Microsoft will ship Linux Kernel in Win 10's WSL

Chat about just about anything else
gm10
Level 18
Level 18
Posts: 8753
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:11 pm

Re: The upcoming version of Windows 10 will feature a real Linux kernel in it as part of Windows Subsystem for Linux (WS

Post by gm10 » Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:51 pm

rene wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:22 pm
upon finding it to be just another piece of the special place in hell reserved for those set on viewing/developing Linux as a drop-in replacement for "the real thing", i.e., Windows.
Operating systems are just tools, not religion. You use the one that best suits your needs. In some aspects Windows is the "real thing" (as in the superior tool), in others it is Linux, and in many they are pretty much the same thing. I am using both.

There is nothing evil about Microsoft integrating good features of other platforms into their own, or with WSL the entire platform core (they have even been thinking about GUI integration down the road, then assimilation will be complete ;)). Integration has always got to be the goal. Codeweavers is taking a different approach towards a similar goal from the Linux side.
Tune up your LM 19.x: ppa:gm10/linuxmint-tools

rene
Level 11
Level 11
Posts: 3722
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2016 6:58 pm

Re: The upcoming version of Windows 10 will feature a real Linux kernel in it as part of Windows Subsystem for Linux (WS

Post by rene » Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:55 pm

gm10 wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:51 pm
Integration has always got to be the goal.
I have no idea why that would be the case.

But feel free to not spell it out for me either ;-)

gm10
Level 18
Level 18
Posts: 8753
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:11 pm

Re: The upcoming version of Windows 10 will feature a real Linux kernel in it as part of Windows Subsystem for Linux (WS

Post by gm10 » Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:02 pm

rene wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:55 pm
gm10 wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:51 pm
Integration has always got to be the goal.
I have no idea why that would be the case.

But feel free to not spell it out for me either ;-)
I have no idea why you would not want that, but from the deeply personal perspective of this single user that is myself I welcome any and all attempts at integration, not just in computing. Separation can make business sense to corner markets, but it's never useful to the user (and user in this context includes using the platform to develop software on it). If I'd need to spell that out any further for you then I believe you'd probably not agree, anyway. for you do not have the same wants for your environment.
Tune up your LM 19.x: ppa:gm10/linuxmint-tools

rene
Level 11
Level 11
Posts: 3722
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2016 6:58 pm

Re: Microsoft will ship Linux Kernel in Win 10's WSL

Post by rene » Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:18 pm

gm10 wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:02 pm
I have no idea why you would not want that [ ... ]
Integration or no reply? If latter, because if would lead to a for a Linux user very predictable paint-by-numbers discussion...

However, now that we're there anyway... if former because "use the right tool for the right job" indeed. I've for example a Windows 7 system up for some legacy gaming by myself and others, and it's most definitely the right tool for that job. Through many years of adjusting personal workflow to Linux, it is the right tool for that job.

And I'm specifically then not fond of people trying to combine such right tools into one shiny new integrated one; rather than being right for both it's after all my experience that very same intention invariably ends up with one right for nothing.

gm10
Level 18
Level 18
Posts: 8753
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:11 pm

Re: Microsoft will ship Linux Kernel in Win 10's WSL

Post by gm10 » Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:36 pm

rene wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:18 pm
Integration or no reply? If latter,
The former. ;)
rene wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:18 pm
And I'm specifically then not fond of people trying to combine such right tools into one shiny new integrated one; rather than being right for both it's after all my experience that very same intention invariably ends up with one right for nothing.
That's a valid concern but does not address the special place in hell argument you made. But to the point, I believe the market (in the widest sense) will take care of integrated tools that are worse than their separate origins. That's no reason to shy away from integration.

Also integration as with WSL does not take away from either part. WSL isn't doing away with Linux, it's integrating it via a thin VM layer into the system itself. WSL1 was basically Wine for Windows, but WSL2 is the real thing. It is immensely convenient, and the underlying technology of how they integrated this shows you where they are headed with this. Personally I love it.
Tune up your LM 19.x: ppa:gm10/linuxmint-tools

rene
Level 11
Level 11
Posts: 3722
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2016 6:58 pm

Re: Microsoft will ship Linux Kernel in Win 10's WSL

Post by rene » Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:52 pm

gm10 wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:36 pm
But to the point, I believe the market (in the widest sense) will take care of integrated tools that are worse than their separate origins.
Given that the piece of said market I myself care for w.r.t mentioned workflow is a hundred times smaller than its complement, I absolutely do not. As we in our times see happening regarding China for example, "the market" implies a race to the bottom, not to greatness.

gm10
Level 18
Level 18
Posts: 8753
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:11 pm

Re: Microsoft will ship Linux Kernel in Win 10's WSL

Post by gm10 » Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:08 pm

rene wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:52 pm
Given that the piece of said market I myself care for w.r.t mentioned workflow is a hundred times smaller than its complement, I absolutely do not. As we in our times see happening regarding China for example, "the market" implies a race to the bottom, not to greatness.
But WSL cannot do away with the Linux you are worried about because it literally is Linux.

Also I'm a big fan of globalization and free markets. Politics will never bring people together and civilization is just a thin veneer over humanity's barbaric core that we see in the news every day. I'm a firm believer that only the global markets will end up bringing people together. Both the markets for goods and for culture.
Tune up your LM 19.x: ppa:gm10/linuxmint-tools

rene
Level 11
Level 11
Posts: 3722
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2016 6:58 pm

Re: Microsoft will ship Linux Kernel in Win 10's WSL

Post by rene » Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:16 pm

I on the other hand quite firmly hold that "the free market" is an expression of humanity's barbaric core.

At which point I would personally say we'd disagree fundamentally enough on anything that could possibly remain to be said in this thread to leave it at that.

gm10
Level 18
Level 18
Posts: 8753
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:11 pm

Re: Microsoft will ship Linux Kernel in Win 10's WSL

Post by gm10 » Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:32 pm

I'd be happy to discuss it actually for I'm quite passionate about that topic but given the context of the thread you are no doubt right to suggest to end it here.
Tune up your LM 19.x: ppa:gm10/linuxmint-tools

User avatar
Pjotr
Level 21
Level 21
Posts: 13248
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:18 am
Location: The Netherlands (Holland)
Contact:

Re: Microsoft will ship Linux Kernel in Win 10's WSL

Post by Pjotr » Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:29 pm

gm10 wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:08 pm
Also I'm a big fan of globalization and free markets. Politics will never bring people together and civilization is just a thin veneer over humanity's barbaric core that we see in the news every day. I'm a firm believer that only the global markets will end up bringing people together. Both the markets for goods and for culture.
I simply can't resist the temptation to bring a third opinion into this discussion.... I fear that counts as "menschliches, allzumenschliches". :lol:

Here goes: my firm opinion is that not globalization, but a healthy nationalism will enable humanity to preserve pockets of civilization that can inspire the world. Well-guarded boundaries for self-assured peoples, unashamedly proud of their superior cultures. Lights on the hilltops in this our dark barbaric world....

The free goods market is another thing. It's probably the best tool for furthering global prosperity; but only insofar as it's a free market on both sides of each international transaction. Otherwise it can be highly disruptive and destructive; an evil that can destroy a society.
Last edited by Pjotr on Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Tip: 10 things to do after installing Linux Mint 19.2 Tina
Keep your Linux Mint healthy: Avoid these 10 fatal mistakes
Twitter: twitter.com/easylinuxtips
All in all, horse sense simply makes sense.

rene
Level 11
Level 11
Posts: 3722
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2016 6:58 pm

Re: Microsoft will ship Linux Kernel in Win 10's WSL

Post by rene » Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:35 pm

And already we're here encountering the next expression of humanity's barbaric core...

ColdBootII
Level 4
Level 4
Posts: 463
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:19 am

Re: Microsoft will ship Linux Kernel in Win 10's WSL

Post by ColdBootII » Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:36 pm

gm10 wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:08 pm

Also I'm a big fan of globalization and free markets. Politics will never bring people together and civilization is just a thin veneer over humanity's barbaric core that we see in the news every day. I'm a firm believer that only the global markets will end up bringing people together. Both the markets for goods and for culture.
If you look back in the hindsight, you'll notice that "globalization" and "free markets" are political ideas. A slightly more civilized form of taking over other people's territory, integrity and resources than open colonial war, but not by much.

Edit: they are the reason the Russians are such "bad guys" these days and why Denmark will be bombed. :mrgreen:

Cheers.
Last edited by ColdBootII on Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
Pjotr
Level 21
Level 21
Posts: 13248
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:18 am
Location: The Netherlands (Holland)
Contact:

Re: Microsoft will ship Linux Kernel in Win 10's WSL

Post by Pjotr » Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:37 pm

rene wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:35 pm
And already we're here encountering the next expression of humanity's barbaric core...
You flatter me, surely. :lol:
Tip: 10 things to do after installing Linux Mint 19.2 Tina
Keep your Linux Mint healthy: Avoid these 10 fatal mistakes
Twitter: twitter.com/easylinuxtips
All in all, horse sense simply makes sense.

Minux1
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 78
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:49 am

Re: Microsoft will ship Linux Kernel in Win 10's WSL

Post by Minux1 » Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:45 pm

I have no doubt that Redmond is not in the least concerned about ¨the free source threat¨ to their IT dictatorship.
Like an annoying fly at the beach they will crush free source with the big hammer ... $MONEY$.
I hear a rumour that MS might be charging for O/S system updates in the future.
This is adding insult to injury for those who have had their networks decimated by the force fed w10 updates.
Their arrogance is going from the ridiculous to the sublime. :mrgreen:

User avatar
Portreve
Level 8
Level 8
Posts: 2008
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:03 am
Location: Florida
Contact:

Re: Microsoft will ship Linux Kernel in Win 10's WSL

Post by Portreve » Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:14 pm

Well, alrighty then, as the door has already been opened, I guess it's time to throw in my 2¢...

Let me just say I'm only responding here to comments about nationalism and globalism, and not matters of technology.

I don't have a problem with globalization per se. We are all, of course, one single species of animal which, at some point, needs to crawl up out of the muck and come to recognize we're better off functioning as one species instead of being divided by nationalities and artificial borders, tribal city-state groups, and philosophies and ideologies started by Bronze Age or older folk with a Bronze Age or older understanding of reality.

[Sorry, that really was one freakishly long sentence. However, that's the preamble to what's yet to come. Buckle up.]

I don't have a problem with globalization as such, but what I do have a serious problem with is the use of arbitrage, which is simply a tool of exploitation. If a government's primary purpose is not the protection and empowerment of its own people, then it exists for the wrong reason as much as it exists to their detriment. Now, you gentlemen above want to say there's barbarism afoot here, and you're right: there is. But more entrenchment of division between groups, reinforcement of the disparity of income, opportunity, safety, and above all the doubling down of the entrenched nationalism we're seeing in America as well as Europe, South America, and elsewhere is making the situation worse, not better.

Why should it make a difference if I was born in Cleveland, Ohio or somewhere in the middle of Nigeria? Or the Steppes of Asia? The argument often heard (though I'm not suggesting anyone here specifically is making it) of pulling oneself up by one's bootstraps — or rather the lack thereof — is a load of bunk when it is applied, as it so often is, as the initial cause of this disparity.

I said above that only education stands between us and the danger of becoming a regressive culture. That being the case, the irony of contemporary American culture essentially standing in opposition to that concept — while patting itself on the back for all the great and impressive things it has accomplished in the past — comforting itself against the reality that how our present international system of both foreign and domestic exploitation simply "is the way it is" is not just beyond comprehension, but beyond calculation.

Forget political parties and religions and even basic enculturation: the real fundamental cause of all the crud and cruft we're seeing going on in the world, especially today, is the result of ignorant people (inadequately educated, maleducated, educationally disenfranchised) easily misled and deceived. What we're seeing now, in 2019, is the result of decades of creeping ignorance, exploited by the powerful.
I'm so down wit' dat', yo, dass ich unter dem Beton bin.

Presently rocking LinuxMint 19.2 Cinnamon.

Remember to mark your fixed problem [SOLVED].

All in all, you're just another brick in the wall.

User avatar
Pjotr
Level 21
Level 21
Posts: 13248
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:18 am
Location: The Netherlands (Holland)
Contact:

Re: Microsoft will ship Linux Kernel in Win 10's WSL

Post by Pjotr » Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:12 am

Portreve wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:14 pm
If a government's primary purpose is not the protection and empowerment of its own people, then it exists for the wrong reason as much as it exists to their detriment.
Well put, sir. I agree entirely.
Tip: 10 things to do after installing Linux Mint 19.2 Tina
Keep your Linux Mint healthy: Avoid these 10 fatal mistakes
Twitter: twitter.com/easylinuxtips
All in all, horse sense simply makes sense.

Minux1
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 78
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:49 am

Re: Microsoft will ship Linux Kernel in Win 10's WSL

Post by Minux1 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:13 pm

W10 can already run Linux as a sideshow.
Considering the W10 update fiasco I think Redmond has already grasped the truth that Linux is the better mousetrap.
They´ll simply absorb Linux like they do everything else and it´ll be the highlight of their 2025 IT lineup.
If yah can beat ´em buy ´em.
Will Linux continue to be free and open source ... not a chance.
Commercial Linux is not a nuance.
Look at the pricetag on Red Hats enterprise networking solutions. :mrgreen:

User avatar
Portreve
Level 8
Level 8
Posts: 2008
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:03 am
Location: Florida
Contact:

Re: Microsoft will ship Linux Kernel in Win 10's WSL

Post by Portreve » Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:58 pm

Minux1 wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:13 pm
W10 can already run Linux as a sideshow.
Considering the W10 update fiasco I think Redmond has already grasped the truth that Linux is the better mousetrap.
They´ll simply absorb Linux like they do everything else and it´ll be the highlight of their 2025 IT lineup.
If yah can beat ´em buy ´em.
Will Linux continue to be free and open source ... not a chance.
Commercial Linux is not a nuance.
Look at the pricetag on Red Hats enterprise networking solutions. :mrgreen:
Uh, right... Thankfully, that's not legally possible, and it's not physically possible, either.
I'm so down wit' dat', yo, dass ich unter dem Beton bin.

Presently rocking LinuxMint 19.2 Cinnamon.

Remember to mark your fixed problem [SOLVED].

All in all, you're just another brick in the wall.

Post Reply

Return to “Open chat”