U.S. Navy Patents Compact Fusion Reactor

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U.S. Navy Patents Compact Fusion Reactor

Post by lsemmens » Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:13 pm

[/url=https://www.forbes.com/sites/arielcohen ... 498f401070[/url] If this works as intended, it could be the breakthrough that the world needs.
- Obviously, early days yet.
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Re: U.S. Navy Patents Compact Fusion Reactor

Post by Portreve » Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:29 am

What I'm scratching my head over is how you get more energy out than what you put in. Doesn't that violate conservation of energy or some other fundamental scientific principle?

Mind you, I'm all for fusion energy. In fact, something like what the Navy is proposing, but just massively scaled down, might be a good alternative for the current concept of powering an electric vehicle with batteries.

Imagine every city having their own gigawatt fusion facility. We would have — notwithstanding power lines themselves — a near bulletproof power grid, likely eliminating the need for such things as rolling blackouts.
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Re: U.S. Navy Patents Compact Fusion Reactor

Post by DAMIEN1307 » Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:58 am

Hi Portreve, im sorry to have to do this but could not read your posts any more unless i was able to disable that very distracting, moving icon image that you are using, so i disabled and banned "imgur.com" scenario that you are using to project that moving image i find most distracting. It actually distracts and takes away from anything that you are writing about...most sorry...DAMIEN

PS...i find that what you write about is much more interesting than that "moving icon image" that you use...I could not even focus on the topic of discussion because the moving icon was so distracting. Yours is the MOST distracting i have ever seen.
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Re: U.S. Navy Patents Compact Fusion Reactor

Post by catweazel » Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:03 am

Portreve wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:29 am
What I'm scratching my head over is how you get more energy out than what you put in. Doesn't that violate conservation of energy or some other fundamental scientific principle?
No, because E=mc2. You put matter in and energy comes out.
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Re: U.S. Navy Patents Compact Fusion Reactor

Post by lsemmens » Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:11 am

DAMIEN1307 wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:58 am
Hi Portreve, im sorry to have to do this but could not read your posts any more unless i was able to disable that very distracting, moving icon image t
I, too, find the moving image distracting. It does not affect me, but, a person who suffers from epilepsy, may. Anyway, I would hope that we get back to the topic of "free" energy. :D
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Re: U.S. Navy Patents Compact Fusion Reactor

Post by DAMIEN1307 » Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:14 am

Free Energy???...Is THAT what the topic was???

Does that tell you how much i didnt get out of this due to that moving icon...!!!...Im not epileptic...im just old...DAMIEN
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Re: U.S. Navy Patents Compact Fusion Reactor

Post by Pjotr » Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:41 am

Sounds promising. It makes sense to put tax money into green nuclear technology research (Thorium-fueled nuclear plants are also highly promising; we already have a tiny test reactor in The Netherlands). Much more sense than the current massive waste of tax money on "wobbly electricity" from wind mills and solar cells (and on environment killer biomass fuel, God forbid).

About the moving avatars: what moving avatars? I always block those pests as a matter of course. :mrgreen:
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Re: U.S. Navy Patents Compact Fusion Reactor

Post by Moem » Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:50 am

Pjotr wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:41 am
About the moving avatars: what moving avatars? I always block those pests as a matter of course. :mrgreen:
How? I've been trying to block this one in UBlock Origin but it keeps coming back, and I don't want to block all of Imgur.
Image

If your issue is solved, kindly indicate that by editing the first post in the topic, and adding [SOLVED] to the title. Thanks!

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Re: U.S. Navy Patents Compact Fusion Reactor

Post by Pjotr » Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:56 am

Moem wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:50 am
Pjotr wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:41 am
About the moving avatars: what moving avatars? I always block those pests as a matter of course. :mrgreen:
How? I've been trying to block this one in UBlock Origin but it keeps coming back, and I don't want to block all of Imgur.
I also use UBlock Origin. These are my filters:

Code: Select all

! 5-5-2019 https://forums.linuxmint.com
||media2.giphy.com/media/*.gif$image

! 7-5-2019 https://forums.linuxmint.com
||i.postimg.cc/*.gif$image

! 17-6-2019 https://forums.linuxmint.com
||i.imgur.com/*.gif$image
In the UBlock Origin Dashboard, you should be able to copy/paste those lines into "My filters". :)
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Re: U.S. Navy Patents Compact Fusion Reactor

Post by Moem » Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:12 am

Pjotr wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:56 am
These are my filters:
Thanks!
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If your issue is solved, kindly indicate that by editing the first post in the topic, and adding [SOLVED] to the title. Thanks!

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Re: U.S. Navy Patents Compact Fusion Reactor

Post by DAMIEN1307 » Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:42 am

If i block all of "imgur.com", whats the lose???

i wont have to watch the only one that ever distracted and annoyed me so much...notice to "imugur,com", this is what happens when one is annoyed beyond distraction...this also goes out to ALL of the advertising agents that we have a gullett full of at this point...this is why we use add blockers as well...you have all pushed too much and too far...backlash was inevitable...DAMIEN
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Re: U.S. Navy Patents Compact Fusion Reactor

Post by Portreve » Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:49 pm

catweazel wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:03 am
No, because E=mc2. You put matter in and energy comes out.
That doesn't really answer my question. I get that putting something into a system can get you energy out of that system. I'm just talking about being able to get way more energy out than what you put in. Perhaps it's how the article describes it, but it just sounds strange.
DAMIEN1307 wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:58 am
Hi Portreve, im sorry to have to do this but could not read your posts any more unless i was able to disable that very distracting, moving icon image that you are using, so i disabled and banned "imgur.com" scenario that you are using to project that moving image i find most distracting.
I created that avatar for Halloween. I intended it to have some shock value and a bit of "creepy" value. Looks like I got more than I bargained for! :shock:

Sorry about the distraction part. Anyhow, I've changed avatars, so you're free to come back out of hiding now. :lol:
Pjotr wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:41 am
Sounds promising. It makes sense to put tax money into green nuclear technology research (Thorium-fueled nuclear plants are also highly promising; we already have a tiny test reactor in The Netherlands). Much more sense than the current massive waste of tax money on "wobbly electricity" from wind mills and solar cells (and on environment killer biomass fuel, God forbid).
I just had to look up Thorium because I didn't know anything about its level of radioactivity. Actually, I'm with you on this, though I don't have any particular objections to wind mills or solar panels, provided they are not pushed as primary power sources simply because they have too many constraints on their effectiveness.

P.S.: Anyone want to take a stab at what my new avatar is, and what its relevance might be? :wink:
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Re: U.S. Navy Patents Compact Fusion Reactor

Post by mediclaser » Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:57 pm

Portreve wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:49 pm
...
That doesn't really answer my question. I get that putting something into a system can get you energy out of that system. I'm just talking about being able to get way more energy out than what you put in. Perhaps it's how the article describes it, but it just sounds strange.
It's nuclear chain reaction. You get huge amount of energy from a very tiny amount of "fuel" that gets recycled during the process.
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Re: U.S. Navy Patents Compact Fusion Reactor

Post by cliffcoggin » Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:22 pm

Portreve wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:49 pm
catweazel wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:03 am
No, because E=mc2. You put matter in and energy comes out.
That doesn't really answer my question. I get that putting something into a system can get you energy out of that system. I'm just talking about being able to get way more energy out than what you put in. Perhaps it's how the article describes it, but it just sounds strange.
That's exactly what Cat was hinting at. Einstein's equation shows that energy and matter can be converted from one to the other, thus negating the old laws of conservation of energy and conservation of matter, (though they still hold true for non-nuclear reactions.) In other words one can get more energy out of a system than one puts in by sacrificing matter.

Now whether that has anything to do with the article you linked to I could not say because I am not prepared to agree to Forbes terms for reading their site.
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Re: U.S. Navy Patents Compact Fusion Reactor

Post by Portreve » Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:21 pm

When it comes to credible, legitimately knowledgeable reporting, the first name that comes to mind is Jules Bergman. He was a science reporter and also science editor for ABC News from the 1960s through the 1980s. As much as any reporter was "imbedded" with the military in Vietnam, he was "imbedded" with astronauts and NASA engineers and others, and had absorbed so much specific knowledge to go along with whatever education he had that he could extemporaneously discuss basically any aspect of NASA or any space flight mission, mission objective, etc.

I guess what I'm really driving at is this Forbes article kind of left some things out which would have easily clarified those (relatively few) questions I still have.

For example, if they have managed to concoct a design which allows them to produce those necessary parts of the environment under which fusion can occur, then that means there's some portion of the process where heat of 15 million degrees will be present. What kind of material (I'm thinking the equipment, not the fuel) can survive temperatures like that? Did they find a way to replicate the conditions but without that sort of temperature? If that's the case, why doesn't the article talk about that?

Fusion is a kind of nuclear reaction. It allows for more energy output than energy input because of [details]. Wouldn't it make sense to bring the audience along just a bit and explain that? It's not like we need crazy physics equations, but just explain it on a philosophical level so that the readership can go "Oh, ok. These sorts of things work in thus-and-so way."
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Re: U.S. Navy Patents Compact Fusion Reactor

Post by Portreve » Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:41 pm

catweazel wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:03 am
No, because E=mc2. You put matter in and energy comes out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vr8tOa_En7A
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Re: U.S. Navy Patents Compact Fusion Reactor

Post by Pjotr » Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:48 pm

Nuclear energy is the natural successor for fossil fuel. Not the traditional nuclear energy, mainly because of its highly radioactive waste that stays dangerous for far too long. And you can use it for making atomic weapons, which is also very undesirable.

But green nuclear energy is another thing: it creates waste that is much less radioactive and, no less importantly, stays dangerous for far shorter periods. And you can't use it to produce nuclear weapons.

There are several promising candidates for green nuclear energy. Thorium nuclear plants will probably be fit for mass deployment within three to five decades. Which means it could be the medium term solution. On the longer term (a century), nuclear fusion could become widely applicable.

We can only hope the world will stop pumping astronomically high sums of money in dead ends like the wobbly solar and wind energy, and in the environmentally destructive biomass fuel. These realistic green nuclear alternatives would require much less investment in research and development, and are much more promising as stable and clean energy sources.

For the short term there's plenty of natural gas available worldwide, which is the cleanest of all fossil fuels and could help to bridge the time until the first thorium reactors can be hooked up to the grid.

But hey, that's probably too much common sense to swallow for too many ideology addicts. :(
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Re: U.S. Navy Patents Compact Fusion Reactor

Post by Portreve » Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:44 pm

Pjotr wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:48 pm
But green nuclear energy is another thing: it creates waste that is much less radioactive and, no less importantly, stays dangerous for far shorter periods. And you can't use it to produce nuclear weapons. [Emphasis added.]
The low-hanging fruit for initial nuclear research and development turned out to be uranium and plutonium clearly because of suitability for the latter use. I mean, I get the rationale behind the Manhattan Project and I'm not going to try and judge those people under current circumstances which, truth be told, bear little resemblance to the conditions of the time.

Nevertheless, one simply does not hear anything about Thorium in the U.S. I do not propose to speak for any other nation since I have only lived here and can't claim expertise for anywhere else, but I kind of feel as though my country's population has not been presented with all options and therefore cannot be expected to make a fully-informed decision. Prior to this thread, I know I certainly couldn't have.
There are several promising candidates for green nuclear energy. Thorium nuclear plants will probably be fit for mass deployment within three to five decades. Which means it could be the medium term solution. On the longer term (a century), nuclear fusion could become widely applicable.
The only way I see that as happening is if there were a groundswell of support for it, and mass public educatio; otherwise, we risk losing mindshare. That's a type of damage that is not easily undone under the best of circumstances; under typical circumstances it is not possible at all.
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Re: U.S. Navy Patents Compact Fusion Reactor

Post by catweazel » Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:04 am

cliffcoggin wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:22 pm
Einstein's equation shows that energy and matter can be converted from one to the other...
Technically that's not quite correct; it's a folk-science description, propagated by the popular press. Einstein's equation shows that energy and matter are the same thing.

Einstein didn't refer, for no good reason, to matter as frozen light and light as matter that was moving. And at the end of the day, everything 'out there' is all just interacting electromagnetic fields of one kind or another.
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Re: U.S. Navy Patents Compact Fusion Reactor

Post by catweazel » Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:51 am

Portreve wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:49 pm
catweazel wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:03 am
No, because E=mc2. You put matter in and energy comes out.
That doesn't really answer my question.
Of course it answers your question, you just don't know it. Ask any physicist.

Take the speed of light and square it, then multiply 1 gram of mass by that value --> 300,000 km/s ^ 2 = 1 * 90,000,000,000 Joules of energy. To put that into perspective, you could probably power the whole of New York city for a full year, 24x7 on that much energy.

Now, at a very simplified level, fuse two hydrogen atoms together (Ma and Mb, where M is mass) to break the nuclear force bond and out pops a larger helium atom that is smaller than the sum of Ma and Mb. Note that it is just a shade smaller. The difference, delta M, is released as energy.

To put it another way, and don't take your beady eye off that shade smaller difference, the mass M of an atom can be roughly calculated by adding the masses of its parts but the measured value of mass is always a shade less than the calculated sum of the parts. The missing 'stuff' is taken up by the nuclear bonds. In order to break the nuclear bond, you must provide the equivalent energy that is tied up in the bonds. So, to cut a short story long, if 1 gram of mass = roughly 90,000,000,000 Joules of work, with say a few % missing, by pumping in that few % of energy, a large part of the roughly 90,000,000,000 Joules becomes releasable. So, by adding a little energy, you get far more energy out, as heat, but the cost is mass.

Just in case you missed it, the mass M of an atom is always less than the sum of its parts, the missing difference is in the energy of nuclear bonds. If you provide sufficient energy to at least match what is missing, the bonds break and release heat. So, put in a little, get out a lot. As cliffcoggin stated, you sacrifice the matter.

That's a 24,000km high view but it's fundamentally how it works. I certainly wouldn't describe it this way to a physicist.

The problem for nuclear fusion today is that we don't yet fully understand the dynamics of an actively contained plasma. Electromagnetic eddies and fissures open up in the plasma, causing the reaction to halt. If we can control those eddies and fissures and prevent them from occurring then we may have fusion licked. I think it's maybe 50 years off. At least.
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