Birthday gift for me [System 76 Darter Pro]

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Re: Birthday gift for me [System 76 Darter Pro]

Post by Lady Fitzgerald »

MurphCID wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:57 am Having been spoiled by the Lemur Pro battery, I can say that the Darter Pro battery is underwhelming in daily use. In real world usage, I am currently getting about 3-4 hours max from the laptop. Since System 76 is out of laptops, I am thinking seriously about getting this one (in about six months): https://www.tuxedocomputers.com/en/Linu ... en6.tuxedo I just hope that ordering is secure.
I've ruled out Tuxedo for now. Being located in Germany is a turn off due to longer shipping times. Their documentation is lacking and confusing. One reason I bought my System76 machine is I was able to download the manual so I could get a good look at what was inside and see how easy it would be to work on, such as adding drives ('twas a pity the manual was horribly out of date and incomplete). I looked at the TUXEDO Book XUX7-11. I couldn't find anywhere I could download a manual, another turnoff. In the one picture their website had of the "innards", I couldn't see where the M.2 SSDs would go; yet another turnoff. It's a shame since the battery specs and the ability to get a five year warranty were a plus but, if I'm going to spend that much money on anything, I want to know exactly what I'm getting and not be buying a pig in a poke.
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Re: Birthday gift for me [System 76 Darter Pro]

Post by MurphCID »

Lady Fitzgerald wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:54 am
MurphCID wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:57 am Having been spoiled by the Lemur Pro battery, I can say that the Darter Pro battery is underwhelming in daily use. In real world usage, I am currently getting about 3-4 hours max from the laptop. Since System 76 is out of laptops, I am thinking seriously about getting this one (in about six months): https://www.tuxedocomputers.com/en/Linu ... en6.tuxedo I just hope that ordering is secure.
I've ruled out Tuxedo for now. Being located in Germany is a turn off due to longer shipping times. Their documentation is lacking and confusing. One reason I bought my System76 machine is I was able to download the manual so I could get a good look at what was inside and see how easy it would be to work on, such as adding drives ('twas a pity the manual was horribly out of date and incomplete). I looked at the TUXEDO Book XUX7-11. I couldn't find anywhere I could download a manual, another turnoff. In the one picture their website had of the "innards", I couldn't see where the M.2 SSDs would go; yet another turnoff. It's a shame since the battery specs and the ability to get a five year warranty were a plus but, if I'm going to spend that much money on anything, I want to know exactly what I'm getting and not be buying a pig in a poke.
I understand your concerns. I am looking perhaps in November to replace the Darter Pro with something with a better battery. So I will wait to see what happens with System 76 between now and then.
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Re: Birthday gift for me [System 76 Darter Pro]

Post by MurphCID »

After my adventure with MX 19.4 AHS, I tried LMDE4. Well the long and short of it, was LMDE would not even boot on the Darter Pro. No joy at all. I suspect the issue is the 4.19 kernel does not play nice with Gen 1 Coreboot. I have found that on the Lemur Pro (Gen 2 Coreboot), it REALLY wants the 5.8 kernel. On the Darter Pro it is the same thing, it really wants the 5.8 or greater series kernels. While I want to try LMDE 4, I am unable to do so right now. I would wish that instead of keeping it pure Debian and locking you into whatever kernel the main Debian distro uses, it adopts more "Mint" like features which allow you to use other kernels such as the 5.4 and 5.8. I went back to Mint 20.1 and it works, but I really wanted to try LMDE 4.
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Re: Birthday gift for me [System 76 Darter Pro]

Post by MurphCID »

MX 19.4 AHS commentary on the Darter Pro: I like, and I mean really like some of the features of MX linux. I am unfamiliar with XFCE, but it is pretty functional. I LOVED their implementation of the MX tools. That is IMHO perhaps a shade better than that on Mint 20.1. I also really appreciated the Conky desktop widget. Another area I thought was very well done was the ease of installation. Now I was less thrilled by the way the Darter Pro with Gen 1 Coreboot dealt with the 5.10 kernel. In Mint on the 5.8, I have wifi, keyboard lights, and most of the functionality that I had on Pop OS (and this is without the System 76 PPAs installed). On the MX Linux setup, I did have wifi, but no lights, and some more limited functionality for some reason. I do not think that this is the fault of MX Linux, but a "feature" of the Gen 1 Coreboot from System 76.

If I had to go away from Mint, I would absolutely use MX Linux AHS system as my daily driver. The Darter has become my experimental system, and I always bring it back to Mint. These are not dual boots, they are completely clean installations. I format and install rather than dual boot or use the system on the flash drive to test. I want to play on real metal. I think that this less than 100% success is due to the Gen 1 Coreboot from System 76, not a fault of the distribution.
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Re: Birthday gift for me [System 76 Darter Pro]

Post by Brickman »

one of your problems is that the system 76 hardware is built specifically to run their own OS [Pop os] which is compiled expressly for that brand, I have seen many complaints across the net of people trying to run Pop on mass produced boxes, and quite a few tying to run a general Linux build on 75 boxes,
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Re: Birthday gift for me [System 76 Darter Pro]

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Brickman wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 8:00 am one of your problems is that the system 76 hardware is built specifically to run their own OS [Pop os] which is compiled expressly for that brand, I have seen many complaints across the net of people trying to run Pop on mass produced boxes, and quite a few tying to run a general Linux build on 75 boxes,
Understood. My lemur pro with gen 2 coreboot seems to work fine.
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Re: Birthday gift for me [System 76 Darter Pro]

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I'm going to try the 5.11 kernel on this computer.
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Re: Birthday gift for me [System 76 Darter Pro]

Post by MurphCID »

Loaded it, and while it works, the computer takes a much longer time to shut down compared to the 5.8 kernel. The first shutdown after loading the 5.11 kernel I had to hard power down the system since it hung in shut down. I suspect, but have no way to determine this completely but I think it might have something to do with Coreboot which is odd, but the Gen one Coreboot has had odd issues. Power sucks. After all this time I get about 3 hours of use. Linux needs better power control. All in all, I am less happy with this laptop than any other I have owned. But it is not all bad, the screen and keyboard are great.
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Re: Birthday gift for me [System 76 Darter Pro]

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I am seriously considering replacing the Darter (which is having some keyboard issues), with this one: https://www.tuxedocomputers.com/en/Linu ... en1.tuxedo It has an Ethernet port which is important to me. The Lemur Pro does not and I have to use a dongle (I hate dongles).

I asked them some questions such as:
1) Can it run Mint (and will it void the warranty) without issue? Coreboot (gen 1) has issues as I have detailed here.
2) Warranty and Returns.

The ginormous 91 Watt/hour battery makes me drool, I can use it for hours and hours....
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Re: Birthday gift for me [System 76 Darter Pro]

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Well further adventures of the Darter Pro; Manjaro. Tried it, had LOTS of issues which I suspect are related to Coreboot. No Wifi, no lights, same issues I had under the 4 series kernel on 19.3. Spent a couple of hours (to the Spouse Unit's annoyance when I should have been mowing the lawn) attempting to get it to work right. I did the XFCE version. I understand it is WAY different from Mint, but I don't have the time or the inclination at this point to spend my time trying to "get it right". Plus I suspect the Gen 1 coreboot might be part of the issue. So I went back to Mint. I will keep playing, maybe I will try Fedora or Red Hat or something like that next time. I don't really care at this point if I break the Darter, I am not fond of it.
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Re: Birthday gift for me [System 76 Darter Pro]

Post by MurphCID »

Now having issues with the power button, I really have to push on it hard to get the laptop to turn on. As soon as I can afford it, I am going to replace it with either a newer model Darter Pro (which looks to almost be the same as the Lemur Pro which is great), or an HP Envy. Maybe I got a lemon?
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Re: Birthday gift for me [System 76 Darter Pro]

Post by DAMIEN1307 »

Maybe I got a lemon?
Reaction to Lemon...lol...And people wonder why the kids won't eat their veggies when the parents tell them how good they are for them as they are growing up...lol...This is where it all starts...DAMIEN

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xwmpHE2haQ
Last edited by DAMIEN1307 on Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Birthday gift for me [System 76 Darter Pro]

Post by Lady Fitzgerald »

DAMIEN1307 wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:06 am Reaction to Lemon...lol...And people wonder why the kids won't eat their veggies when the parents tell them how good they are for them as they are growing up...lol...This is where it all starts...DAMIEN

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xwmpHE2haQ
That's just mean. :lol:
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Re: Birthday gift for me [System 76 Darter Pro]

Post by MurphCID »

Lady Fitzgerald wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:19 am
DAMIEN1307 wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:06 am Reaction to Lemon...lol...And people wonder why the kids won't eat their veggies when the parents tell them how good they are for them as they are growing up...lol...This is where it all starts...DAMIEN

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xwmpHE2haQ
That's just mean. :lol:
But funny....
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Re: Birthday gift for me [System 76 Darter Pro]

Post by MurphCID »

I found the replacement for the Darter Pro: https://xoticpc.com/products/sager-np35 ... mize_block
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Re: Birthday gift for me [System 76 Darter Pro]

Post by MurphCID »

Coreboot strikes again! Mageia does not want to load and run properly on the Darter Pro. [Insert much foul language here]. I am going to keep trying, and see what I can do. ()!*$*!&!%*!@!!!!!

Manjaro 21.12 is installed but feels strangely laggy, I am using Cinnamon since it is closest to Mint. Weird things going on as before, I suspect Coreboot is not liking Manjaro 21.12 with the 5.14 kernel.

Toasting Cinnamon, I will try KDE and see if it works better....
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Re: Birthday gift for me [System 76 Darter Pro]

Post by MurphCID »

IT IS ALIVE! I (somehow) managed to get Manjaro 21.12 KDE with 5.13 kernel installed, and it seems to be working. I am installing some software, but the commands are certainly different. I will let you know how it goes. the 5.13 kernel found the WiFi card and configured it with no issues. Some odd things, I am trying sudo pacman install neofetch and get nada. I guess Konsole is the terminal, it operates differently than what I am used to, I guess it is a Zsh shell. I will keep playing with it. I would have liked the Cinnamon version, I might try XFCE later. I am just glad it is actually working. Coreboot shows that it can re-install Pop OS even though I thought I had nuked it off the system.

Don't like KDE so I am going to try XFCE. So I will try it again.
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Re: Birthday gift for me [System 76 Darter Pro]

Post by MurphCID »

Ah, to heck with it, Mint works, and works the way I want. The others just are not my cup of tea. [Insert biologically improbable act of self impregnation comment here] I am just re-installing Mint. Coreboot loathes MX Linux, does not work with LMDE (4 series kernel), and Manjaro is nice, but I do not have the mental energy right now to relearn how to use Terminal/Konsole, etc. I also loathe Gnome, since it is a 3rd rate Mac knock off attempting to be a touch screen operating system. I AM somewhat interested in Cutefish since it looks interesting, and very attractive.
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Re: Birthday gift for me [System 76 Darter Pro]

Post by MurphCID »

I bit the bullet and ordered the replacement for this system. The new one has less ram, but the same drive as the Darter. As soon as it arrives, the Darter Pro gets Pop OS back on it, and goes to the brother in law. It has been an interesting ride, but probably one of the less enjoyable laptops I have owned. The saddest part is that it was not just one major thing, but a bunch of little things that just made this a very unsatisfying laptop. Takedown was highly annoying, hardware problems, a firmware brick, unsatisfactory repair service (came back dirty and not working), Coreboot issues, a screw fell out of the back of the laptop by the hinge rendering the hinge unusable until I replaced the screw ( I had taken all of them out to install more RAM, and SSD).

But can I completely blame System 76 or should I throw some shade (as my daughter says) towards Clevo? Also part of my dislike has to do with Pop OS/Gnome. You would think that Ubuntu based distros would work pretty much the same, but it was little things, even as simple as right click on the menu item in Cinnamon to uninstall software or pin to panel. Such a well thought out and executed design. I added Mint to the Lemur Pro, and have had fewer issues with it than the Darter. The Darter was installed with Mint 19 series, and it did not want nor love the 4 series kernels, and so things just did not work. Once I went with a 5.8 or later Kernel, both the Darter and Lemur started working well. Coreboot should not lock you out of Wifi/keyboard lights/etc due to the Kernel, which was a major annoyance.

I am disappointed in both myself (for having a too high expectations), and for not doing even more research on the Darter before I got it. Normally I over research things before I buy. The fact that the familia got me the Lemur Pro made me re-develop some faith in System 76. The worst part is that after reading Lady Fitzgerald's posts on her experience with System 76 causes me to have a bit of a skeptical eye towards them. At the same time I WANT to support Linux computer vendors because I believe in Linux, and wish it the best. So I have ordered probably what will by my very last laptop, my retirement laptop, and when it arrives the first thing I will do is install Mint, and never look back. The Darter has been a testing machine, but to some extent a very unsatisfying one due to (my perceived) issues with Coreboot and other distros. I did get Manjaro working, and it worked well, and steady, but I just an not familiar enough with Arch syntax to stay with it, and Zsh instead of Bash. It just would not ever load or run LMDE, Mageia, and now MX Linux. Just.would.not.work. The fact that certain distributions are effectively locked out is unacceptable.

So this will most likely be the very last entry here, since it is going away. I hope my brother in law is able to enjoy it. It has 32gb of good ram, 500 gb NVME, and solid WiFi/Ethernet performance. The replacement only has 16gb of Ram, but the same 500gb NVME drive. I came to the conclusion that 16gb is more than enough for me, and for future proofing. I can always add more if needed. The Lemur can take an extra drive if I need space, and it also can take extra ram as well (up to 40gb), so I am future proofed except for batteries. Battery life on the Darter, even with TLP enabled was never good, in my normal use scenario (Youtube, Chrome, LibreOffice, Thunderbird) no keyboard lights, bluetooth off, screen brightness at 40%, I would get 3.5/4 hours of use. At least to my mind in this day and age that is unacceptable. I would do everything I could to squeeze that last little bit of power out of the battery, but seldom got better than 4 hours. I expect and would hope for at least 6 hours.

I realize this is long winded, but I just wanted a last summation of the Darter Pro and my experiences with it. If I have beaten this deceased equine too much, I apologize, and thanks for reading.
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Re: Birthday gift for me [System 76 Darter Pro]

Post by Lady Fitzgerald »

MurphCID wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:20 am I bit the bullet and ordered the replacement for this system...
Careful! You can hurt your teeth that way. (Sorry, I had a rough night--leg cramps and hot flashes--and i'm in one of my weird moods :wink: )
MurphCID wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:20 am ...The new one has...the same drive as the Darter...
Since System 76 didn't offer anything better than the Samsung EVOs (I prefer the Samsung Pros for drives installed in a computer when possible), I ordered mine with a 250GB drive with Ubuntu installed (I'm leery of proprietary OSes, even if free, because support is entirely dependent on the company that puts it out and I would be S.O.L. if the company went belly up), then immediately replaced it with a 512GB Sammy Pro (overkill for me--even 250GB would be overkill--but it's the smallest Pro Samsung offers) and installed Mint on it. I can swap back the original drive (and have done so on occasion) and have the original OS should things go horribly wrong (which has happened). I keep all my data (with the exception of my calendar and Sticky notes; I don't get a choice there) on other drives so even 250GB was overkill for me.
MurphCID wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:20 am ...It has been an interesting ride, but probably one of the less enjoyable laptops I have owned. The saddest part is that it was not just one major thing, but a bunch of little things that just made this a very unsatisfying laptop. Takedown was highly annoying, hardware problems, a firmware brick, unsatisfactory repair service (came back dirty and not working), Coreboot issues, a screw fell out of the back of the laptop by the hinge rendering the hinge unusable until I replaced the screw ( I had taken all of them out to install more RAM, and SSD)...
My experience was similar (you can add deception with the USB ports in the ratings to the list) but, with the exception of the problems, I'm pretty much satisfied with this laptop (actually, the number and location of USB ports, and the number and capacity of drives that I can cram into it has me spoiled putrid). It's pity that it has only a three year warranty (which is over half spent) since they discontinued it shortly after I bought it and I've yet to find a satisfactory replacement for it should I ever need one.
MurphCID wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:20 am ...But can I completely blame System 76 or should I throw some shade (as my daughter says) towards Clevo?...
I would give both System 76 and Clevo blame for the problems with our machines.
MurphCID wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:20 am ...I am disappointed in both myself (for having a too high expectations), and for not doing even more research on the Darter before I got it. Normally I over research things before I buy...
Don't feel bad. I researched the heck out of System 76 before I bought my machine and I now wonder about the veracity of the reviewers (or did System 76 bend over bass-ackwards for them to ensure good reviews?). Anymore now, one can be very thorough with their research and still get snookered.
MurphCID wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:20 am ...so I am future proofed except for batteries. Battery life on the Darter, even with TLP enabled was never good, in my normal use scenario (Youtube, Chrome, LibreOffice, Thunderbird) no keyboard lights, bluetooth off, screen brightness at 40%, I would get 3.5/4 hours of use. At least to my mind in this day and age that is unacceptable. I would do everything I could to squeeze that last little bit of power out of the battery, but seldom got better than 4 hours. I expect and would hope for at least 6 hours...
About that. Strictly speaking, there is no such thing as future proofing but I get what you mean. I always try to get or design things with maximum possible longevity as possible, including spares of parts that may get discontinued (it's saved my ample asset more than once).

While I was disappointed with the battery runtime on my machine, I wasn't all that concerned since I usually ran my Lenovos on AC anyway and had planned on doing the same with my beast of a laptop. Still, it would have been nice if Clevo could have "squoze" in a bigger battery. On the plus side, the better is removable and replaceable, unlike many modern laptops/notebooks. My greater concern was being able to get a replacement battery for the 'beast" when it eventually wore out. Hmm... if the laptop is "The Beast", would that make me "Beauty"? (never mind, I just looked in the mirror :roll: ).

I was more concerned with how long the battery would remain usable. After discovering that *&^%$#@! Lenovo DRMs their machines so they will not properly accept aftermarket batteries (even after they no longer make the batteries), I also ordered a spare battery and PSU when I bought The Beast. Since dear, sweet System 76 discontinued my machine shortly after I bought it, I'm even more glad I got the spares.

The extra PSU turned out to be doubly useful. My "work station" is crowded and the enormous PSU (it's literally the size, shape, and weight of a brick!) would have to live on the floor behind the desk (which also made keeping the floor back there more difficult) and getting at it when I needed to take the beast with me somewhere would be a chore for my broken down old carcass. Since I had the spare PSU anyway, I keep it in my laptop bag (along with the extra battery). I Velcroed the other PSU to the side of my desk and coiled up the extra cord and hung it to a hook stuck to the side of the desk. I have an easy to reach, switched power strip on the side of the night stand to the right of the desk since it's a real bugger for a flatulent geriatric like me to get to the wall sockets so I plug the PSU into it so I can easily turn off the power to the PSU when it's not in use.

The Beast has a setting in the BIOS that allows the battery to not recharge until it drops below 40%, then charges it up to only 80% so that will hopeful extend the usability of the battery before I need to resort to using the spare, especially since I rarely run on battery only. I have swapped out the battery in the laptop with the spare once and I'll probably do it again later this year.

I recently saw a BoobTube video that stated that one downside of Linux, despite it having a lighter footprint than Windwoes or MacOS, is it has poorer battery life. "Curiouser and curiouser," said Jeannie (apologies to Charles Dodgson).
Jeannie

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