Google to charge Europe

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Arch_Enemy
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Re: Google to charge Europe

Post by Arch_Enemy » Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:11 am

gm10 wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:01 am
Arch_Enemy wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:49 am
Flemur wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:25 am

Apparently they're mostly going to be protected from the insidious pre-installed the Google Search app, and might now be forced to, er, I meant, encouraged to, to type in "google.com" (or google.co.uk, etc) after paying extra for a browser in which to type "google.com".
.../sarcasm...sort of.
Opera is free, as is Firefox.
Exactly, and that's the whole point. The situation is basically a mirror of the Microsoft situation and their forced bundling of their own software. The forced bundling is, of course, to push out the competition, which is why you run afoul of anti-trust laws if you've got a market-dominant position while doing so. That's why the EU decision isn't unexpected.
I don't think I ever used Internet Explorer. I always favoured Netscape, and then Firefox, and Opera on my Blackberrys, because they were second hand and I didn't have access to RIM servers. Always worked!
I have travelled 35629424162.9 miles in my lifetime

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When the system fails, reinstall and use the exact same username and all your 'stuff' comes back to you.

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Re: Google to charge Europe

Post by Moem » Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:25 am

catweazel wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:33 am
Moem wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:19 am
They even get to express it here! :wink:
There was absolutely no suggestion to the contrary.
We can agree on that; indeed there wasn't.
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Re: Google to charge Europe

Post by Moem » Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:28 am

Arch_Enemy wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:11 am
I don't think I ever used Internet Explorer. I always favoured Netscape, and then Firefox, and Opera on my Blackberrys, because they were second hand and I didn't have access to RIM servers. Always worked!
For me it was Netscape, then K-Meleon, then for a long time SeaMonkey (which is pretty much a child of the old Netscape suite) and now Waterfox, with Vivaldi as a spare in case I want something Chromium-based.
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Arch_Enemy
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Re: Google to charge Europe

Post by Arch_Enemy » Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:34 am

Moem wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:28 am
Arch_Enemy wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:11 am
I don't think I ever used Internet Explorer. I always favoured Netscape, and then Firefox, and Opera on my Blackberrys, because they were second hand and I didn't have access to RIM servers. Always worked!
For me it was Netscape, then K-Meleon, then for a long time SeaMonkey (which is pretty much a child of the old Netscape suite) and now Waterfox, with Vivaldi as a spare in case I want something Chromium-based.
Darn. You folks in Europe always get the good stuff! (going to have to look those up.)
I have travelled 35629424162.9 miles in my lifetime

One thing I would suggest, create a partition a ~28G partition as /. Partition the rest as /Home.
When the system fails, reinstall and use the exact same username and all your 'stuff' comes back to you.

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Re: Google to charge Europe

Post by Arch_Enemy » Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:43 am

Moem wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:28 am
Arch_Enemy wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:11 am
I don't think I ever used Internet Explorer. I always favoured Netscape, and then Firefox, and Opera on my Blackberrys, because they were second hand and I didn't have access to RIM servers. Always worked!
For me it was Netscape, then K-Meleon, then for a long time SeaMonkey (which is pretty much a child of the old Netscape suite) and now Waterfox, with Vivaldi as a spare in case I want something Chromium-based.
Whoa...

Just tried Waterfox. A LOT faster than Firefox!!!! And I got my old plugins back!!
I have travelled 35629424162.9 miles in my lifetime

One thing I would suggest, create a partition a ~28G partition as /. Partition the rest as /Home.
When the system fails, reinstall and use the exact same username and all your 'stuff' comes back to you.

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Re: Google to charge Europe

Post by michael louwe » Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:48 am

gm10 wrote:Exactly, and that's the whole point. The situation is basically a mirror of the Microsoft situation and their forced bundling of their own software. The forced bundling is, of course, to push out the competition, which is why you run afoul of anti-trust laws if you've got a market-dominant position while doing so. That's why the EU decision isn't unexpected.
.
Today, M$'s Windows is still market-dominant in Europe, even though the EU had decided that M$ could not forced-bundle certain free M$-apps in Windows N editions, which now seems to be a pretty misguided or foolish decision. The users or market determine who dominates, not the EU decisions, especially misguided/foolish ones.

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Re: Google to charge Europe

Post by gm10 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:03 am

michael louwe wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:48 am
gm10 wrote:Exactly, and that's the whole point. The situation is basically a mirror of the Microsoft situation and their forced bundling of their own software. The forced bundling is, of course, to push out the competition, which is why you run afoul of anti-trust laws if you've got a market-dominant position while doing so. That's why the EU decision isn't unexpected.
.
Today, M$'s Windows is still market-dominant in Europe, even though the EU had decided that M$ could not forced-bundle certain free M$-apps in Windows N editions, which now seems to be a pretty misguided or foolish decision. The users or market determine who dominates, not the EU decisions, especially misguided/foolish ones.
You are missing the point. The EU (and US) decisions weren't about making Windows less market dominant. They were about unbundling the software that comes with it. And Internet Explorer is no longer the dominant browser, Chrome is. So goal achieved, and the laws that were enforced by these decisions appear to have been spot on from my perspective.

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Re: Google to charge Europe

Post by michael louwe » Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:09 am

gm10 wrote: You are missing the point. The EU (and US) decisions weren't about making Windows less market dominant. They were about unbundling the software that comes with it. And Internet Explorer is no longer the dominant browser, Chrome is. So goal achieved, and the laws that were enforced by these decisions appear to have been spot on from my perspective.
.
Fyi, Chrome is Google, and there's forced-bundling in Google's Chrome and Chrome OS also.

Maybe, the EU should go after Apple also for forced-bundling and her "anti-forking" policy for iOS and MacOS since according to you, the EU decisions were not about market dominance.

For the Open market to thrive, the EU should not tamper with market forces, like what Great-Fire-Walled-Off China likes to do.

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Re: Google to charge Europe

Post by gm10 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:24 am

michael louwe wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:09 am
For the Open market to thrive, the EU should not tamper with market forces, like what Great-Fire-Walled-Off China likes to do.
Well, modern economic theory doesn't agree with you, leaving the market alone doesn't guarantee an open market because market participants have an interest to prevent that, but a great many books have been written on the subject and this forum is probably not the place to dive into that in detail.

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Re: Google to charge Europe

Post by michael louwe » Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:25 am

gm10 wrote:.
.
When PC's became a mass-market product during the late 1980s, M$ made a good marketing decision to license her Windows OS to the OEMs at affordable prices. Apple did not do so for her MacOSX. M$'s decision catapulted Windows into market dominance until today and benefited computer users and the world economy tremendously, eg businesses and gamers.

When smartphones replaced feature phones as a mass-market product during the mid-2000s, Google also made the good marketing decision to license her Android OS to the OEMs for free but under certain conditions, eg Anti-Forking Agreements. Apple and M$ did not do so for their iOS and Windows Phone OS. Google's decision catapulted Android into market dominance until today and benefited smartphone users tremendously.

Now, the EU has made a foolhardy decision to disrupt market forces and penalize the good marketing decision of Google-Android, resulting in EU-eans having to pay more for Google-Android smartphones or use less appealing non-Google-Android phones or the much more expensive Apple-iOS phones. .
....... Maybe, the EU prefer all smartphones to be walled-off and expensive like Apple's iOS smartphones = all the OEMs or phone vendors go bankrupt.

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Re: Google to charge Europe

Post by gm10 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:31 am

michael louwe wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:25 am
Now, the EU has made a foolhardy decision to disrupt market forces and penalize the good marketing decision of Google-Android, resulting in EU-eans having to pay more for Google-Android smartphones or use less appealing non-Google-Android phones or the much more expensive Apple-iOS phones.
You are wildly misrepresenting the decision but I feel we've been over this. The ruling forces Google to allow phone makers to distribute Android phones without Google app store (and instead a competitor's app store). This opens up the market and allows for more varied offers for EU customers, while the rest of the world is stuck with Google on Google only. As a EU customer I am happy about this development.

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Re: Google to charge Europe

Post by Moem » Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:49 am

michael louwe wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:25 am
EU-eans having to [...] use less appealing non-Google-Android phones
I can't imagine such a phone. For me, anything non-Google is automatically more appealing. And I know I'm not alone in that.
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Re: Google to charge Europe

Post by michael louwe » Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:56 am

Moem wrote: For me, anything non-Google is automatically more appealing. And I know I'm not alone in that.
.
Yes, for a certain minuscule segment of the mass-market, anything non-Google or non-Windows is automatically more appealing.
Last edited by michael louwe on Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Google to charge Europe

Post by michael louwe » Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:24 am

gm10 wrote:As a EU customer I am happy about this development..
.
https://www.businessinsider.my/google-a ... ?r=UK&IR=T - Nightmarish fragmentation and expensive phones: Here’s how Google’s big Android changes could play out - 17 Oct 2018

You are happy paying more money if you buy an Android phone with Google apps.? Maybe you will also be happy if you are forced by the EU to pay money to use Linux.

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Re: Google to charge Europe

Post by gm10 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:30 am

michael louwe wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:24 am
You are happy paying more money if you buy an Android phone with Google apps.? Maybe you will also be happy if you are forced by the EU to pay money to use Linux.
I said above that I haven't had GApps on my phone in years. And yes, I am happy about competition entering the market. If Google ask for too much money for Play Store then phone makers will be more than happy to install another store instead, e.g. - as I also already said above - Amazon's offering. Maybe even their entire FireOS.

So I'll just continue to /yawn at the doom and gloom you're trying to instill and look forward to a more competitive market. Competitive markets are good for consumers.

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Re: Google to charge Europe

Post by michael louwe » Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:50 am

gm10 wrote:So I'll just continue to /yawn at the doom and gloom you're trying to instill and look forward to a more competitive market. Competitive markets are good for consumers..
.
As I already said, for a certain minuscule segment of the mass-market, anything non-Google or non-Windows is automatically more appealing.

Yes, the minuscule or very few %-market of tech geeks tend to yawn as the other average EU-eans or the non-geeky EU masses have to fork out more money to pay for new Google-Android phones. How compassionate of the yawning and undoomed tech geeks.(not.!)

As linked, the result of the EU decision against Google may be Android fragmentation, not better market competition, ala bad Linux fragmentation caused by tech geeks.
....... Seems, some tech geeks want Android to be as fragmented as Linux and maybe for Android to also end up with a minuscule world marketshare as Linux.
Last edited by michael louwe on Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Google to charge Europe

Post by gm10 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:59 am

michael louwe wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:50 am
As linked, the result of the EU decision against Google may be Android fragmentation, not better market competition, ala bad Linux fragmentation caused by tech geeks.
Fragmentation is one possibility, but it's probably the less profitable one compared to the alternative: interoperability.

We've been through all this with Microsoft, who have learned their lesson under the weight of several anti-trust cases and are now the world's biggest open-source contributor with interoperability written all over their mission statement.

Some call us geeks, others call us visionaries. I'm still not fazed. :D

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Re: Google to charge Europe

Post by michael louwe » Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:18 pm

gm10 wrote:We've been through all this with Microsoft, who have learned their lesson under the weight of several anti-trust cases ...
.
That's laughable.

https://www.howtogeek.com/322112/what-i ... f-windows/ - What Is an “N” or “KN” Edition of Windows? - Aug 25, 2017
These editions of Windows exist entirely for legal reasons. In 2004, the European Commission found Microsoft had violated European antitrust law, abusing its monopoly in the market to hurt competing video and audio applications. The EU fined Microsoft €500 million and required Microsoft to offer a version of Windows without Windows Media Player. Consumers and PC manufacturers can choose this version of Windows and install their preferred multimedia applications without Windows Media Player also being present. It’s not the only version of Windows offered in the European Union—it’s just an option that has to be available. This is why the “N” editions are only available in Europe. ...

Should I Buy Them?
Let’s be honest: These editions of Windows have largely been a flop. In theory, they were created to increase choice for consumers and PC manufacturers. ...

RealPlayer creator RealNetworks cheered the EU decision, but RealPlayer didn’t become popular in response.

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Re: Google to charge Europe

Post by Flemur » Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:08 pm

michael louwe wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:18 pm
Consumers and PC manufacturers can choose this version of Windows and install their preferred multimedia applications without Windows Media Player also being present
The Harrison Bergeron school of economics.
RealPlayer creator RealNetworks cheered the EU decision, but RealPlayer didn’t become popular in response.
Fortunately.
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Re: Google to charge Europe

Post by Arch_Enemy » Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:17 pm

Moem wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:49 am
michael louwe wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:25 am
EU-eans having to [...] use less appealing non-Google-Android phones
I can't imagine such a phone. For me, anything non-Google is automatically more appealing. And I know I'm not alone in that.
I absolutely hate Android. And remember, Google is watching and gathering data all the time. I don't know about you guys there, but also the NSA is logging every phone call, etc. Now, I'm not a tin-foil hat person, but I believe we have this pesky little thing over here called "The Fourth Amendment" that seems to have been run over roughshod. But that's on the NSA side. Android phone owners have PAID to have Google collect their data. And my phone keeps wanting to install this and that. I want a phone, email, messaging and once in a while go on the Internet. When I'm working I stream music, because with all the machines we can't get radio unless you're near a window.

But I digress. Uh....anyone have a good flip-phone for sale? I used to love Blackberrys, but now they have gone Android as well.
I have travelled 35629424162.9 miles in my lifetime

One thing I would suggest, create a partition a ~28G partition as /. Partition the rest as /Home.
When the system fails, reinstall and use the exact same username and all your 'stuff' comes back to you.

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