Gamma Ray Bursts From Black Holes *May* Exceed Speed Of Light

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Portreve
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Gamma Ray Bursts From Black Holes *May* Exceed Speed Of Light

Post by Portreve » Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:32 pm

BigThink.com: Astrophysicists: gamma-ray jets exceed the speed of light

To my mind, this raises some issues, and handles others.

The reason that "nothing can escape a black hole" is that, just like every other object in the universe, a black hole has an escape velocity. Earth's is about 28.163,52 kph (17,500 mph). A black hole's is some (presumably) nominal amount greater than the speed of light. If gamma ray bursts emanating from a black hole are actually coming from the black hole itself, by definition they have to be traveling faster than the speed of light.

This episode of PBS Space Time does a reasonably fair job of explaining speed limitations, at least insofar as we generally understand them, but then that leads me to the next thought I have, which is: if light is limited in speed to the universal speed of propagation (a.k.a. speed of causality) this would lead to the effect of gamma ray bursts "arriving" at a given particular point along their trajectory before they had gotten there, or at least at a time before they had left some earlier point.

Another thought I had was: we're talking about different frequencies along the electromagnetic (EM) spectrum, of which visible light and electricity are also a part. Is there something specifically unique about the gamma part of the spectrum which allows for faster-than-light travel? Also, whether or not that is the case, what kind of mind-bendingly insane amount of force (and/or energy) is required to pull off such a stunt?

Lastly... I've never really been happy with the explanation that photons (of whatever portion of the EM spectrum) are massless. To be a thing is to have mass. Elections traveling as electrical current have a mass. I'll happily grant this is a mass that's absurdly insignificant, but that's technically not the same thing as saying literally no mass.

So, if it's true that "ordinary objects" cannot be pushed to the speed of light because of truly infinite energy requirements, would the same thing apply to photons, et al? Meaning: would there come a point at which photons could not travel any faster because energy requirements would also become infinite? How far past c would that be? 2x? 10x? 1 billion x?

Writing this all out just made me think of one final thing: is there some kind of connection to Hawking Radiation? If the whole thing about quantum entangled particles is true (two entangled particles can be separated and moved vast distances from each other and manipulation of one results in the instantaneous manipulation of the other regardless of distance) then would this enable FTL travel for the gamma particles?

Don't worry, folks. I'm not a physicist, and all the math which undergirds everything here is well outside my comprehension. I'm looking at this on a more philosophical or even theoretical physical level.
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Re: Gamma Ray Bursts From Black Holes *May* Exceed Speed Of Light

Post by all41 » Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:23 pm

I've never really been happy with the explanation that photons (of whatever portion of the EM spectrum) are massless
Plausible based on E=mc2. If m=0 then E=0, but we know that photons have energy.

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Re: Gamma Ray Bursts From Black Holes *May* Exceed Speed Of Light

Post by catweazel » Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:01 pm

Portreve wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:32 pm
If gamma ray bursts emanating from a black hole are actually coming from the black hole itself, by definition they have to be traveling faster than the speed of light.
BZZZZT! No Kewpie doll for you.

Gamma ray bursts do not come "from the black hole itself". They come from matter being sucked by the black hole toward the black hole but then the matter is accelerated so much that it is ejected from the region of the black hole's poles before it has any opportunity to fall into the event horizon, from which nothing escapes.
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Re: Gamma Ray Bursts From Black Holes *May* Exceed Speed Of Light

Post by all41 » Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:28 pm

catweazel wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:01 pm
Portreve wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:32 pm
If gamma ray bursts emanating from a black hole are actually coming from the black hole itself, by definition they have to be traveling faster than the speed of light.
BZZZZT! No Kewpie doll for you.

Gamma ray bursts do not come "from the black hole itself". They come from matter being sucked by the black hole toward the black hole but then the matter is accelerated so much that it is ejected from the region of the black hole's poles before it has any opportunity to fall into the event horizon, from which nothing escapes.
This is only true for aussies though, otherwise normal physics apply :wink:

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Re: Gamma Ray Bursts From Black Holes *May* Exceed Speed Of Light

Post by catweazel » Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:45 pm

all41 wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:28 pm
catweazel wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:01 pm
Portreve wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:32 pm
If gamma ray bursts emanating from a black hole are actually coming from the black hole itself, by definition they have to be traveling faster than the speed of light.
BZZZZT! No Kewpie doll for you.

Gamma ray bursts do not come "from the black hole itself". They come from matter being sucked by the black hole toward the black hole but then the matter is accelerated so much that it is ejected from the region of the black hole's poles before it has any opportunity to fall into the event horizon, from which nothing escapes.
This is only true for aussies though, otherwise normal physics apply :wink:
harhar

Normal physics is quantum mechanics. Anything else is a 16th century old wives' tale.
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Re: Gamma Ray Bursts From Black Holes *May* Exceed Speed Of Light

Post by all41 » Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:48 pm

Oh--string? entanglement?
This thread will evolve

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Re: Gamma Ray Bursts From Black Holes *May* Exceed Speed Of Light

Post by catweazel » Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:56 pm

all41 wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:48 pm
This thread will evolve
It will seek the highest possible entropy; consequently it will be forgotten.
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Re: Gamma Ray Bursts From Black Holes *May* Exceed Speed Of Light

Post by otacon14112 » Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:44 pm

I've always wondered why galaxies and black holes have discs containing the objects that revolve around them. Why are they almost always a thin disc? Why don't objects get pulled toward black holes from under them or above them instead of always in-line with everything else (a spiraling disc)?
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Re: Gamma Ray Bursts From Black Holes *May* Exceed Speed Of Light

Post by BigEasy » Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:15 am

Reading the title I think it is about some new album called "Black Holes" from "Gamma Ray" group that breaks sales record :mrgreen:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKCxZtaZ1BA
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Re: Gamma Ray Bursts From Black Holes *May* Exceed Speed Of Light

Post by rene » Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:22 am

otacon14112 wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:44 pm
I've always wondered why galaxies and black holes have discs containing the objects that revolve around them. Why are they almost always a thin disc? Why don't objects get pulled toward black holes from under them or above them instead of always in-line with everything else (a spiraling disc)?
First "due to conservation of angular momentum". Matter that falls into a black hole tends to have angular momentum, orbit(ed) the black hole. This means that gravity "flings it around" a circle, i.e, within a plane, around the black hole. This seems to make intuitive sense also in a boring terrestrial-physics sort of way. But second due to what I feel is certainly intuitive; a black hole itself generally spinning and, therefore, forcing orbiting matter into a spiral in its equatorial plane. This is no other for for example planetary planes.

The following link is somewhat too physical for me personally, but seems good: https://astronomy.stackexchange.com/que ... -spherical

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Re: Gamma Ray Bursts From Black Holes *May* Exceed Speed Of Light

Post by otacon14112 » Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:30 am

rene wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:22 am
otacon14112 wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:44 pm
I've always wondered why galaxies and black holes have discs containing the objects that revolve around them. Why are they almost always a thin disc? Why don't objects get pulled toward black holes from under them or above them instead of always in-line with everything else (a spiraling disc)?
First "due to conservation of angular momentum". Matter that falls into a black hole tends to have angular momentum, orbit(ed) the black hole. This means that gravity "flings it around" a circle, i.e, within a plane, around the black hole. This seems to make intuitive sense also in a boring terrestrial-physics sort of way. But second due to what I feel is certainly intuitive; a black hole itself generally spinning and, therefore, forcing orbiting matter into a spiral in its equatorial plane. This is no other for for example planetary planes.

The following link is somewhat too physical for me personally, but seems good: https://astronomy.stackexchange.com/que ... -spherical
Nice, thanks! That's a little over my head, but I'll still read it lol.
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Re: Gamma Ray Bursts From Black Holes *May* Exceed Speed Of Light

Post by rene » Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:40 am

otacon14112 wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:30 am
That's a little over my head, but I'll still read it lol.
Another link that, I believe, says the same thing but in some more words: http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/about- ... termediate

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Re: Gamma Ray Bursts From Black Holes *May* Exceed Speed Of Light

Post by farkas » Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:17 am

Exceeding the speed of light according to current theories is not possible. Travelling FTL is the stuff of SciFi.
FTL travel maybe possible? Maybe! :D
Came across this article.
https://www.universetoday.com/143422/ju ... arp-drive/
There is a reference in the article how this might be done, many orders magnitude above my head!
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi ... 015936.pdf :?
If a "warp bubble" can be created, could it be ridden like a surfboard? When riding a surfboard if you are riding with the wave you travel at the waves speed. When riding across the face of the wave using the energy of the wave surfers exceed the speed of the wave. Maybe its possible to surf gravitational waves? :idea:
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Re: Gamma Ray Bursts From Black Holes *May* Exceed Speed Of Light

Post by RollyShed » Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:21 am

While you are reading how about -
The Quantum Universe: Everything That Can Happen Does Happen by Brian Cox & Jeff Forshaw pub 2011, a year or so before the Higgs boson was identified in the Large Hadron Collider.
My copy is about to go back to the public library, leaving me with Neutrino by Frank Close pub 2010.
It makes a change from reading about relativity....

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Re: Gamma Ray Bursts From Black Holes *May* Exceed Speed Of Light

Post by catweazel » Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:13 am

farkas wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:17 am
Exceeding the speed of light according to current theories is not possible. Travelling FTL is the stuff of SciFi.
Nonsense. There is no such limit in different inertial frames.

Take a laser and wait in your back garden for a full moon. Flick the laser across the surface of the moon. Congratulations, your laser just moved faster than light.

Sheesh. Promulgate old wives' tales, why don't you.
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Re: Gamma Ray Bursts From Black Holes *May* Exceed Speed Of Light

Post by catweazel » Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:16 am

RollyShed wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:21 am
The Quantum Universe: Everything That Can Happen Does Happen by Brian Cox & Jeff Forshaw pub 2011...
Us physicists don't cook turkeys at Christmas for that very reason. There is a non-zero probability that the neighbour's fully cooked turkey will quantum tunnel out of her oven and manifest itself on my table.
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Re: Gamma Ray Bursts From Black Holes *May* Exceed Speed Of Light

Post by farkas » Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:56 am

When I push a yardstick at one end the other end moves the same distance at the same time. That is information moving from one end to the other end of the yardstick.
When I used to use a slide rule (analog computer) for computation the result was instantaneous, the time lag between input and output was my time interpreting the results. Do these violate the law that nothing can exceed the speed of light, not even information, can exceed the speed of light?
Last edited by farkas on Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:14 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Gamma Ray Bursts From Black Holes *May* Exceed Speed Of Light

Post by catweazel » Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:03 am

farkas wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:56 am
Do these violate that even information can't exceed the speed of light?
https://www.amazon.com/Quantum-Physics- ... B00JU73YUC

Please explain quantum entanglement and what Einstein called 'spooky action at a distance'.

Or are you stuck in a 16th century clockwork Newtonian universe?
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Re: Gamma Ray Bursts From Black Holes *May* Exceed Speed Of Light

Post by farkas » Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:22 am

catwezel wrote
Please explain quantum entanglement and what Einstein called 'spooky action at a distance'.

Or are you stuck in a 16th century clockwork Newtonian universe?
No, I can't explain "quantum entanglement and spooky action at a distance", way above my pay grade! I'm just an old fart trying to exercise my mind by asking questions and maybe get some answers that I can figure out how and why .......?
As for being stuck in "16th century clockwork Newtonian universe" NASA is still using Newtonian mechanics for orbital calculations.
A quick search result.


Do Newton's Laws apply in space?
5 Answers
Alan Feldman
Alan Feldman, Ph.D. Physics, University of Maryland, College Park (1991)
Updated May 12, 2019 · Author has 2.7k answers and 290k answer views

Newton’s laws break down with relativistic speeds and very strong gravitational fields, and in the microscopic (quantum) realm.

However, if you rewrite the third law as conservation of momentum, it still holds in all cases.

Also, conservation of energy should still hold in all realms.

Ehrenfest’s theorem in quantum mechanics is equivalent to F = ma. In this context it is better to use the form F = dp/dt = - grad V.

This holds, but only for the expectation values of the observables (F, p, and V).

Someone below joked about the importance of Newton’s laws. I’m not sure what he or she meant, but they are very important. NASA uses them for trajectories of space probes, ships, and satellites, planets, asteroids, comets, meteoroids and the like. Also, they (well, all their consequences, meaning Newtonian mechanics) introduce the very important concepts of force, mass, acceleration, energy, momentum, angular momentum, velocity, the inertia tensor, and probably more. It would be much harder to learn QM before Newtonian mechanics (or classical mechanics, which means Newton’s laws and relativity). And you’d have a hard time understanding those concepts if you started your physics lessons with relativity. You don’t use relativity or quantum mechanics to build bridges, manufacture balls, design and fly airplanes, drive, and most other stuff.
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Re: Gamma Ray Bursts From Black Holes *May* Exceed Speed Of Light

Post by catweazel » Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:58 am

farkas wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:22 am
I'm just an old fart trying to exercise my mind by asking questions and maybe get some answers that I can figure out how and why .......?
Well, I'm 86, young man. The reason I asked what I did is because you seem to be confusing theory with fact and interpretation with theory, as do some others above. For example, we know only this much about what a black hole looks like:

Image

We don't know if they spin, contrary to statements by others above.

It is not a fact that the maximum speed of anything is c - there are galaxies receding away from us at speeds in excess of c - and in the laser experiment, the end of the beam moves over the surface of the moon at FTL. It is not a fact that information cannot travel faster than light; it is theory. Theory must acquiesce to fact, and when it does so it becomes a law. There are a number of different interpretations of qm but they all agree that information does not travel FTL. However they are interpretations, and interpretations are lesser than both theories and facts, being just slightly above mere opinion, which requires absolutely no facts whatsoever, not even evidence.

There are fundamental differences between opinion, interpretation, theory, fact and law, and one needs to keep this in mind when discussing physics within earshot of a retired physicist :)
"There is, ultimately, only one truth -- cogito, ergo sum -- everything else is an assumption." - Me, my swansong.

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