Medieval Latin.

[dorsetUK]

Interesting. Living in a castle has to have a certain suck factor especially in winter....

Yeah, indeed.

Castles – a new thing to the Saxons. The centre of power. Run by ‘important’ people.

In a small place like Wareham, Alfred2 must have been hated, feared and/or respected. Whichever, it could have been good for his ego.

Then there’s Robert Curthose.

After his defeat to his younger brother, Henry I, at Tinchebrai in 1105, according to the Annales Monastici de wintonia (Annals of Winchester), he was first imprisoned at Wareham; with Oderic Vitalis saying that … he was afterwards given into the custody of the great Bishop Roger of Salisbury, who kept him in his magnificent castle at Devizes.

Then in 1113 Robert of Belleme - or ‘de Montgomery’, comte de Ponthieu, 3rd Earl of Shrewsbury and Arundel - made Wareham his home.

The thing with prisoners of such standing is that it was expected that they would be treated with the honour that their standing deserved – well - that’s chivalry for you.

Imagine though, being Alfred2, or one of his family, and having Curthose - WtCs son, the Duke of Normandy, a Crusader – under your care.

I can’t.

And then there’s the cold of a castle.

They didn’t have many fireplaces.

The kitchen would be nice and toasty, then there’d be one in the main hall and one in their personal quarters – in a manor house, the Solar.

At Corfe, it’s known that there was one in the main gatehouse, as there’s a record to repair it.

Most of us lived in wattle and daub buildings which would have had a fire with the dual purpose of cooking and warming – and we often brought our animals inside, as they’d provide heat and ...

I think that ‘back then’ they must have just ‘expected’ to be cold – a bit like; park rangers, all year round motorcyclists, RNLI volunteers, foot patrol – beat? - police officers etc.

But those who lived in castles, could be warm – so long as they didn’t move too much!

In Dorset there’s a much later – late 14th century - bit of evidence of the ‘sheriffs house’, where he had his ‘hall’ where he’d conduct his day to day business, and the ceiling is sooty as hell. The suggestion being that he’d have had a brazier, or similar, to keep himself warm whilst he dealt with those day to day issues. His ‘solar’ had a fireplace.

Which almost makes me think that the ‘posh’ would say; ‘you’re cold, well that’s normal – but I’ve got a fireplace – ha ha!’

Actually, I doubt that, but, well, y’know ...

[absque fenestris]

Often forgotten in castles and residential towers are the small places where one goes alone.
If one is willing to take note of the bare facts in reconstructions of these outside hanging cubicles, surprising perspectives open up: the subjects must have been very well informed about the respective state of the intestinal tract of their authorities.

[dorsetUK]

Often forgotten in castles and residential towers are the small places where one goes alone.
If one is willing to take note of the bare facts in reconstructions of these outside hanging cubicles, surprising perspectives open up: the subjects must have been very well informed about the respective state of the intestinal tract of their authorities.

af, your use of English is brilliant. That's the best description of a toilet that I've ever read. Thank you.

[absque fenestris]

The described matter can be seen very nicely in the movie Jabberwocky by Terry Gilliam, but with a less elevated personality and consequently with a lower fall height.

And I can assure you that I had to struggle with this circumstance during a reconstruction drawing of the main tower of Lenzburg Castle. What a hearty attached little cabin high up in the air and what is the little hole for?
It gets number 7 in the legend and is described as "The bailiff's personal lookout directly below".
No better, you retouch that ...

[dorsetUK]

The described matter can be seen very nicely in the movie Jabberwocky by Terry Gilliam, but with a less elevated personality and consequently with a lower fall height.

And I can assure you that I had to struggle with this circumstance during a reconstruction drawing of the main tower of Lenzburg Castle. What a hearty attached little cabin high up in the air and what is the little hole for?
It gets number 7 in the legend and is described as "The bailiff's personal lookout directly below".
No better, you retouch that ...

I’d totally forgotten about ‘Jabberwocky’, best try and see if I can find it somewhere! Purely for research I hope you understand.

... described as "The bailiff's personal lookout directly below". No better, you retouch that …



Thanks for Lenzburgh, what a gem.

I love the way it emerges from – or blends into - the natural outcrop, but sadly, I can’t see your ‘bailiff's personal lookout’.

[ironbark]

I'm American, and I do like what my culture has done to English (in terms of standardizing spelling).....

With all due respect Portreve, there are many who deplore what America has done to the English language. Only an American would think America has standardised the spelling. I'm Australian and speak an Australian version of the English language but our spelling of words has remained English, not American.

If your culture has standardised spelling, it has done so only for Americans.

[Portreve]

I'm American, and I do like what my culture has done to English (in terms of standardizing spelling).....

With all due respect Portreve, there are many who deplore what America has done to the English language. Only an American would think America has standardised the spelling. I'm Australian and speak an Australian version of the English language but our spelling of words has remained English, not American.

If your culture has standardised spelling, it has done so only for Americans.

So... *cracks knuckles*

Let's get something straight: English is a highly hijacked descendant of German which was then kicked around like a football by the Danes and the Dutch and the printing presses of God knows who else, and when the British finally got their grubby little mitts on it, did they straighten any of that out? FRAK NO! of course they didn't. Those folk left in the extra Us and silent Ks, making English (if we're being honest) a complete dog's breakfast of a written language.

Then they thought if they'd let us have Shakespeare, we'd be adequately mollified. But have you seen what he did with it? Let's just invent words with reckless abandon and take haphazard spelling rules to new heights.

Meanwhile, to the south, at least the French had the good sense to standardize everything and then write that down in a book. Well, ok, a series of books. But at least they came up with an official standard. Y'know, like how they also came up with Metric.

Oh, and as for those benighted folks from the north'rn isles, the British are holding the word "fortnight" hostage to this day and refusing to let it come out and play with us. I've heard the Kiwis are in on this evil scheme, though of course that's really little more than a rumor.

At least in America we have tried to do what we could, along with, well, our efforts to chop the used vocabulary down to like, what?... A couple hundred A hundred Like 50 words?

</sarcasm>


On a far more serious note, spelling aside, I always enjoy listening to folk from the land down under as well as from the British Isles speak because, quite honestly, they restore a semblance of vibrancy, texture, and culture to the language which is sadly absent from most American speakers' lexicons.

[ironbark]

At least in America we have tried to do what we could, along with, well, our efforts to chop the used vocabulary down to like, what?... A couple hundred A hundred Like 50 words?

Leaving the knuckles and sarcasm out of it, I find it odd that Americans have so much trouble with the English language they feel the need to change the spelling of it's words. British people, most here in Australia, and I daresay many other English speaking countries get along quite nicely without such changes.

On a far more serious note, spelling aside, I always enjoy listening to folk from the land down under as well as from the British Isles speak because, quite honestly, they restore a semblance of vibrancy, texture, and culture to the language which is sadly absent from most American speakers' lexicons.

I quite agree with this statement and will add that I also enjoy listening to English spoken by a European or Russian. Their natural accent seems to add a musical quality to the words spoken.

[Portreve]

I find it odd that Americans have so much trouble with the English language they feel the need to change the spelling of it's words. British people, most here in Australia, and I daresay many other English speaking countries get along quite nicely without such changes.

I really do not know the history of English in America. If I had to hazard just an off-handed guess, it would be that the U.S. being a nation of immigrants has likely taken its toll. During the course of the 20th century, and especially after WWII, the pace of American life accelerated greatly, and with it came ever greater pushes for efficiency. We flattened our use of English. Also, from especially the 50s on, we've been far more interested in the somewhat nebulous goal of "success" and far less so in cultural enrichment.

If you go back to the writing of Americans from the 1700s and 1800s, it looks significantly different from that from the 1900s.

The easiest example for you to put your hands on (just go to YouTube) is Ken Burns' The Civil War. Listen to the letters written by regular soldiers and civilians to their families. It's very, very different from today.

[dorsetUK]

Thank, um, someone for the Montacute Cartulary.

Unfortunately, although the records are numbered that doesn’t mean that they’re chronologically correct. They’re close, but not quite.

No. 118. Charter of Robert de Lincolnia concerning the gift of the land which is called Holne, for the establishment and maintenance of monks there.

I, Robert de Lincolnia, determined to found a religious house to the honour of God, give to the church and monks of Montacute my land which is called Holne, so that a religious order consisting of thirteen monks may be established there. This gift, with the advice and consent of the bishop of Salisbury, I and my wife Benza and my son Alvred have made in the presence of the prior and monks of Montacute and Sir Gilbert a monk (to whom personally I had previously given the same place) and others, namely William de Lundonia, Walter and Richard. This I have done for the soul of my lord, King Henry, and for the souls of my father and mother, my ancestors, myself, my wife, and sons. I give also to the said monks three virgates of land in Wrde, and a tithe of the bread, meat, and fish from the store of my house, and of my heirs, and one tribute of salt from my saltcotes adjoining my manor of Langeton, also the whole tithe of my demesne of Acforde, and of Winterburne Gurewambe, and of Langeton, near Abotesbire, and of Corfton, also the tithe of the said three virgates, which gave to them from my demesne of Wrde. Also Bardulph, my knight, with my consent and that of Alvred my son, has given them the whole tithe of the demesne of Chiselburneforde, and of Watercumb.

Witnesses : — Robert de Musters ; Samson de Lincolnia ; Robert deBosco ; Robert German ; Bardulph Bussel and Gervase his brother.

No. 119. Charter of Alvred de Lincoln, son of the said Robert, concerning the gift, grant, and confirmation of the gift of the said Robert, together with his gift of a tithe of the bread, meat, and fish from the store of his house, and of his heirs, wheresoever they may make their abode, and a tithe from his salt-cotes of Purbic, and many other things here contained.

I, Alvred de Lincoln, for the welfare of my soul, and that of my wife Albreda, and for the soul of my father Robert de Lincoln, confirm to Saints Peter and Paul of Montacute, and the monks there, the gift of my father, and of the Lady Benza, my mother, namely the church and place of Holne, with the land and all belongings. I give and grant also for the maintenance of the monks dwelling at Holne, a tithe of the bread, meat, and fish from the store of my house, Wheresoever in England I, my heirs and successors may make our abode, and a tithe of salt from my salt-cotes in Purbike ; also three virgates of land in Wrde, and the tithes of the same, the land of Plys with pasture for ten oxen, one heifer, and two hundred and fifty sheep, feeding anywhere in Plys with the oxen, sheep, and other beasts of the abbot of Glastonbury ; the whole tithe of my demesne of Acforde and of Winterburne Gurewambe, and of Langetone, which is near Abbotisbire, and of Corftone, and the tithe of the garden near Bradele ; also the whole tithe of the demesne of Chiselburneforde and of Watercumbe, which Bardulph Bussel, my knight, with the consent of my father and myself, bestowed upon the aforesaid place ; and the church of Wermewelle, which Gunfred, my man, with my consent, Geoffrey his son hearing and consenting, released and granted to the brethren of Holne. All the above I give, grant, and confirm to the said monks, to have, receive, and hold freely, making no return for the same except prayers and divine services for the souls of all my ancestors and successors.

Witnesses : — Andrew, my brother ; Samson de Lincoln ; Robert de Bosco ; Robert de Antiochia ; Peter, my brother ; William Mauclerc (Mains clericus) ; Roger, my chaplain.

No. 120. Charter of Robert Danevile concerning three acres and a half of land called Cherchyde in Langetone.

Robert Daneville, for the souls of his father Alvred, and of his mother, and for the welfare of himself, his wife Mabel, and his sons, grants to St. Mary of Holne, three acres and a half of land called Cherchyde in the town of Langetone, in the year of Our Lord 1178. And he confirms this with his seal, desiring and enjoining that none of his descendants shall venture to diminish this gift, or presume to take it away from the place of Holne, where his father Alvred Daneville rests in peace.

Witnesses : — Sir Alvred de Lincoln ; the Lady Albereda ; Andrew de Lincoln ; Alvred Talebota ; Luke ; William de Sancto Quintino, the priest ; William Abraham ; Roger my brother ; the Lady Mabel, my wife ; Robert, clerk, and Peter, my sons ; Hamel [in] Russel ; Geoffrey English, my servant

No. 124. Charter of Bardulph de Chiselburneford, knight, concerning the whole tithe of the demesne of Chiselburneford and of Watercombe.

Bardulph, knight of Chiseburneforde, with the consent of Emma his wife, and the approval of his lord Robert de Lincoln and of Alvred his son and heir, gives to Saints Peter and Paul of Montacute and the monks there the whole tithe of his demesne of Chiseburneford and of Watercumbe, to have and receive fully and freely for ever.

Witnesses : — My lord Robert de Lincoln, and Alvred his son ; Robert de Mustiers ; Samson de Lincoln : Robert de Bosco ; Robert German ; Gervase Bussel.

No. 125. Charter of Isabel, lady of Chiselburneford, concerning the grant and confirmation of the gift of the tithes of Chiselburneford.

Isabel, daughter and heiress of Samson Roch of Chiselburneford, with the consent of her husband Adam Carpentar and of her son and heir Richard Peitevin, with the approval of her lord Alvred de Lincoln, confirms the gift of Bardulph, knight and her other ancestors to the church of Montacute, namely, the whole tithe of the demesne of Chiseburneford small as well as great.

Witnesses : — My lord A. de Lincoln, and Alvred his son ; Martin Samson de Fromtune ; Sir Simon de Manester ; Robert Eustace ; Alexander, clerk of Holne ; Saer de Holne ; Walter Duket

No. 126. Charter of Gervase de Watercombe in what manner he has granted the aforesaid tithe of the demesne of Watercombe.

Gervase de Watercumbe, in the presence of Adelelm, archdeacon of Dorset and of Sir Alvred de Lincoln, grants to the monks and brethren of Holne the whole tithe of the demesne of Watercumbe in like manner as Bardulph Bussel his brother had previously granted it to them, except one cartload of corn, which the church of Wermwelle ought to have.

Witnesses : — Richard de Calne ; Robert de Gillefort ; Rainald, the dean ; William, chaplain of Prestone ; Fulk, chaplain of Corf ; the lady Albereda de Corf; Richard le Waleys [Walensis]; Andrew de Lincoln ; Robert de Monasteriis.

No. 131. Charter of Edgar surnamed Aquilinus, concerning twelve pence with a tithe of the bread of his house and of the fishing.

Edgar surnamed Aquilinus, for the souls of himself, his father and mother, and especially for the soul of his wife Mazelina, grants to St. Mary of Holne a rent of twelve pence on the feast of St. Michael. Adam, his son and heir, has approved of this grant in the presence of Sir Alvred de Lincoln, the patron of Holne, and of the lady Albereda his wife. Moreover he has granted a tithe of the bread of his house when he shall be residing there, and also of the fishing in that place.

Witnesses: — Sir Alvred de Lincoln, the lady Albereda his wife, and his son Sir Alvred the younger; Sir Eustace de Stokis ; Nicholas Francigena ; Andrew de Lincoln ; Roger de Tolosa ; Laurence the clerk ; William de Cari ; Richard Bastard.

No. 132. Charter of King Henry concerning the grant of the land of Holne.

Henry, King of England, to Roger, bishop of Salisbury and Warin, the sheriff and all the barons of Dorset. Know that I grant to Alfred de Lincoln to hold in fee the land of Holne, as Grimald the physician sold it to him.

Witnesses : — Roger, bishop of Salisbury ; Ran[ulph] the chancellor ; William Tancervill ; John Baioc[ensis]. At Winchester.

No. 134. Charter of Alvred de Lincoln concerning the gift of the land of Gillingeham and of Bruge near Waymue with the men.

Alvred de Lincoln gives and grants to Saints Peter and Paul of Montacute and the monks there all his land of Gyllingeham and all his land of Bruge near Waymue with the men and all other belongings quit of all secular services.

Witnesses : — Andrew de Lincoln ; Robert German ; Wuluuard Wyder ; Roger my secretary.

---

Note; No.132 and 4 should be Henry I, i.e. 1100-1135, but the others are later.

Note; ‘Holne’ is now ‘Holme’.

Another Note; things like Andrew de Lincoln ; Robert German ; are correct punctuation if you’re an English person during the Victorian era. And NO, I couldn’t be bothered to modernise them.

Oh streuth - One more Note; the ( ) and [ ] are the translators, and so far as I’m aware, correct. Although I am confused by Hamel [in] Russel.

Fer cryin’ out loud – one more - No. 120. Charter of Robert Danevile concerning three acres and a half of land called Cherchyde in Langetone.

That’s often thought to be Langton in Purbeck, but please, take it from me, it’s Langton near Weymouth – and until I thought that, it caused all sorts of problems. Please ignore things such as ‘Wilkswood was mentioned as a monastery’. It wasn’t. Bluddy historians!

Oh well, never mind – that’s one of the joys of history

[dorsetUK]

Bearing in mind that we already have things such as … Rotberti filii Alvuardi … Robert, son of Alfred de Nicole … Then Oderic Vitalis saying … Robert, fils d'Alvered de Lincoln, s'assura de la citadelle de Wareham.

Then I reckon that these are the main points from the Montecute Cartulary.

I, Robert de Lincolnia ... and my wife Benza and my son Alvred … as that helps to establish the ‘family’. Benza is most likely a sister of Isabella de Candos, heir to Alfred de Hispania, or her daughter. His son, ‘Alvred’, is, to me, Alfred3.

… my manor of Langeton, also the whole tithe of my demesne of Acforde, and of Winterburne Gurewambe, and of Langeton, near Abotesbire, and of Corfton, also the tithe of the said three virgates, which gave to them from my demesne of Wrde. Also Bardulph, my knight, with my consent and that of Alvred my son, has given them the whole tithe of the demesne of
Chiselburneforde, and of Watercumb.

That’s starting to show that Robert held much of the land that Hawise had held. (Wrde = Worth.)

… Samson de Lincolnia ; Robert de Bosco …

Samson is sometimes thought to be another of Roberts sons, but see below. I included the ‘de Boscos’, just cuz they were, originally, Hawises’ tenants and went on to be fairly big in Dorset, and one of them, nationally.

Then … Alvred de Lincoln, son of the said Robert … So that’s Alfred3 - again.

… and a tithe from his salt-cotes of Purbic …

That is crucial to the later history – the salt-cotes were in Purbeck – crucial.

Just to assuage my own doubts … my manor of Langeton ... and of Langeton, near Abotesbire …

His ‘manor’ was in Purbeck, and ‘Langeton, nr Abotesbire’ was just a chunk of land he held ‘from the king’. It’s now been reduced – WHOA, hold on! – grrrrrrrr – to Langton Herring.

… I, Alvred de Lincoln, for the welfare of my soul, and that of my wife Albreda, and for the soul of my father Robert de Lincoln …

So, Alfred3 married Albreda, aka Aubrey, who I can’t identify. The best I can do is to jump ahead to Afred5s IPM, where it says … Somerset: Norton manor ... which was given in free marriage with Aubrey, grandmother of the said Alfred, held of the heirs of William de Forz …

AH – WILLIAM DE FORZ – sorry – a major player in Magna Carta - but … William de Forz ... came to England, probably from Poitou, in 1214, and in September or October of that year secured possession of the English lands of his mother’s inheritance …

Wiki; William de ... Forz was the son of William de Forz (died 1195), and Hawise, Countess of Aumale (died 11 March 1214), a daughter of William le Gros, 1st Earl of Albemarle. His father was a minor nobleman from the village of Fors in Poitou …

It’s reckoned that Alfred3 died c1200, so, it’s possible, but unproven, that Albreda could have been a ‘de Forz’ or a ‘le Gros’, conceivably, the younger Williams aunt, but the 2nd, mebbie 3rd or even 4th daughter - or a cousin.

… the land of Plys … Now, Plush.

… the church of Wermewelle … Now, Warmwell.

… Andrew, my brother ; Samson de Lincoln ; ... Peter, my brother …

If Samson was another brother, why wasn’t he named as such? One suggestion is that he was knight of the de Lincoln family. Another is that he was a relation – nephew, cousin etc.

… My lord A. de Lincoln, and Alvred his son … A. de Lincoln is Alfred3 and he fathered Alfred4, who fathered Alfed5, who might have fathered Alfred6 – or might not have?