wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:34 am
... Signal, Telegram, ...
GPS navigation ...
I have these three running on a Google-free smartphone, so that's possible for sure.
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Re: Google meets...

Post by Portreve » Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:10 am

Moem wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:06 am
Portreve wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:34 am
... Signal, Telegram, ...
GPS navigation ...
I have these three running on a Google-free smartphone, so that's possible for sure.
How did you manage that? I'm not aware of them writing that software for anything except Android and iOS.
Everything is in hand. With this tapestry... and with patience, there is nothing one cannot achieve.

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Re: Google meets...

Post by Moem » Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:19 am

Well, what I'm using is (mostly) Android but sans Google. Not all, but most Android software will run on it. Of course, that makes things lots easier than it will be with a non-Android OS.
I can't use the Google Playstore, but there are other sources of apps. Telegram, for example, is offered through F-droid. https://f-droid.org/en/
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Re: Google meets...

Post by michael louwe » Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:58 am

Portreve wrote:I'm still keeping an eye on Purism because, app availability aside, it represents much of what I want in a technology device.
Sounds like another failed Android-fork, eg Cyanogen (and Amazon's Fire Phones).

China is a communist country which does not respect International Intellectual Property rights. Nothing much good comes out from such an over-populated country, eg greed, selfishness, power abuse, corruption, etc. Hopefully, the EU does not follow China's footsteps. ...
https://www.androidodex.com/install-goo ... ones-root/
If you ever get an Android device from China, chances are it will be missing Google play store. That’s because of China’s policies that the ROMs developed doesn’t have Google play store. Some of the widely used applications like Facebook, Instagram and Twitter don’t come pre-installed on the devices.
.
https://www.appinchina.co/market/
Google Play Store ... 0.15%
Tencent MyApp ... 13.49%
.
Eg of China-made Android-fork phones, ... https://www.howtogeek.com/340174/its-ti ... m-oneplus/ (It’s Time to Stop Buying Phones from OnePlus; by Cameron Summerson on January 23rd, 2018 )
Last edited by michael louwe on Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Google meets...

Post by Moem » Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:57 am

michael louwe wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:58 am
Portreve wrote:I'm still keeping an eye on Purism because, app availability aside, it represents much of what I want in a technology device.
Sounds like another failed Android-fork, eg Cyanogen.
You can keep guessing, or you can look it up and inform yourself. Wait, I'll save you the first part...
https://puri.sm/shop/librem-5/
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Re: Google meets...

Post by GS3 » Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:05 pm

michael louwe wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:58 am
China is a communist country which does not respect International Intellectual Property rights. Nothing much good comes out from such an over-populated country, eg greed, selfishness, power abuse, corruption, etc.
So much ignorance and prejudice about China. If you could read Chinese you could read similar things said about America in Chinese forums. Well, these days you can read them in European and American forums as well.
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Re: Google meets...

Post by michael louwe » Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:11 pm

GS3 wrote: If you could read Chinese you could read similar things said about America in Chinese forums.
Are you saying that USA does not respect International Intellectual Property rights, eg condone software piracy of Chinese tech companies.?

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Re: Google meets...

Post by Portreve » Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:59 pm

michael louwe wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:58 am
Sounds like another failed Android-fork, eg Cyanogen (and Amazon's Fire Phones).
No, it doesn't run Android. PureOS is a fork of Debian.
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Re: Google meets...

Post by michael louwe » Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:45 am

Portreve wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:59 pm
michael louwe wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:58 am
Sounds like another failed Android-fork, eg Cyanogen (and Amazon's Fire Phones).
No, it doesn't run Android. PureOS is a fork of Debian.
In that case, Purism's Librem 5 sounds more like the failed Canonical Inc's Ubuntu Touch and Mozilla's Firefox OS.

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