Star Trek: Picard... who here is planning on watching it?

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Re: Star Trek: Picard... who here is planning on watching it?

Post by Minux1 »

Low budget special effects and scenes.
Reminds me a lot of the original series of the late 60s in that regard.
Good solid story line & well acted.
Hope there is a season 2.

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Re: Star Trek: Picard... who here is planning on watching it?

Post by lsemmens »

Not so sure about the killing/reboot of Picard in the latest episode, it's almost becoming Cliche.
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Re: Star Trek: Picard... who here is planning on watching it?

Post by trytip »

after watching Picard 10 episodes i guess i can settle for the fact that this Star Trek The Generation After Next is in an alternate Earth where things didn't evolve as they did in the same reality where Beverly Crusher was thrown off the plank by Data.
i get it, these new shows have to be bang for the buck and acquire new audiences. they could've done so much better with Seven of Nine i was pissed when i could notice that her ocular implant is just a prop and not well painted
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Re: Star Trek: Picard... who here is planning on watching it?

Post by Portreve »

I decided to save any further posting in this thread, or responding to any posts, until I'd seen the last episode. Having just done that, I do have some thoughts to share. My last post in this thread was basically a book, and I don't think anyone wants me to repeat that feat, so...

Minux1 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:13 pm
Low budget special effects and scenes.
Reminds me a lot of the original series of the late 60s in that regard.
Good solid story line & well acted.
Hope there is a season 2.
I saw this after you'd posted it on Thursday, and even including the last episode, I don't know that I see what you mean. Effects-wise, this runs circles around just about all of Classic Star Trek, including TOS.

lsemmens wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:54 am
Not so sure about the killing/reboot of Picard in the latest episode, it's almost becoming Cliche.
I agree. Actually, I had originally speculated (just to myself, not publicly) whether or not Q would be involved at some point to serve this same function. That said, I agree with you. Ever since they pulled this same kind of stunt with Spock (which at the time was original, and well done, and poignant) it's become de rigueur for Star Trek, but also for so many other science fiction as well as fantasy shows.

trytip wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:07 am
after watching Picard 10 episodes i guess i can settle for the fact that this Star Trek The Generation After Next is in an alternate Earth where things didn't evolve as they did in the same reality where Beverly Crusher was thrown off the plank by Data.
i get it, these new shows have to be bang for the buck and acquire new audiences. they could've done so much better with Seven of Nine i was pissed when i could notice that her ocular implant is just a prop and not well painted
I would have greatly preferred that there be a scar around her left eye where the implant once was. That, to me, would have been much more effective.


I think, overall, that this show so far has done a good job of showing where characters have found themselves in the intervening 20-odd years, but I do wish they didn't have to go around ripping off every other damn franchise to do it. Seriously. They ripped off Marvel's Avengers with the tower-and-portal to bring an enemy into play. They ripped off Lord of the Rings, for goodness' sake with, as the actor himself put it, "Space Legolas". They ripped off Star Wars with the whole planetary battle sequence, which then went on to not even be worth it. O really should have decided to go through with it, and then we could see Riker's fleet wipe the floors with the Romulans. That alone would have made for interesting story-telling because what do you do about the overall Romulan population which is still living within Federation space when their civilization perpetrated such an offense? What do you say to those folks when you have just obliterated their fleet? That might have made for a good bit of tension and further story development.

Oh, and Gollum? Seriously? They should have made it more expressly "golem" which would be a more apt description of the body Soong, Jr., was working on.

I guess we can be grateful they at least didn't rip off Dr. Who (which is busy destroying itself, anyhow) or Babylon 5.
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Re: Star Trek: Picard... who here is planning on watching it?

Post by Minux1 »

Thankfully "Picard" didn't go overboard on the "inclusive/diversity" virtue signalling as is abundantly evident in other Star Trek based reincarnations.

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Re: Star Trek: Picard... who here is planning on watching it?

Post by murray »

Portreve wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:45 pm
Minux1 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:13 pm
Low budget special effects and scenes.
Reminds me a lot of the original series of the late 60s in that regard.
I saw this after you'd posted it on Thursday, and even including the last episode, I don't know that I see what you mean. Effects-wise, this runs circles around just about all of Classic Star Trek, including TOS.
Thank you! When I read Minux1's comment about low budget special effects I thought to myself that we must be watching different shows; I thought the effects were just as good as any other sci-fi show I've ever seen. How could they be compared to models on strings and hokey sets that look as if they'd fall over in a puff of wind?!?
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Re: Star Trek: Picard... who here is planning on watching it?

Post by lsemmens »

Minux1 wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:37 pm
Thankfully "Picard" didn't go overboard on the "inclusive/diversity" virtue signalling as is abundantly evident in other Star Trek based reincarnations.
Actually TOS was a leader in that field. A black woman as one of the main characters along with various other nationalities as part of the crew in a time when the cold war was still very cold and people were less tolerant of other races and women were only just being allowed out of the kitchen.....

Then came Voyager with a woman Captain...
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Re: Star Trek: Picard... who here is planning on watching it?

Post by trytip »

lsemmens wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:58 pm
Then came Voyager with a woman Captain...
Captain Janeway was perfect in Endgame just as Captain jean Luc Picard in All Good Things
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Re: Star Trek: Picard... who here is planning on watching it?

Post by Portreve »

SPOILER WARNING:

THE FOLLOWING POST CONTAINS SPOILERS FOR STAR TREK: PICARD. STOP READING HERE IF YOU HAVE NOT YET WATCHED THE SHOW AND DO NOT WISH TO HAVE ANY OF IT SPOILED.

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Having watched the entire first season of Star Trek: Picard, I have to say that while I think it was a nice try and a good effort, it was disappointing, and if they expect me to watch it again for the second season (whenever that might happen, given the present situation vis a vis COVID-19), they're gonna have to do a helluva lot better.

I liked the fact that, as with Enterprise (and, I guess, Discovery as well) they do not portray various different species in the classic "monolithic" style. That is, all Klingons, all Vulcans, all Humans, all Andorians, all people from Moem's planet¹ etc., walk and talk and dress and think and act the same. It's pretty obvious there are different agendas within each. It's also obvious the intent was to broadly suggest, and show where possible, that this is a much more layered universe than has previously been shown.

I also liked the fact that they showed people behaving much more realistically, and speaking much more authentically, than has probably ever happened in Star Trek before. Obviously this is a function of not running the show on broadcast TV networks, but it was a nice touch (in my opinion; I know others out there have objected).

I also also liked² the fact that we're shown people moving on with their lives, and that things have happened, and that there's generally been no attempt to, as Joe Straczynski of Babylon 5, Sense8, and Thor-origin-story-movie fame put it, "push the reset button at the end of the episode." Of course, this leads to a point I will get to later, wherein a very massive reset button does eventually get pushed. But, nevermind that for the moment.

I know others have lamented — as some have done in this very discussion thread — the attempt to involve contemporary socio-political issues in the makeup of the show, and weave them into the very fiber of the plot. However, Star Trek has made many efforts over the decades to address contemporary issues, among them racial tension issues, religious tolerance issues, sexual orientation issues, militancy, drug addiction, and so on. What's being done here is honestly nothing new. What is new, however, is the degree of tribalism and polarization we see today, which amongst other things includes the rise of straight-up nationalism and populism in so many different countries. That means, in my view, that to a far greater extent than would have been the case in prior eras, the degree to which the show is able to reach an individual and "speak to them" pretty well hinges on where in the political spectrum they identify.

That all said, here's some of the things I particularly did not like about the show.

Picard left Starfleet when it became an organization with (or reflective of, depending on how you want to look at it) values he found abhorrent and irreconcilable with what had come before. Having left the military, he no longer had any position of authority or power. I suppose in principle he could have chosen some other form of public service, perhaps a career in late 24th century politics, but he didn't. And if things were then roughly parallel to how they are now, what sense would it make to go that route? If the general population of the Federation held those views, he would hardly win an election by opposing them. It doesn't mean nobody at all would vote for him, but clearly the scales would be tipped against him. Besides, he'd already been in service for several decades by that point. It's not so much that Picard is no Washington: it's more that Picard's time was not the same thing as Washington's time had been.

(Reader's Digest version of history for those who need a refresher: Washington served in the British Continental Army previously, having risen through the ranks to become a Colonel. He volunteered to come back into it and lead the Continental Army against the British. Subsequently, he was strongly encouraged to run for President, and to this day is the only person in U.S. history to win a unanimous vote to that office.)

So, Picard decides maybe he should have heeded his brother Robert's advice, and decides to go back to the family vineyard. While this is not entirely dissimilar to Washington's life after public service, Picard decided to drop out of doing anything else beyond writing books. Nevertheless, that's not really a relevant distinction here. Picard felt he'd had enough. Now we see him, lo these many years later, mentally at the point of saying that he's here counting down the time until he dies. He's run away from everything and feels ashamed.

Why the $@&k is he beating himself up over this? He knows darned well what he'd have been doing had he stayed in Starfleet: nothing, other than helping to support policies he (quite rightly) found immoral. He chose not to be a tool in the machine, yet somehow this is morally and/or ethically bad? Really? Why the heck is that? Even Obiwan Kenobi walked away from everything and did not become involved again in events because he planned to be.

There was too much of a Star Wars "big universe" style to the storytelling. Everyone just jumps huge distances in the space of a commercial break (so to speak) and then, in the penultimate battle at the end, that was like straight-up Star Wars style right there. Nothing against Star Wars, but it's almost like it was payback for them trying to Star Trek-ify the first Star Wars movie (you all remember the scene: Rey's on the Falcon with Han and Chewie and suddenly she turns into a female Wesley Crusher fixing the Enterprise.) I mean, I get that payback's a *****, but geez... can we be grown-ups about this, please?

Oh, and speaking of the final battle, this was way too quick and way too pat and just wasn't satisfying to me. If you're going to go through the pretense of having an expansive, realistic universe with depth and layers to it, then don't cheat the story. It was like it was written by someone doing average fan fiction. They started out big, but then got through the story too quickly and wrapped it up too soon. In that sense, it really felt kind of... amateurish. And honestly, that's something ST:TNG rarely, if ever, felt like. Even crap stories didn't feel like they were plotted by amateur fans. Sheesh.

I mentioned it previously, but it's worth repeating here: killing off a major character and then bringing them back to life has become a trope, and a really cheesy one. In a sense, they probably shouldn't have done it with Spock, either, but at least they got the feel right. After that, it's just been used as nothing but a giant undo button, and it just cheapens everything.

And, they ripped off Lord of the Rings. I mean, c'mon, LotR? Trek's gonna rip off LotR? Tolkien is probably turning over in his grave.

Why wasn't Data CGI'd in? We've already seen it done fairly plausibly in Star Wars. They've still got the original actor for Data kicking around, and while he's older now and may not be able to do everything exactly like he used to back in the 1980s and early 90s, motion control performance is a thing. It could have been used here and it should have been used here. Besides, it would have made a better contrast when then having Brent playing Soong's son. And actually, why in the hell did they do that? Soong's own father (or grandfather) was played by Brent. Soong himself was played by Brent. I get "family resemblances" and all that, but their being played by the same actor causes them to be too similar. Besides, they should have picked an actor for that role who contrasts with Brent's essential nature. That would have worked a lot better for me.

There were a number of other parallels / rip-offs in this show, too, the most obvious and low-hanging-fruit of them being NuBSG and Bladerunner. I "get" that simply by virtue of Data's and Lore's existences in ST:TNG to begin with, there's inherently an element of synth life now in the Star Trek universe. But this really was too close for me to not feel like a sort-of rip-off.

Oh, and I'll tell you another thing about rip-offs: the whole thing about freeing the Romulan dude from his cell and killing the guard was a direct, 100% lift from the Wonder Woman 2009 animated movie. I mean, they didn't even try to disguise it. Personally, if I were whomever owns that property, I'd sue whomever owns Picard over infringement.

And, they changed transporter effects again. Why? I mean, at least they don't look like the transporters in the JJverse, thank merciful Space Legolas Jesus Legolas Jesus (I'm so confused, and so is my keyboard at this point) but it's one thing for the technology that does the thing to change. It's quite another for physics itself to suddenly change.

And the whole Borg angle, the whole ex-B thing. Such a massive setup, and potentially a major new element of daily life in the Federation, all gone in one snoke. Er, I mean "stroke". I guess that's gone in the toilet faster than Snoke can say "Oh crap, was I just unexpectedly cut in two by a lightsaber. F...[ML]" And, frankly, with the same feeling of being a Rian Johnson after-thought. Maybe we should start up a meme that anytime a major theme / component / character is suddenly done away with and for no explicable, plausible, or readily apparent reason, we'll call it a "being RianJ'd".

And to think I complained about J.J. Abrams or George Lucas or whomever the $&*k it is that's been doing Star Wars lately. Blimey.

¹ Reportedly, Moem's World is the hip and trendy planet to be from.
² I'm waiting to see how many people get the Monty Python and the Holy Grail reference.
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Re: Star Trek: Picard... who here is planning on watching it?

Post by Minux1 »

Star Trek the senile generation (including the writers).
... and what was that inane gibberish they call an ending ????

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Re: Star Trek: Picard... who here is planning on watching it?

Post by Portreve »

I guess another thing that hasn't changed in 400 years: you can still get away with murder.
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Re: Star Trek: Picard... who here is planning on watching it?

Post by ZakGordon »

I'm happily re-watching The Next Generation; "make it so!"

What a total breath of fresh air to see Picard behaving like 'himself' and being credible as a Starship Captain. And most of the scripts are surprisingly well done. It's like the people making the show knew what they were doing and had a specific plan and goal in mind. It all feels 'credible' and not like it has been cobbled together by high-school students with a big budget and no clue.

Once NextGen is done i will move onto Voyager, which also carried that same hallmark of professionalism and credibility. Deep Space Nine also has this quality, but it was perhaps the start of the slide towards 'dark and gritty is the new cool' (that ultimately led us to where we are now after the New Star trek movies and STD and now Picard), and i personally found it a little too oppressive and 'static' vs Next Gen and Voyager. it was still 'quality' Star Trek though.

So in short i have zero faith in any of the new current gen of TV producers, writers and actors to create quality content, so i will pass them by and save my money for the more deserving cases when they, very, very occasionally, arise.

Edit: This post took 5 mins to 'post' on my laptop, so i am now on the desktop to avoid all that!
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Re: Star Trek: Picard... who here is planning on watching it?

Post by Minux1 »

The "out of the moth balls" "resuscitations" are seldom the same calibre as the original movies/series ... Beverly Hillbillies, Terminator, Picard, Halloween ...
Can't blame them for trying to squeeze the last nickel out of old money makers.
Picard was TNG on life support ... time to pull the plug. :mrgreen:

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Re: Star Trek: Picard... who here is planning on watching it?

Post by Portreve »

I've been thinking about what I would have done if I were in charge. It's been an interesting thought experiment so far, and it definitely shows how influenced I've become by Babylon 5's story development style.

I'll jot a few ideas down here when I get a chance, if anybody's interested.
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Re: Star Trek: Picard... who here is planning on watching it?

Post by ZakGordon »

The problem now for nearly all media is it HAS to be a smash hit (paying customer views) and the only way to currently ensure that is hit the bottom of the barrel (as i see it) or just aim super low-brow. Who cares if the story or characters make sense? Just ensure it is a 'thrill ride' of 'action and explosions' all at constant 'fast pace' to keep peoples wandering attentions fixed. Blow stuff up, make them scream and rage under the total loss of control of their emotions due to the 'drama' of their situation and keep the pace moving along, destroying as many assets as possible as you go. People want that, more people than were true sci-fi fans back when being one was not 'popular'. Now you HAVE TO chase the popular crowd, be with lots of lightsaber action (so they can swing their own in the cinema) or just constant pace and destruction to keep their short attention-span active.

I sound very disparaging, but i feel this is just the matter-of-fact reality and people like myself (that likes smartly written and well developed stories, and do not mind a show taking it's time to introduce and resolve characters and plots) no longer matter in terms of the bottom line for these shows. They need the footfall, and those feet NEED constant action and fast paces or they get bored and go watch/do something else.

So all i can do is NOT give this new generation of TV content my money (vote with my feet/wallet) in the hope more people like myself feel the same and maybe, it will eventually make a difference to the studios that make these things? The only thing i know for sure is i can't pay for people to destroy my favourite genre's in tv and film, that just feels wrong on all levels. Also it REALLY hurts to try to watch something that feels like i'm being hit over the head with a hammer (how i sum up my viewing experiences of all the Star Wars films starting with the Prequels!). It's just not healthy for me!

Luckily the odd 'good' show/film escapes the crap-fest and i can enjoy those (The Orville (yes silly, but silly on purpose and more Star Trek than the official New Star Trek stuff), The Expanse etc) while i mostly now re-watch the better older classics.
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Re: Star Trek: Picard... who here is planning on watching it?

Post by MurphCID »

Reading the reviews here, I am glad I did not watch it at all. I will continue to tune in here for more.

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Re: Star Trek: Picard... who here is planning on watching it?

Post by ZakGordon »

Well mine is just my opinion on these issues, i have no issue if people are happy with Picard (and some are for sure) so maybe go check out some clips to get a feel if it could be fun for you, i mean we all need something to do to while away the hours taken up by work ;)
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Re: Star Trek: Picard... who here is planning on watching it?

Post by gittiest personITW »

Haven't read the thread, but this season is very similar to Firely/Serenity except not as good.
A bit corny.
I like JLP as a character but he doesn't fit into this series.

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Re: Star Trek: Picard... who here is planning on watching it?

Post by lsemmens »

Firefly should have continued beyond its short run. Andromeda was another one whose death was unfortunate. FWIW I was also a fan of Red Dwarf, but that was not truly Sci Fi.
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Re: Star Trek: Picard... who here is planning on watching it?

Post by Portreve »

Here's an opening salvo for an idea of how I'd have done Picard if I were in a position to do so.

Even though nothing will actually come of this effort, I still wouldn't mind feedback from the LM community about this, critical or positive.

Star Trek: Picard, a Redux

PROLOGUE:
  1. The events of Star Trek: The Original Series, Star Trek: The Next Generation, Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, and Star Trek: Voyager have still transpired. Star Trek: Enterprise has partially occurred; the Time War is gone, the stupidity of the fourth season is gone, and in lieu of all of that, we instead see much more of the early expansion efforts of both The Federation and Starfleet.
  2. “J.J. Abrams,” to borrow from G'Kar of Babylon 5, “no longer exists in my world.”
  3. The Borg, as originally depicted as being mechanistic, however advanced their accumulated technology may be, replaces their later gothic horror depiction as being quasi-vampiric.
  4. Star Trek: Generations never happened.
  5. Star Trek: First Contact also never happened.
  6. Star Trek: Insurrection happened, but contained some greater hints of the Federation's changing in reaction to the Borg engagements and severe damage done to Starfleet and Federation member worlds.
  7. Star Trek: Nemesis happened, and continues some of the themes mentioned above: the Federation is starting to change, and we can see the seeds of doubt planted in Picard's mind in particular, and the potential for similar seeds in the minds of the other principles.
During the period from the end of Star Trek: The Next Generation to what would be the first episode of Picard Redux, the Federation is grappling with several simultaneous struggles. There is a perception that the Federation has not been doing an adequate job of protecting and defending its member worlds. The seperatist group The Maquis are seen as much more of a terrorist group, rightly or wrongly, and various groups (member worlds, partial populations of member worlds, certain political groups) push aggressively to have them wiped out. The situation escalates, eventually making martyrs out of the leaders of the group.

Many member worlds are still grappling with damage done during the various Borg engagements, and whole sectors of space are dealing with the fallout of conflicts with the Dominion, Cardassians, Klingons, and Romulans. There is a splintering effect largely based on differences in attitudes between war weariness and pushing to make the Federation fundamentally more militant in an effort to make them so strong that they can take on any adversary. Starfleet is seen as the enforcement arm of newer, more combative Federation policy, with some relishing in it and others put off by it.

Picard still did rise to the rank of Admiral, and had served for over a decade at that rate, seen by many as one of the Federation's top diplomats (because of his service record and general disposition). Seeing a continuing decline in what Picard regards as both the Federation's and Starfleet's "moral authority" to govern, he retires from service. He's never fully gotten over the sacrifice Data made to save him, questioning his own judgement and subconsciously thinking (feeling, actually) that that's the real reason Starfleet Command really pushed for him to become a Flag Officer and give up the Captain's Chair for good.

During this time, there occurs a schism within the Romulan Empire, with quite a number of people defecting (with some spies and saboteurs among them). Spock's efforts at reunification are partially responsible for this, but the Romulans have over-extended themselves in many areas, have also taken a fair amount of damage, and it happens that two of these people, Laris and Zhaban, husband and wife members of the Tal Shiar (Romulan secret police) have been forced to leave. They were on a ship which was being hunted and had been badly damaged by a combination of Romulan and other forces, and this ship along with several others was saved through the direct actions of then-Admiral Picard and a fleet he was commanding at the time. They admitted who they were, realizing they no longer had a future in their own society, and Picard intervened to stop them being murdered by otherwise unsympathetic members of one of the ships. Even though technically what those Starfleet members tried to do was illegal, sentiment at the time wound up simply causing more trouble for Admiral Picard.

When Laris and Zhaban learned Picard had retired from Starfleet (which by then had developed, as mentioned above, some serious respect issues), and why he'd retired, they sold every last possession they owned, except for the clothes they were wearing, to move to Earth, where they then found Picard and offered to work for him on the family vineyard he'd decided to return to instead of continuing his career. Beyond that, Laris and Zhaban are otherwise as depicted in CBS's Picard, and are fiercely loyal to him personally.
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