Neither ... nor, without neither.

[rene]

English language query. In my first language the (translation of) "nor" can connect two positives and turn them both negative. "Feeling dead nor alive" would be to say "feeling not dead and not alive". Is that or was that ever the case for English?

I know that modern English prefers "Feeling neither dead nor alive" but is that more than preferred? "Feeling dead nor alive" feels quite natural to me even if a bit old fashioned. Clearly this might however simply be me wrongly transliterating my first language, and especially since I'm unable to find a web-resource that sanctions leaving out "neither".

Although not wanting to sound overly pedantic or demandng, please only if you can in fact somewhat authoritatively answer. I'm as said aware that the web would find my usage wrong for modern English; am wondering if I'm recalling usage from old texts or am simply wrong, period.

[AZgl1800]

old school here, my favorite English Teacher, back in ~middle '50s was very neat....
( Oklahoma boy )
she gave my class a great sense of appreciation for the olde ways, and way the 'new ways' were here nor better

for me, it would e neither dead nor alive as a feeling of self sense....
meaning, that I had been drug thru the trenches and being grimy, ala filthy dirty, no shower for a week, neither dead nor alive pretty much says it right.

[DAMIEN1307]

hi rene...very nice example presented...i can only tell you that myself being an "old Bostonian brahman", i have heard both used...even on my visits to either Ireland or England, i have heard both ways being used there as well...example: "feeling neither, (meaning "not either") dead nor (Elizabethan English for "or") alive" is actually more of a "throw back" in time than the "oft used",(meaning "more often used), "feeling dead nor alive"...the latter mentioned here, as well as by yourself, in your original post, is actually the more modern equivalent thereof...DAMIEN

ps...in boston, either, or neither, is pronounced there, as eyether or nyether...lol

[rene]

Thank you both very much for the answer. I was of course sort of hoping that my natural urges were deemed acceptable, so unless further discouragement comes in, I'll for now go with DAMIEN1307's answer (and hence not edit another recent post here). Not finding any sanctioning of neitherlessness on the web threw me off a bit...

[DAMIEN1307]

hi rene...just to be clear for other readers here, the former ("feeling neither dead nor alive"), meaning, "feeling not either dead or alive" is more correct than the latter saying ("feeling dead nor alive"), meaning, "feeling dead or alive", the first one, though much older is more correct to use than the latter expression as the former conveys a more correct meaning within it's context...DAMIEN

[lsemmens]

Neither and nor must be used together, you cannot have one without the other, as my old English teacher from last century would say. Actually we also called him "the Fossil" because he was that old. Incidentally he also taught us Latin, which, we were convinced that, it was his first language/

[rene]

Okay, neither-abolitionism loosing ground here. Shall check back tomorrow...

[MrEen]

Neither and nor must be used together, you cannot have one without the other, as my old English teacher from last century would say. Actually we also called him "the Fossil" because he was that old. Incidentally he also taught us Latin, which, we were convinced that, it was his first language/

Neither does not need a nor: Neither of us went to work today.

Nor can use a different negative than neither: I never learned how to use conjunctions, nor do I regret it.

[DAMIEN1307]

hi isemmens...took Latin as well at "Boston Latin", note worthy also to mention, Koine Greek, Hebrew, Gaelic, German, Spanish, French, as well as learning a "smattering" of Lithuanian, Polish, Russian, and modern Greek, which is somewhat different than ancient Koine Greek...also was what was called a "Living Museum Historical Interpreter" at the Pilgrim Plantation Reconstruction of Plimoth Massachusetts, during my summer vacations at Plymouth Massachusetts having to be able to speak fluently and also be able to Interpret " Elizabethan" style English of the 1629 style of English used in the "Living Museum" of "Plimoth Plantation" of that time...in college my dual majors were English and History, my dual minors were Psychology and Theology, i also picked up a Batchelors degree in "Telecommunications somewhere along the way...lol...i know at least a little bit of what i speak of...I am keenly aware and realise though, that in this day and age, that this little of what i perceive to know, plus a few dollars, more or less, just might be able to buy me a cup of coffee at either Dunkin Donuts or Starbucks...lol...DAMIEN

omne genu flectetur gloria illuminatus

[DAMIEN1307]

hi MrEen...you said,

Neither does not need a nor: Neither of us went to work today.

i counter you with this one..."did you and/or mike go to work today?"..."neither myself, nor mike went to work today."

[rene]

But the question is, did anyone go to to work after "Mike nor I went to work today."

[smurphos]

Neither does not need a nor: Neither of us went to work today.

Nor does technically require another negative context though which doesn't have to be neither. I don't think any native English speaker would misunderstand rene's original construction though, other than pondering over the philosophical meaning.

Nor you nor I went to work today is valid if archaic.
He never washed, nor combed his hair.
I don't rate her chances to get the job. Nor do I rate her dress sense.
I was not feeling dead nor alive.

[DAMIEN1307]

to rene....hahahahahahah....lol...lol...too funny...wish i thought of that first is all...DAMIEN

ps...very correct smurphos

[smurphos]

But the question is, did anyone go to to work after "Mike nor I went to work today."

That's definitely debatable to native ears.

[DAMIEN1307]

hi smurphos...which native ears?...modern ears, or "elizabethan", and/or "victorian" ears...lol...the "hearing" is after all in the ears of the beholder in a particular time in historical context...lol...DAMIEN

[smurphos]

hi smurphos...which native ears?...modern ears, or "elizabethan", and/or "victorian" ears...lol...the "hearing" is after all in the ears of the beholder in a particular time in historical context...lol...DAMIEN

British english native ears.

[AZgl1800]

Being an Okie from Muskogee, and having only traveled around a few of the western USA states, I neva larned to spika da spanglish nor the anglash languagaes


I do regret today, having avoided the foreign language classes, including Latin...
The only history class I took was on Oklahoma history, thoroughly enjoyed it.

it is obvious from reading this forum, that the Europeans are far more educated in the way of the world than the back woods hill billys I grew up around.

3 door Suburban 4x4 Camaro.jpg

[rene]

That's definitely debatable to native ears.

Okay, good enough. Will try and remember to not skip "neither" then...

[Moem]

hi smurphos...which native ears?...modern ears, or "elizabethan", and/or "victorian" ears...lol...the "hearing" is after all in the ears of the beholder in a particular time in historical context...lol...DAMIEN

British english native ears.

Of which time period?

[GS3]

I once read some obscure writer:

Water, water, every where,
And all the boards did shrink;
Water, water, every where,
Nor any drop to drink.

and it did soundeth strange to mine ears.