Medieval Latin.

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dorsetUK
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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by dorsetUK »

absque fenestris wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:57 pm
Hi Jon

It strikes me how poorly the time around 1300 is documented for the Alpine region. For example, the traffic over the Gotthard Pass, compared to the Brenner Pass, the Little St. Bernhard Pass or the Mont Cenis. Fees were raised and administered by imperial administrators, but practically nothing is known about the actual business operations (guides and their train and pack animals, quantities and times of transport, pioneers, snow clearers, catering...).

About the time of 1315, things like: miserable summer, strange sky, bad harvests, hunger or drastic reduction in livestock: nothing.
Hi af,

I always imagine that Switzerland must have a clean environment, but it may not always have been so. There may be something that the English may have to apologise for - Medieval Lead polutuion.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/scie ... 37546.html

Sorry about that, Jon

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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by absque fenestris »

Previous work on the same ice core in 2017 revealed the catastrophic impact of the 14th century Black Death on metal production.
Hi Jon

Thanks for the link - this is really a very interesting post. This ice study from the high Alps will surely provide other interesting and thought-provoking results in the future.
In addition to pollution from elsewhere, local mountain areas also had serious, homemade problems: such as centuries of deforestation (particularly ruthless e.g. in connection with slate quarrying), which then led to the forest protection law in 1902.
This actually reasonable law has been attacked more and more over the past few years.

Forest and Law (essay) https://szf-jfs.org/doi/pdf/10.3188/szf.2012.0304

In the meantime, I have found a few studies on medieval pass roads, travel, travel times, protection and also political games about pass crossings.
I will summarize this occasionally. af
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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by dorsetUK »

absque fenestris wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:05 pm
Previous work on the same ice core in 2017 revealed the catastrophic impact of the 14th century Black Death on metal production.
This ice study from the high Alps will surely provide other interesting and thought-provoking results in the future.
I sure hope so.
In addition to pollution from elsewhere, local mountain areas also had serious, homemade problems: such as centuries of deforestation (particularly ruthless e.g. in connection with slate quarrying), which then led to the forest protection law in 1902.
This actually reasonable law has been attacked more and more over the past few years.

Forest and Law (essay) https://szf-jfs.org/doi/pdf/10.3188/szf.2012.0304
Our Forests seem to be safe but our "Green Belt", the pretty bits around towns, are under threat - but we do need homes. It's very difficult.
In the meantime, I have found a few studies on medieval pass roads, travel, travel times, protection and also political games about pass crossings.
I will summarize this occasionally. af
af, please do, it'd be great to hear about the original 'super highway'. And isn't great to 'discover' things.

Jon.

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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by ZakGordon »

This is a blind post (in part due to my Latin being non-existent!). But i saw the mention of medieval roads and a 'super-highway' (in Switzerland/Europe) and it got me thinking on an interesting book i read recently called:

"The Ancient Paths" by Graham Robb (Picador published it).

Which is based on this guys study of the celtic peoples road and village placements with a mind to fast communications (one of the Roman writers (Pliny?) mentioned news of Roman attacks through europe arriving far in advance of the armies scouts etc) via a form of shouting (a pre-runner of 'yodelling' perhaps?) from specific places of acoustic power using people with the loudest voices etc. These places were often linked with a complex religious symmetry as well.

Anyway not Latin, but related and maybe of interest?
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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by lsemmens »

I think that this thread has moved well away from its Latin Roots and is now a fascinating overview of history. Much as Latin has spawned many words in many Languages, it has now spawned a fascinating insight into our history! :D
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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by dorsetUK »

lsemmens wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 3:52 am
I think that this thread has moved well away from its Latin Roots ....
Yeah, I know, I can't get my original question answered, with all of you going off track - what ever next. :wink:
ZakGordon wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:23 pm
This is a blind post (in part due to my Latin being non-existent!). But i saw the mention of medieval roads and a 'super-highway' (in Switzerland/Europe) and it got me thinking on an interesting book i read recently called:

"The Ancient Paths" by Graham Robb (Picador published it).

Anyway not Latin, but related and maybe of interest?
SEE - you're all off topic :roll:

Sorry all :oops:

"Ancient Paths" looks interesting, I'll add it to my 'how to say sane for the next 12 weeks' list. Mind you, I may not be able to afford it for a while, as my Aspire One D250's screen has just about had it, so I took its 2Gb RAM - yes, all of them - out and put it in my D255 which is now flying. I'd recommend that everybody doubles their RAM!

Then I cut my rather overlong hair down to rather too short. then I bought a Dell 6320 for £80 off a local website - I hate buying 'unseen', but the site is well moderated and the individual has a good rating and I've got lots of IPA for when it arrives.

Latin - what the hell are you lot on about. :shock: :D

Jon

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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by dorsetUK »

Popes vs Kings. It's too complicated - I can’t 'do' it.

To preface this, in 1054 there was the “East–West Schism” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East%E2%80%93West_Schism and the W-ern pope had to struggle to regain his power and authority.

When I first ‘looked’ at pope vs king it was in 1087 when William the Conqueror (WtC) died. He had three sons, the eldest being William Curthose, the second, William Rufus and the third Henry. Having only a half-hearted understanding, I assumed that Curthose would succeed as king of England – silly me. Inheritance was a bit of a ‘grey area’ and WtC decided that Curthose would become the duke of Normandy, Rufus, king of England and Henry would be given some cash.

Tangentally I thought, that makes Henry ‘rich’, Curthose a ‘vassal’ of the king of France, and Rufus a vassal of no-one … or … to the pope?

I tried to find some clarity, and couldn’t, concluding that it’s another thing that’s ‘way above my paygrade’. Most historian say that the king wasn’t the popes vassal. This is complicated by the fact that WtC kept 20% of England for himself, gave 55% to his subjects and 25% to ‘the church’ – which makes it the single largest landholder in the country – all watched over by the pope.

I find this very tricky but going back to 1066, did the pope support WtCs invasion? Some historians say ‘yes’, some say ‘no’, and some say, ‘maybe’.

“The Normans brought with them a conception of the power of clerics to intervene in battle using spiritual powers very similar to that of the Anglo-Saxons ... In the duke’s absence [in 1066], Normans expected the power of prayer and of relics to hold back raiders [of Normandy], and when Duke William went to war, he paid the Norman monasteries for their prayers. The Duke’s preparations for the Battle of Hastings included substantial religious components.

Even [his wife] Duchess Matilda’s pious benefactions were supposed to bring her husband aid in battle. William himself heard a mass, and carried relics on his person, while the clergy and monks accompanying the army (led by Bishops Odo and Geoffrey [of ?Montbray?]) prepared to fight with prayers through the previous night, or even “fought with prayers and counsel” ...

After Hastings, William was in no doubt about the nature of the power that had swept him to victory, against considerable odds. The founding of Battle Abbey itself is only the most famous example of the massive programme of benefactions to churches undertaken by the new king.

... the Norman Conquest of England was a military operation conducted with the supernatural help of the clergy. Victory was obtained using both temporal and spiritual weapons. Little distinction is made between them by the sources, and the victor rewarded both spiritual and temporal warriors generously.

By far the best-known instrument of divine power mobilised by Duke William for his campaign was the papal banner said to have been carried before him at Hastings. We might speculate about the likely psychological impact of such a banner, especially given the importance of the cult of St Peter in England, but in the ‘Gesta Guillelmi’s’ description, the banner was given so that “by following which he might attack the enemy with greater confidence and safety” ... Orderic [Vitalis] (who knew the Gesta Guillelmi) wrote that the banner was sent so that “by his [St Peter’s] merits he [William] might be defended from every danger. Pope Alexander’s banner was intended to have a literal effect, guarding the duke and his men against physical harm and increasing the likelihood of victory. Also, like the other instances of spiritual warfare, William rewarded this assistance, sending the Pope some of his captured booty.

The papal banner should not be seen in isolation from other papal involvement. There are the penitential articles issued by the Papal Legate Ermenfrid of Sion. These constitute the exertion of papal authority to wipe out the moral stain of the Conquest and set the seal on its legitimacy (and significantly do not extend the same privilege to English survivors). In exchange for this, [pope] Alexander II expected some sort of enhanced political relationship with England, though there has been debate as to whether this went so far as demanding that England become a papal fief. Use of high-prestige banners to control and channel Norman military power may have been part of a more general papal policy”.

---

In other descriptions - after the intial Norman onslaught, the Saxons rallied and it seemed that they would ‘win the day’. WtC unfurled the popes banner, which rallied his troops and they swept to victory.

In yet other versions - after the Saxons rallied, WtC released his cavalry, and they swept to victory.

That’s one of the problems, most historians concentrate on what they believe to be ‘facts’, and seemingly some don’t consider God to be a fact and so remove religion from their view. Some seemingly accept that this was a very religious time and so include religion because it was where their beliefs lay. To me, to understand people, don’t we have to try to understand their beliefs – whether we agree with them, or not.

However, I used that long quote above as, to me, although I’ve chosen a bit that concentrates on the religious aspect, it does show a bit of balance, “... the Norman Conquest of England was a military operation conducted with the supernatural help of the clergy. Victory was obtained using both temporal and spiritual weapons”.

‘Back then’ they believed in God and that the pope was his representative on earth – not someone to be trifled with. The Normans and the Saxons both wanted his support, the problem being that the outcome of the battle was the only proof of who God supported, and most of the remaining records were written by the winners. Religion was very important so having the popes backing was also good.

The only Anglo-Saxon source I can find is the ‘Anglo-Saxon Chronicle’ (ASC) where it says “… King Harold ... came there with a great army of English men, and met him [his brother Tosty] and [Harald Hardrada] the king [of Norway] at Stanfordbridge, and slew him and the earl Tosty, and boldly overcame all the army. And the while, William the earl landed at Hastings, on St. Michael's-day: and Harold came from the north, and fought against him before all his army had come up: and there he fell, and his two brothers, Girth and Leofwin; and William subdued this land. And he came to Westminster, and Archbishop Aldred consecrated him king, and men paid him tribute, delivered him hostages, and afterwards bought their land”.

‘Tosty’ is usually ‘Tostig’ and ‘Stanfordbridge’, ‘Stamford bridge’ - cuz we know better than the people who were writing at the time that it happened. OK, sorry, they wrote what they heard and we’ve standardised things.

Bishops were incredibly powerful and – I haven’t read this, as I only found it yesterday, but - Samuel O’Rourkes ‘Episcopal Power in Anglo-Norman England, 1066-1135’, PhD Thesis. https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/29106118.pdf I hope will expand my understanding, as eg, “Bishop Ulf of Dorchester-on-Thames came close to having his pastoral staff broken by Pope Leo IX at the council of Vercelli in 1050, as he was incapable of performing his duties, but escaped deposition by ‘giving treasure’ - presumably to the pope”.

An aside - ‘pastoral staff’. Tolkein has his ‘wizards staff’, and he was a professor of English Language and Literature. I think that the “Saurman, your staff is broken” episode is symbolic of his ‘fall from grace’ rather than a physical reduction of his power.

This needs you to register, and is jumping forwards c100 years, but Prof Bojrn Weiler https://www.academia.edu/1796551/Bishop ... _-_c._1250 provides an interesting view of Hugh, bishop of Lincoln. A Frenchman from ‘Grand Chartreuse’, near Grenoble.

“Once made bishop of Lincoln, Hugh saw no reason to mellow his stance. Soon after his election, Hugh thus ex-communicated the king’s chief forester, and he also refused to give a vacant benefice to one of Henry II’s courtiers. When summoned to court, Hugh was demonstratively ignored by the king: Henry sat in a circle surrounded by his earls and prelates, but had ordered them not to greet the bishop, and to keep their backs turned towards him. Hugh eventually forced one of the earls sitting next to the king to vacate his seat, but the monarch continued to ignore the bishop, and started stitching a leather bandage on one of his fingers. After observing this for a while, Hugh leaned over to the king, and whispered audibly that Henry looked just like his cousins at Falaise – a reference to Henry’s great-grandfather, William the Conqueror, reputedly the son of an embalmer’s daughter from Falaise, a town famous for its tanning industry. Henry was unable to maintain a stern mien, and collapsed in laughter.

Henry’s sons and successors similarly found themselves the recipients of Hugh’s firm counsel. When asked to contribute to one of Richard the Lionheart’s campaigns in France, for instance, the bishop refused. Eventually, he was called into the king’s presence, where Richard demonstratively refused to give Hugh the kiss of peace. The gesture mattered: it expressed in a very public fashion the bishop’s lack of favour, marked him out as someone who, by failing to possess the royal peace, would be unable to protect himself or his dependants. It was also eerily reminiscent of Henry II’s unwillingness less than a generation before fully to reconcile with Thomas Becket, equally expressed by the king’s refusal to offer Becket the kiss of peace. Undeterred, though, Hugh went up to the king, and started tugging at Richard’s mantle, demanding that he receive the kiss: “Kiss me!” Eventually, the king relented, not only smiling at the prelate’s insistence, but also settling their dispute. Moreover, when, subsequently, Richard went to discuss matters with Hugh, the bishop took his monarch aside and chided him for his failings: Richard did not respect his marriage vows, violated the liberty of the Church, and promoted unsuitable men to the care of souls”.

That’s my pretty sketchey ‘take’ on an incredibly important aspect of the Middle Ages. Religion provided much of our knowledge, all of our, non-violent, teaching, nearly all of out health care. If you were off on one of your pilgrimages then you could ‘stop-over’ in certain ‘houses of religion’ for the night. We paid taxes to them and they, probably, provided the only ‘fixed point’ in a rapidly changing society.

By ‘changing’, I mean that there was little certainty, except from the church.

I also guess, that the relationship between popes and kings was a largely political one – both needed each other, and when it came to battles, whoever won had the popes blessing.

But then there are Crusades. A pope says ‘let’s go and attack some non-Christians’ and hundreds of knights, and the occasional king, would trot off to kill people. Or be killed by people – which was good, because if you died ‘on Crusade’, all your sins were forgiven.

Imagine being a king when many of your top supporters went off on crusade, leaving you to run your country – such a hard life.

Jon

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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by dorsetUK »

The pope's view. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_Reform.

A new find, Benedict Wiedemann's PhD thesis - Papal overlordship and Protectio of the king, c1000 - 1300. https://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/id/eprint/1 ... 0Final.pdf

This may help with my confusion as he says - "This thesis focuses on papal overlordship of monarchs in the middle ages. It examines the nature of alliances between popes and kings which have traditionally been called ‘feudal’ or – more recently –‘protective’. Previous scholarship has assumed that there was a distinction between kingdoms under papal protection and kingdoms under papal overlordship. I argue that protection and feudal overlordship were distinct categories only from the later twelfth and early thirteenth centuries. Before then, papal-royal alliances tended to be ad hoc and did not take on more general forms.

At the beginning of the thirteenth century kingdoms started to be called ‘fiefs’ of the papacy. This new type of relationship came from England, when King John surrendered his kingdoms to the papacy in 1213. From then on this ‘feudal’ relationship was applied to the pope’s relationship with the king of Sicily. This new – more codified – feudal relationship seems to have been introduced to the papacy by the English royal court rather than by another source such as learned Italian jurists, as might have been expected.

A common assumption about how papal overlordship worked is that it came about because of the active attempts of an over-mighty papacy to advance its power for its own sake. But the people who gained from papal overlordship were those outside the papal curia who could instrumentalize papal power for their own ends. It was up to kings, regents and their councillors to decide when and whether to use papal overlordship and protection. Papal overlordship was a tool of royal more than of papal power".

So that's the blinkin' English making things difficult for me. Blinkin' English. :?

Only problem is where - just where! - am I going to find time to read it? :wink:

Jon

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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by dorsetUK »

First of all, a bit of what I can only call ‘popular’ history.

Geoffrey Chaucer, “medieval England’s greatest poet”, and his links to Dorset.

“Long before his death Chaucer had been recognized by his contemporaries as a poet without peer in this country. Only a few years afterwards, Thomas Hoccleve was to eulogize him as the ‘flour of eloquence ... this landes verray tresor and richesse’, and ‘the firste fyndere of our faire langage’, going so far in his admiration as to have Chaucer’s portrait painted on the manuscripts of his own Regement of Princes, so that the outward appearance of the master should not be lost to posterity”.

Towards the end of his life Geoffrey was “Clerk of the King’s works, Westminster, the Tower and elsewhere 12 July 1389-17 June 1391, St. George’s chapel, Windsor 12 July 1390-1.
Forester of North Petherton, Som[erset]. c.1390-c.1391, Mar.-Sept. 1399”.

He had a son, Thomas b. c1367, who had a friend, Richard Boyton. Thomas and Richard must have been great friends as Richard “was quite likely a protégé of Thomas”, and was “also acting as [Thomas] Chaucer’s lieutenant at Taunton castle”.

As Geoffrey was “Clerk of the King’s works, Westminster, the Tower and elsewhere … St. George’s chapel, Windsor”, he would have met many masons from the isle of Purbyk and many senior people who worked on major projects also visited Corfe, to check on any mining and sculpting of Purbyk marble. His son would ‘undoubtedly’ have accompanied him on such ‘away-days’, ‘probably’ taking along friends, such as Boyton, for a bit of hunting. Boyton went on to be sheriff of Dorset and Somerset in 1400.

So there you go, Geoffrey Chaucer definitely knew Purbyk and thus Dorset, which must have influenced his poetry.

What a complete and utter load of balderdash. There’s no proof that any of the ‘Chaucers’ ever visited Dorset, or that Thomas knew Boyton until they were adults – but hey!

The reason for doing that bit, is to show how easy it is to create ‘history’ where none exists. However, because Dorset hasn’t really been studied, and this may – may? - link back to the invasion of the isle of Purbyk back in 1338, I’m going to try to ‘create’ some history.

As a long way above, in 1336 there was the order to Corfe to get ready to be invaded – if they hadn’t already been - and on Sept 1st

To John de Langeford, keeper of the isle of Wight and constable of Karesbrok [Carisbrook] castle. Order to cause that castle to be provided without delay with necessary victuals as he shall see fit, by the view and testimony of lawful men of those parts. By K.

As with Purbeck, things then went a bit quiet until ‘38 when we petitioned the king due to our invasion https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov. ... r/C9440399, and in the Close Rolls of October 13th ‘38 it was announced that - To knights and other lawful men of the Isle of Wight.

Notification that the king has granted them respite until the Purification next for the arrears of their quota of the tenth and fifteenth granted by the laity, in consideration of their resistance to the armed galleys who attacked the island, and that the king has ordered the collectors in co. Southampton to cause them to have that respite. By the keeper and C.

So ‘our’ attack and the Isle of Wight one could well have been the same fleet – but there could have been two fleets, or one could have split into two.

Then on Feb 8th 1339 - To the treasurer and barons of the exchequer and to the chamberlains.

Order to account with John de Wyndesore, the king's clerk, for his expenses and wages in the following matters, allowing him 6s. ?d. a day for his wages and 12d. daily for each man at arms, and 3d. for each archer retained in the king's service by him, and to pay him what is found to be due beyond the sums which he has already received from the king, as the king appointed him and other lieges to arrest ships in ports and places in the liberty of the Cinque Ports, and to cause them to be prepared for war and supplied with men and other necessaries to set out against the Scots and their allies who proposed to invade the realm, and to see that all of the Isle of Wight were supplied with suitable arms and arrayed …

Well, here we are, probably being invaded and under threat of a ‘big one’, so we have to march off northwards to ‘put down’ those ‘pesky’ Scots, while the French and their allies raid and harass us on the south coast. I don’t want to leave Dorset, but to be fair, in 1338 and ‘39, Anglesey and North Wales were fortified against the threat of a combined French-Scots invasion, and the Isle of Man may even have come under French-Scots control.

Not quite as dramatic, but on October 20th ‘39 – To Thomas de Baddaby, the king’s clerk.
Order to pay 6L 13s 4d of the money which the king caused to be delivered to him from the treasury, to Walter de Wydecombe, constable of Corf castle, upon the wages of the archers in garrison there, by indenture without delay. By C.

Phew – Corfe was ‘armed up to the teeth’ in order to ride out and protect we peasants of Purbeck. Sadly not. Where records exist, during times of war, Corfe usually had a garrison of twelve archers, and possibly some of “the men of Corfe”. I’ve no idea what the women and children were doing.

Whether the French ever got as far as Corfe is unknown, but wouldn’t it be great - no, sorry - terrible if they had, and managed to do some damage, May 23rd 1340 - To the sheriff of Dorset and Somerset.

Order to amend the walls of Corf castle by the advice and ordaining of Walter de Rodeneye, John de Gouyz and Robert Martyn, appointed for this, and to buy 20 quarters of wheat, 20 quarters of malt, 10 quarters of beans and 2 tuns of salt.

The walls may just have been falling down as castles weren’t maintained overly well, but it could have been a mini-invasion and the re-stocking certainly suggests that there was still a threat of invasion.

Edward III dealt with this – oh no he didn’t – by popping over to Flanders. The Flemish didn’t like the French, and vice-versa, but did like us – probably due to our antagonism towards France and that we had lots of Sheep and they had lots of Weavers. In order to ensure their loyalty they wanted Edward to formally declare war – so he did – and went bankrupt! We’re not allowed to talk politics - which is my cowardly way of saying that's it's far too complex for me - but if you fancy some, then please read-up on England/Flanders/France and all the other competing forces - it’s mind boggling.

Back home, Oct 28th ‘41 there was a grant for life to Ralph de Ufford of the keeping of the castle of Corf, and either things moved slowly, or we were invaded again as on 20th Feb ‘42 there was a commission to Henry Peverel, Robert de Gages and Stephen Fraunceys to take an inquisition in the county of Dorset touching an information that in the castle of Corfe there are many defects which prior to and in the time which Thomas de Cary was constable of that castle and that many persons as well of those parts as from elsewhere have entered the warren belonging to the castle and hunted therein, taking and carrying away hares, rabbits and pheasants and perpetrated other trespasses.

from elsewhere, seems to be flexible and can mean from the next town, county, maybe even country. Or maybe it was just ‘we peasants’ trying to stay alive.

Although I’ve gone over old ground, I’ve attempted to ‘flesh it out a bit’ – for what’s about to come.

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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by dorsetUK »

From c1300 the weather began to deteriorate and we entered the ‘Wet n Windy age’,

1315-’17, up to 15% of us died. Followed by the ‘great cattle murrain’, where any number of cows died, and the effect of that went for quite some time.

1321-2, The Despenser Wars – or a Civil War.

From the end of 1326 and in to ‘27, Edward II was deposed, and England was run by an underage king, his Council, his mother and her paramour – Roger Mortimer. Oct ‘30 Edward III took full control.

1331 to - who can say? - England and Scotland try to establish a new border.

1337, without actually declaring war, Edward so offends the king of France that he does. As France had a treaty with Scotland – the auld alliance – things got interesting.

Although this is all rather depressing, it seems that during the 1330s and 40s, generally, things seemed to be improving. The weather seems to have settled down and the population began rising again and looking at consumption patterns, manorial accounts of food and drink payments for harvest workers seem to reveal that well before the Black Death there was a marked shift from them having to eat ‘lesser grains’ to more fresh meat and wheat.

In 1342 Edward invaded Brittany, returning to Melcombe Regis, and his journey home can be traced. It took just under three weeks and he sailed via the island of Le Ragg (13th Feb), Le Blank Sabloini (14th), Congueste (16th), Port Crouidum (19th), then back to Blank Sabloini (23rd). He was at sea on the last day of February before sailing into Melcombe Regis on 1st March 1342.

The king, of course, always had transportation arrangements by utilising royal ships, but how did the rest of the force make it home?

Returning to Wool and Woolbridge. It’s been there for quite some time, as in 1343 there was an Inquisition at Dorcestre on the Monday after St. Valentine, “The bridge of Wollebrigge is, and always has been, maintained and repaired by alms, and nobody is bound to maintain or repair it.”

Luckily, Dorset County Council have taken it over. https://www.wessexarch.co.uk/our-work/w ... ge-dorset
Edward III at Corfe July 6th, Aug 6th and Aug 8th - 15th 1343.

I wonder where he was on the 7th, unless he had a day off?

In 1344 Edward III directed the mayor and bailiffs of Dover to permit Gerard de Noiale, prior of Holme, to cross the Channel in order to visit the Roman court “for the correction of his soul”.

Holme Priory established c1130 by the de Lincoln family – most of it, now long gone.

A king versus pope bit, from 1344 when Edward Prohibited “all ecclesiastical persons from all proceedings in derogation of the rights of the king and his crown” or of his friends, by using “bulls, letters or monitions … brought from the court of Rome, contrary to ordinances made in the Parliament of Edward I at Carlisle and the last Parliament at Westminster.”

Muscles being flexed. I, king Edward III, am more powerful than the pope, as my grandfather, Edward I, told you.

I can’t find any details about that but it seems to say that Edward III thinks he’s in charge and he won’t listen to the popes rulings over who has control of which church. Edward seems to be exerting his power in day-to-day issues, but I wonder if it could extend as far as the appointment of bishops?

We locals were being a bit naughty, and on Feb 5 1344 there was a commission to William de Burton, John de Malkesfeld, William de Thweyt and Robert Baret to seek out and, probably destroy, those “who entered the king’s free chace of Corfe and Purbygge* … hunted therein, felled his trees there and carried away the trees with divers goods called ‘wrek’ which had washed ashore and should pertain to the king by reason of his lordship.”

I think that’s one of the first records I’ve seen with a modern spelling of ‘Corfe’ - but ‘Purbygge’ - oh boy.

Also in 1344, Robert fitz Payn, Robert fitz Payn ‘the younger’, John Chideock and John Wake were appointed as ‘keepers of the peace’ in Dorset.

Interesting point here. The last Robert fitz Payn died c1330 and Ela, his only known child, married Robert de Grey and they only had daughters. So how can we have Robert fitz Payn and, presumably, his son – ‘the younger’ - alive in 1344?

Robert de Grey wasn’t a ‘first born son’ so didn’t stand to inherit much from his dad, Richard de Grey of Codnor. By marrying Joan, the daughter of ‘Baron’ Robert fitz Payn, he made a good marriage, inheriting the fitz Payn ‘barony’. Because of that he changed his name to Robert fitz Payn and, presumably, did father a son who must have died in what’s to come, or one of the many wars going on – or maybe he just scratched himself, got an infection and died.

... Enrolment of indenture made between Walter de Park of Upton Skydemor and Sir Robert fitz Payn, son of Richard le Grey of Codenore ...

Here’s another bit that I can’t find any further details of, but in 1344 Edward III wanted a chat with most of his sheriffs. Presumably as there are so many of them he did it in two chunks, with: Norfolk, Suffolk, Kent, Middlesex, Buckingham, Surrey and Sussex, Southampton, Wilts, Oxford and Berks, Northampton, Rutland, Cambridge and Huntingdon making up the first tranche and: Lincoln, Leicester and Warwick, Gloucester, Hereford, Dorset and Somerset, Devon, Cornwall, Salop and Stafford, the second. I suppose it could be a vague east west split, but where’s the north?

Just a note – when you get eg, “Surrey and Sussex”, that’s because they shared a sheriff.

On 19 February ‘46, Walter de Warwick, sergeant-at-arms, and John atte Forde were told to deliver 200 archers from Dorset and Somerset to Calais as soon as possible. They were part of a large-scale ‘levy’ of over 4,000 archers from twenty-nine counties who were to be ready by Easter.

The sheriff of Dorset and Somerset was told to get a long list of different foods, as well as 40 cart loads of iron, 200 iron horse-shoes and 2,000 nails and deliver them to Corfe, paying for them with the king's money, or if this did not suffice, with tallies.

Which seems to mean that if the sheriff didn’t have enough cash, then he could raise a tax in order to pay for the goods. Now, now, not everybody was corrupt!

I’m pretty sure that has to do with the siege of Calais, which we eventually won, and Crecy, which we also won, was also in ‘46.

In the Close rolls of 15th March 1346;

To Thomas Gary, sheriff of Somerset and Dorset. Order to deliver all the victuals which the king ordered him to have purveyed for the munition of Corf castle, to the constable of that castle or to him who supplies his place by indenture.

And, a little strangely, on 26th March, in the Patent rolls;

To Thomas Cary, sheriff of Somerset and Dorset. Order to deliver all the victuals which the king ordered him to have purveyed for the munition of Corf castle, to the constable of that castle or to whom who supplies his place by indenture.

The Close rolls were private orders and the Patent rolls were the public ones. However, Corfe was kept stocked and so probably ‘manned’, which suggests that Edward was still worried.

1347 seems to have been a quiet year, but in 1348 Bindon Abbey was so in debt due to frequent raiding by foreigners ‘coming upon them unawares’, as well as by the hospitality they extended to other mariners, that it faced ruin. Also in 1348, just up the road, the king granted a licence to the abbess and convent of Tarrant Keynes to cut down 200 acres of under-wood in their demesne on their petition setting forth that their house and possessions in the county of Dorset had been burned and destroyed by an invasion of the king’s enemies in those parts.

Ooh, foreigners and invasion. Both Bindon and Tarrant Abbeys are inland, but Bindon's on a major river - the Frome - and Tarrant Keynes is just off one - the Stour - but is on the Tarrant. The Tarrant is a ‘winterbourne’, and so supposed to be dry in the summer, but does feed into the Stour, near another lovely old bridge. https://www.dorsetlife.co.uk/2019/01/do ... petisbury/

I wondered if that suggests planned foreign invasion? Could the foreigners have sailed up the rivers, pillaging as they went? Or could they have established a local base? Or were they aided by disaffected locals?

Probably stretching things a bit too far, but in 1324 there was an inquisition into Wareham priory and it was worth £27 14s 6d. This was repeated in 1337 - £39 16s 2d, but in 1387 it was only worth £10 - I began to wonder if it had suffered attacks as well?

In 1354, Wareham’s new prior, Robert de Gascur or Gascourt, made a complaint. According to the ‘writ of inquiry’ issued the following year, the late prior William de Noys had grievously abused his trust; he had consumed and entirely dissipated the goods and chattels of the house, had alienated its property, and transferred abroad a large sum of money acquired by such alienations; the present head, in consequence, found he could not get a sufficient living for himself and his fellow monks, could neither pay the king the annual farm of 40s or 6 marks, nor restore the buildings which his predecessor had allowed to get out of repair, and he prayed the crown to appoint a remedy.

Bringing in some - small ‘p’ – politics, would the locals admit that they’d helped the invaders? No, of course not. It was easier to blame someone who was dead rather than admit to any weakness, or collusion. There again, the locals could have told the truth. However, had everything been eaten, drunk and sold, with the money sent overseas. Could the Black Death have had a huge effect? Or had Wareham been attacked and ransacked, or bought off its attackers, or even housed them – or the local militia?

In early and mid 1348 there did seem to be some ‘unrest’ and just as one example, on Jun 1st;

Commission of oyer and terminer to William de Shareshull, Thomas atte Fen and Robert Sifrewast, on complaint by Edward, prince of Wales, duke of Cornwall and earl of Chester, that Robert Fitz Payn and others broke the tank of his mill at Fordyngton, co. Dorset, whereby the water ran out so that he lost the profit of the mill to the value of 20L and assaulted his men and servants there whereby he lost their service for a great time.

Sadly, I can’t find an outcome. “Fordyngton” is now Fordington, the east part of Dorchester, down by the Frome - low lying. The farm of, or by, the ford? There’s a bridge there now but nowhere near as good as the others.

Also in June 11th 1348 there was a commission to Thomas Cary, sheriff of Dorset and Somerset, to select ??? man at arms and 120 [archers?] in those counties, and array the same to be ready to go to defend the islands of Gerneseye, Jereseye, Serk and Aureneye, when summoned by John Mautravers le piere, keeper of those islands, at the king's charges out of the issues of those islands.

Which takes us back to the condemned traitor, John Mautravers le piere.

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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by PhilAypee »

ZakGordon wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:23 pm
This is a blind post (in part due to my Latin being non-existent!). But i saw the mention of medieval roads and a 'super-highway' (in Switzerland/Europe) and it got me thinking on an interesting book i read recently called:

"The Ancient Paths" by Graham Robb (Picador published it).

Which is based on this guys study of the celtic peoples road and village placements with a mind to fast communications (one of the Roman writers (Pliny?) mentioned news of Roman attacks through europe arriving far in advance of the armies scouts etc) via a form of shouting (a pre-runner of 'yodelling' perhaps?) from specific places of acoustic power using people with the loudest voices etc. These places were often linked with a complex religious symmetry as well.

Anyway not Latin, but related and maybe of interest?
If you look on YouTube you'll find a few British programmes of Tony Robinson walking some of those paths, mostly in England. 😎
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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by ZakGordon »

Cool! Thanks for the tip Phil, i do love me some Baldrick doing history :)
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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by dorsetUK »

PhilAypee wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:37 pm
If you look on YouTube you'll find a few British programmes of Tony Robinson walking some of those paths, mostly in England. 😎
ZakGordon wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:45 am
Cool! Thanks for the tip Phil, i do love me some Baldrick doing history :)
This https://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/ar ... nloads.cfm could be interpreted as a bit more on ‘Tony’s Travels’, or, ‘Bustling along with Baldric’, but doesn’t have to be.

The Botch.

Europe was hit in 1347 and in June, July or August 1348 the Botch as we knew it, or the Great Mortality descended on England, probably arriving at Melcombe Regis, and hung around for up to two, maybe even three, years.

The dates on this may be a little off, but y’know,
Image

William of Malmesbury said that it arrived in England, about the time of the Translation of St Thomas.

That’s about July 7th.

Possibly a little strangely, or perhaps ‘news’ travelled slowly, but on July 18 ‘48 Thomas de Chysenhale and Thomas Florak were appointed to arrest sufficient mariners from Dorset, Southampton and Devon, to man twelve ships arrested for the king's service in the port of Southampton.

But I’ve no idea why, or if it actually happened.

The first recorded death was the priest of West Chickerell in Sept ‘48. In W Dorset, between 17 Oct and 20 Nov, eight churches can be identified which lost their priests: Toller Porcorum, Litton Cheney, Askerswell, Maiden Newton, Hooke, Allington, Broad Windsor and Bradpole, which actually lost two in three months. Abbotsbury Abbey was the first monastery attacked as it’s abbot was dead before 3 Dec.

On the other side of the county, the prior of the ‘alien’* priory of Wareham had to be replaced and the king appointed a successor on 4 November. It’s also said that the Black Death appeared to have hit Wareham hard, with seven priests recorded as dying in 1348 alone – perhaps the priory was hit particularly badly. By 18 Nov the churches of Bridport, Tyneham, Lulworth, and Cerne were all ‘vacant’. A table of the churches for Dorset during this period shows that the mortality was at its highest between Nov and Feb. From 8 Oct ‘48 to Jan ‘49, the crown, appointed no less than thirty ‘livings’ in the diocese of Salisbury, the greater number of which belonged to Dorset.

* not English.

At first I thought that the abbot of Bindon, William de Comenore, may have escaped as on 19 Apr ‘48, To the mayor and bailiffs of Dover.

Order to permit the abbot of Bynedon in co. Dorset, who is about to set out to the Roman court, by the king's licence, for certain affairs concerning that abbey, to cross from that port with his moderate household and his reasonable expenses in gold, to the town of Caleys, provided that he make no apportum and take no gold or silver out of the realm beyond his said expenses.

However, in 1350 Bindon had a new abbot, as ‘Philip’ is recorded as such.

In most of the various ‘takes’ on the Black Death, the Isle of Purbeck seems to have escaped remarkably lightly. But on scouring the records, on Nov 27 1348, Presentation of Richard de Bery to the church of Corfe.

The incredibly important use of Purbeck marble went into decline c1350, being replaced by Alabaster. One day I was chatting with a senior employee of the local National Trust, and she wonders if the Black Death did actually have a large effect amongst those who ‘worked’. Pondering on that, I can imagine the: knights, lords and priests, grabbing their families and supplies and locking themselves in Corfe, whilst around them the plague raged.

The problem with that though is that there’s no evidence, but looking at it ‘behaviourally’, in Jan ‘49, Ralph of Shrewsbury, the bishop of Bath and Wells retired to his house at Wiveliscombe, near Taunton. Very kindly, he posted a letter to all the priests in his diocese saying that it was their ‘duty to provide for the salvation of souls’. About the poor and their final confessions, he said, 'If they are sick and on the point of death and cannot secure the services of a priest, they should make confession to each other and if no man is present then even to a woman'. GASP.

Bishop Ralph did not even venture as far as Yeovil until December 1349, when things were probably returning to normal.

This next bit is entirely ‘possible’, maybe ‘probable’, which doesn’t stop it being entirely horrible.

“Given that the mortality associated with the Black Death was extraordinarily high and selective, the medieval epidemic might have powerfully shaped patterns of health and demography in the surviving population, producing a post-Black Death population that differed in many significant ways, at least over the short term, from the population that existed just before the epidemic. By targeting frail people of all ages, and killing them by the hundreds of thousands within an extremely short period of time, the Black Death might have represented a strong force of natural selection and removed the weakest individuals on a very broad scale within Europe.”

All I'd say is that most elderly poor people could, by modern standards, have been frail, as they'd grown up during a time of general starvation, and the young may have been more susceptible anyway.

Before the Black Death, it’s reckoned that c15% of us died under 10. c30%, between 10 and 20. c35% between 20 and 40, leaving 20% of us to live beyond 40.

The figures do change after the Black Death, when childhood remained very dangerous as there was little change, but ‘only’ 20 to 22% of us died between 10 and 20, and ‘only’ about 20% between 20 and 40, leaving nearly 40% of us to age and wither. Um, grow old gracefully.

Life went on, but maybe not very peacefully, as in July ‘49, Robert Fitz Payn, Richard de Turbervill, chivaler, Robert Martyn, chivaler, John de Brudeport of Byre and John de Mundene were given a ‘Commission of the peace, in the county of Dorset.’

It was unusual to appoint six commissioners – was there a lot of peace that needed keeping? Or when so many people were dying do you appoint six commissioners when three or four would normally do?

Or were they all off to their second homes, as it appears that many wanted to leave England and on Nov 20 ‘48, To the sheriff of Kent.

Order to cause proclamation to be made that no earl, baron, knight, esquire or other man at arms, shall presume to cross out of England to parts beyond without the king's special order and licence, upon pain of forfeiture. By K.

The like to the following, to wit; The sheriff of Dorset and Somerset, Cornwall, Essex, Southampton, London, Surrey and Sussex, Devon, Norfolk and Suffolk, Lincoln.

Lock down. Oh, what does that remind me of?

John Matravers, son of John Matravers le piere, died in 1348 and so could have died of the Black Death, but in November ‘48 he was ‘going abroad on the king's service’, so he could have been involved in a shipwreck and drowned, or been killed by ‘wreckers’, of could have died doing some deed for his king, or picked up the Black Death in foreign climes – maybe in the Channel Islands where his father was ‘Governor’* - but possibly absent, or locked up in a castle as Edward III wrote to him that, “By reason of the mortality among the people and fishing folk of these islands, which here as elsewhere has been so great, our rent for the fishing, which has been yearly paid us, cannot be now obtained without the impoverishing and excessive oppression of those fishermen still left”.

EDIT * I just looked it up - he was appointed on July 16 '48. END OF EDIT.

“It’s thought that the Black Death was responsible for ending the long period of continuous habitation of Sark, around 1348”.

It’s said that, in Jersey, 8 out of the 10 parishes lost their priest. At Tournai, in densely populated Flanders, it was reported that, “no one, rich, middling or poor, was safe … and certainly there were many deaths among the parish priests and chaplains who heard confessions and administered the sacraments, and also among the parish clerks and those who visited the sick with them.”

In the chronicle of the Cistercian abbey of Louth Park (Lincolnshire), a monk said, “In the year of the Lord 1349 the hand of Almighty God struck the human race a deadly blow … This stroke felled Christians, Jews and infidels alike. It killed confessor and penitent together. In many places it did not leave a fifth of the people alive.”

When the Black Death abated isn’t precisely known, but the king obviously thought it was over by 8 Oct ‘49 as Martin de Ixnyng, clerk and controller of the work in the palace of Westminster and the Tower of London and Robert Esshyng, ‘mason’, were appointed to get stone from Purbyk, Porteland, Birelond*, ‘and elsewhere’. It was to be brought to London with ‘all speed’, and although implied in many earlier records, by the use of ‘arrest’, here there’s no doubt. Ixnyng and Esshyng were given the “power to imprison all persons found rebellious herein.”

By Mar 10 1350 it was probably over, or at least mainly over, as Robert de Essbyngg – oh, blinkin’ ‘ell – Esshyng or Essbyngg – the same person? Probably.

Sorry, one of them, was appointed of to take workmen and stonemasons to dig stones in the quarries of Abbotesbury and Wynesbache**, co. Dorset, and Bere, co. Devon, for some works in the palace of Westminster, and carriage for the stone to the sea; by view and testimony of the sheriffs of those counties, such workmen and carriage to be paid for out of the issues of the counties and indentures of the payments to be made between the sheriffs and Robert; and to have the stone brought thence by sea to the said palace.

Aaargh - medieval ‘red-tape’.

* Birelond. Probably Bere Ferrers in Devon. EDIT: IDIOT, no it isn't. MORON. End of edit.
** Wynesbache. Probably the now disused, Windsbatch Quarry, Upwey, nr Weymouth.

Although Melcombe Regis is probably rightly considered* as the most likely entry point of the Great Mortality, I wonder if S Dorset may, in general, also be guilty. There was trade at: Lyme, Bridport, Melcombe, Wareham and Poole, we had ‘pirates’ sailing up the Frome from Wareham and up the Stour from Christchurch - where there would have been pilgrims and trade as well.

*Unless you live somewhere else by the sea and are ‘scrawling-off’ a local history.

“The second visitation of the plague in 1361 was hardly less severe, the list of churches [needing priests] for the last six months of that year being especially heavy.”

“There were further outbreaks of the plague in Britain in 1381, 1390, 1405, and every few years until 1665, since when it has hardly returned to England.”

Possible evidence of the return in 1381/2,

The Abbess and convent of Shaftesbury to the King and council …. they are so ruined by pestilences among their tenants, which have killed almost all of them, by murrain among their cattle at various times in all their possessions, and by other charges which necessity forces them to bear from day to day, they will find it very hard to get to the end of the year without endangering themselves to their creditors …. It pleases the king that this petition be granted, on the advice of his council.

Assessment.

“The fourteenth-century pandemic accelerated this process of Schumpeterian 'creative destruction', by undermining the powers of lords and greater towns and by facilitating the development of more powerful states. Supported by social groups whose bargaining powers were strengthened by the shortage of labour and which stood to gain from lower feudal levies and weaker jurisdictional monopolies, aspiring rulers increased the jurisdictional integration of their territories and began incorporating new ones, made markets more competitive, stimulated commercialisation and set the stage for the long sixteenth-century boom.

…. Rising consumption is well attested for meat, cheese, butter, beer and, in Mediterranean countries, wine, olive oil, fruit and vegetables. (Some things never change.)

Probate inventories, dowries, and archaeological excavations indicate that consumption of cheap manufactures (cloth, crockery, wooden utensils) also increased significantly.

Evidence of increased commercialisation can be found in the growth across late medieval Europe of rural manufacture, particularly of cloth but also of crockery, glassware and pewter.

Evidence of product invention and innovation is harder to come by and has attracted less attention. Examples include the mass diffusion of linen underwear (whose effects for public health should not be underestimated), the invention of transportable hard cheese (caciocavallo and parmesan) in Italy, the development of herring and pilchard preservation in north-western Europe, the selection of higher quality wines identified by their place of origin, and the widespread diffusion of plants of Islamic origin (indigo, rice, spinach, sugar, artichokes, probably eggplants) that had been little more than garden curiosities before the Black Death.”

It’s also said that there was more road maintenance and that the growth of markets and fairs, including job fairs, show growth and choice.

More good news, Aug 28 1348, To the sheriff of Dorset for the time being.

Order every year to Sheen manor [some poorly scanned/copied words] to Richard Pupplington the king's Serjeant, one of the foresters of Purbyk forest, 6d a day for life; as the king is informed that he has served the late king and the king more than forty years, travailing in the late king's wars, and is one of the oldest archers of the crown, and that he has no means of living save by the king's service, wherefore the king has granted him 6d a day for life, as he had in the late king's time.

Richard was the first of quite a few, who were ‘pensioned off’ to look after the forest of Purbyk.

Should you read that Purbeck was a ‘warren’ - most of it was, but the king kept a bit as ‘forest’, within which his law was even more absolute than it was in the ‘warren’. In theory, if you were caught doing something in the ‘warren’, then normal law applied, but if you were caught in the ‘forest’, then your outlook wouldn’t have been too rosy.
Last edited by dorsetUK on Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by dorsetUK »

How to cure the ‘plague’.

Nice smells. Beware, this only works if you haven’t contracted the plague just yet. Surround yourself with “nice smells”. Yes, it was wholeheartedly advised that people should carry flowers or herbs with them in their jackets pockets, or somewhere by their faces so the air they smell would be pleasant. This was suggested as they believed that the illness was transmitted through the airways. Remember, “Ring a Ring o Roses”? Supposedly the song could have dated to olden days, and it seems possible that it could have been sung during any of the many plague infestations known to have taken place in Europe.

However, as an interesting counterpart to the recommendation of carrying nice smells, many people in Europe actually moved and lived in the sewers :shock: Their reasoning seems to have been that if it smells bad in the sewers already, then it couldn’t get any worse …

Crushed emeralds. This would have only worked if you were wealthy, of course. Apparently, emeralds were smashed into a fine powder that then would be mixed with food or drinks, just like you may do these days with your vitamin supplements. I guess that it would have been as likely to kill you as much as prevent the disease.

That goes as far as preventing the illness. Now if you are already ill, you might as well try some of these remedies as suggested by expert Johny Wilkes ...

Blood letting: everything was fixed in medieval times (and even sometimes well into the modern period) by drawing some blood. Practitioner will apply leeches to cause the bleeding, but sometimes they will use the more brutal way of cutting off skin and draining the blood from the open wound into a bowl.

Cover your buboes - think 'oozing sores' :cry: with eg, it was believed that treacle would help the sores, but only if it was at least 10 years old?! Other things, usually seen as common treatment for other wounds eg, Urine was advised, supposedly because of its ammonia content – but I doubt if they knew what ammonia was back then. Or, a good rub of tree resin, flower roots and faeces would also help the buboes.

Perhaps the ‘creative idea award’, should go to – ta da - The Live Chicken.

An English doctor, by the name of Thomas Vicary, suggested that a live chicken should be tied to a sick persons body so it would be touching their buboes, but there was a condition - the chicken needed to have its bottom shaved.

So, there you go - nip out to your (English) chicken coop, choose you chicken, make sure your razor is nice and sharp, and don’t be surprised if you’re told to cluck off. :wink:

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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by RollyShed »

dorsetUK wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:33 pm
Cover your buboes - think 'oozing sores'
Merriam-Webster dictionary - bubo - an inflammatory swelling of a lymph gland especially in the groin

As an aside, I've been copying and pasting dorsetUK's story into a doc, dating each "episode" (posting) so I can check I've not missed one.

Thank you, keep it up.

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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by RollyShed »

Slightly off thread, apologies dorsetUK. "Britain's Ancient Tracks" as previously mentioned. You might think being on the opposite of the world we're (me) in a different universe. How wrong.

Last night's episode of "Britain's Ancient Tracks" was across Dartmoor. Abbots Way, Lych Way, Buckfast Abbey etc.

There was a film, a 3 decades ago -
The Navigator: A Mediaeval Odyssey (1988)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Navig ... al_Odyssey
About a man in the middle ages in the midlands, caught the fever and in bed had a nightmare / dream. He thought it was real but... The village and around had to dig. They kept digging and went right thorough the earth and came out in 20th century Auckland, New Zealand (OK a nightmare!!!).

They wandered around seeing it and then he woke up..... in the middle ages again.

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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by dorsetUK »

RollyShed wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:51 pm
Slightly off thread, apologies dorsetUK. "Britain's Ancient Tracks" as previously mentioned. You might think being on the opposite of the world we're (me) in a different universe. How wrong.

Last night's episode of "Britain's Ancient Tracks" was across Dartmoor. Abbots Way, Lych Way, Buckfast Abbey etc.
I haven't been down there since the last century, but I loved the whole area. I've just downloaded that episode - hope it's a good un.
There was a film, a 3 decades ago -
The Navigator: A Mediaeval Odyssey (1988)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Navig ... al_Odyssey
About a man in the middle ages in the midlands, caught the fever and in bed had a nightmare / dream. He thought it was real but... The village and around had to dig. They kept digging and went right thorough the earth and came out in 20th century Auckland, New Zealand (OK a nightmare!!!).

They wandered around seeing it and then he woke up..... in the middle ages again.
That sounds interesting, but I haven't found it from a 'reputable' source, that I'm prepared to give money to. Another medieval film is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death_(film) which is 'tricky' to find, and grim to watch. As is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arn_%E2%8 ... ht_Templar.

But when you've got time on your hands. :wink:

PS - What's this thread about :lol:

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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by dorsetUK »

RollyShed wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:51 pm
Slightly off thread, apologies dorsetUK. "Britain's Ancient Tracks" as previously mentioned. You might think being on the opposite of the world we're (me) in a different universe. How wrong.

Last night's episode of "Britain's Ancient Tracks" was across Dartmoor. Abbots Way, Lych Way, Buckfast Abbey etc.
I haven't been down there since the last century, but I loved the whole area. I've just downloaded that episode - hope it's a good un.
There was a film, a 3 decades ago -
The Navigator: A Mediaeval Odyssey (1988)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Navig ... al_Odyssey
About a man in the middle ages in the midlands, caught the fever and in bed had a nightmare / dream. He thought it was real but... The village and around had to dig. They kept digging and went right thorough the earth and came out in 20th century Auckland, New Zealand (OK a nightmare!!!).

They wandered around seeing it and then he woke up..... in the middle ages again.
That sounds interesting, but I haven't found it from a 'reputable' source, that I'm prepared to give money to. Another medieval film is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death_(film) which is 'tricky' to find, and grim to watch. As is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arn_%E2%8 ... ht_Templar.

But when you've got time on your hands. :wink:

PS - What's this thread about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojrtwXqqc6g :lol:

Edited to sort out my useless use of quote unquote.
Last edited by dorsetUK on Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by dorsetUK »

I've just watched Mr Robinson trekking across Dartmoor, and it was very enjoyable and 'sparked off' a few very nice memories.

On Friday 17th I mentioned that in 1349, miners from Purbyk, Porteland and Birelond ‘and elsewhere’, were arrested to provide stone for Westminster palace.

I then said, Birelond? Probably Bere Ferrers in Devon.

I might have been wrong there.

OK, I was wrong.

When I saw ‘Birelond’ I thought “yeah, that’ll be the stone quarry down at Beer in Devon, http://www.beerquarrycaves.co.uk/ and it probably was. I then made the mistake of thinking – Bere, mining …. Bere Ferrers! …. Yeah, there was a lot of mining going on there. So I jumped to the wrong conclusion.

Today I was checking my records about ‘arrests’ and found that back in 1295, loads of miners were ‘arrested’ to go to Bere and mine silver. That was Bere Ferrers. Silly me.

This mentions “Bere Ferrers or Birland” so maybe it is an easy mistake to make – he said, in his most defensive manner. :oops:

“Silver bearing ores have been worked on the Bere Ferrers or Birland peninsula, between the Tamar and Tavy rivers south of Tavistock, for nearly six centuries. By the middle of the 19th century there were at least a dozen mines, some consolidated into larger setts. The majority of which worked silver-lead deposits found in north-south crosscourses. Two of those crosscourses, at South Hooe (Tamar Silver-Lead) and Cleave (South Tamar Consols), proved particularly rich whilst another to the east, north of Lopwell, was of only marginal economic importance. However, only the deposits on the crosscourse north from Cleave to Goldstreet were known to the medieval miner and worked extensively from 1292 to the end of the 15th century. By the early part of the 14th century there were four mines at work, South, Middle, Fershull and the Old Mine.

Working of silver-bearing ores in the medieval period was in the hands of the Crown which held the prerogative on all precious metals plus copper and tin. Initially the mines at Bere Ferrers were worked directly by the Crown but after 1350 they were granted on lease to outside interests, with the Crown retaining a royalty and right of pre-emption on the produce.

The miners themselves held none of the customary rights enjoyed by the tinners of Devon and Cornwall or lead miners on Mendip and elsewhere. If necessary they were pressed into service and worked under the direct control of Crown officers or the lessee. An initial lack of adequate local expertise in mining and smelting meant a workforce from areas as far as North Wales, the Derbyshire Peak, Mendip, the Forest of Dean, and Cornwall* was assembled in south Devon, bringing with them techniques suited to less complex ore deposits. It was only with experimentation, particularly in smelting, that processes adequate to the silver bearing ores were developed.

Known workable deposits of silver-bearing ores were a limited resource and the Devon mines, at Bere Ferrers and Combe Martin, dominated 'English' production from the late 13th century until new mines were opened up in mid Wales in the late 16th century. Output peaked in the early years, 1297 and 1306, but even then only at a little over 23,000 ozs per annum. Average production was around a tenth of that figure. Nevertheless, the demand for silver was such that the mines remained at the forefront of technological advances throughout the medieval period.”

* And Dorset – why do we always get forgotten!

dorsetUK
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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by dorsetUK »

William de Monatgu, or Montague, or as I prefer, Montacute, was Edward III’s ‘favourite’, also, the earl of Salisbury, and he met "Black Agnes" during her defence of Dunbar Castle.

Patrick de Dunbar, the earl of Dunbar and March, was usually on the ‘English’ side, but he had also ‘turned out’ for the Scots. In 1337 he was a friendly with David Bruce, king of Scotland.

Dunbar castle was under the control of his wife, Agnes, who was the daughter of Thomas Randolph, Earl of Moray, and sister of John Randolph. She was also a grandniece of Robert Bruce and called “Black Agnes” because of her dark complexion.

Her coastal fortress of Dunbar, which in Gaelic means “the fort on the height”, was considered key to the control of the surrounding district. It was here that the English decided to concentrate their attack, as the castle’s capture would ease pressure on East Lothian. On Jan 13, 1338, William de Montacute commenced the most famous siege in the history of Dunbar castle. It would last for 22 weeks. At any one time 50 miners and 50 carpenters were employed. Siege engines were brought from Berwick and the Tower of London, and two Genoese ships armed with crossbowmen blockaded from the sea. Agnes led the castle’s defences. She was said to have "showed manly feelings” when she ridiculed the invaders with "witty gestures and words".

In response to a request to surrender she replied:

‘Of Scotland’s King I haud my house
He pays me meat and fee
And I will keep my gude auld house
While my house will keep me.’

Agnes’s brother, John Randolph, the last male of his name and the third Earl of Moray had been captured on the Scottish border. He was brought before the castle walls. It was threatened that he would be drawn between the tails of two horses and then beheaded if the castle did not surrender. Black Agnes replied, “If ye do that, then I shall be heir to the earldom of Moray.” In the face of that, the English were forced to take him back to captivity in Nottingham.

Montacute set up his catapults and hurled massive stones against the walls. Agnes stood on the battlements, and when a great stone struck the stones just below her, she scornfully ordered one of her handmaidens to wipe off the marks of the impact with her clean handkerchief, gaily observing that it was scarcely gentlemanly on the part of Salisbury to throw dust in a lady’s eyes.

The earl, with infinite pains, advanced to the foot of the walls with an immense shed covering battering rams, called a sow. Agnes tauntingly cried out, “Beware, Montacute, for farrow shall thy sow!” and caused to be hurled an immense fragment of rock using her catapult. This utterly demolished the roof of the shed, and caused the men inside who remained alive to scatter in all directions, thus speedily fulfilling the prophecy.

Having exhausted his resources in this direction, the earl tried the power of gold, and attempted to bribe the keeper of the gate to open to him in the night. The canny guardian agreed and took the purse, but then laid the whole story before the countess. At the appointed time Salisbury and his men approached and found the gate indeed open. The Earl pressed forward to enter first, but John Copeland, one of his officers, rushed before him and reached the courtyard. As he did so the grating of the gate fell, but failed to trap the earl. Agnes was watching from a high tower, and jeeringly exclaimed, “So, Montacute! We had hoped to-night to have received the noble Salisbury as our guest, and consulted with him on the best means to defend a Scottish fortress against an English army; but as my lord declined the invitation, we will e’en take counsel of ourselves. Farewell, Montacute! With truth within, we fear no treason from without!”

The earl was disheartened by this failure and decided to a blockade the castle, every avenue to which by sea or land was closely watched. When the garrison was at it’s most extreme need and distress, Alexander Ramsay of Dalhousie decided to take action. Embarking at midnight with forty determined men, he eluded the English flotilla, and landed at the water postern gate.

It’s said that the following morning Agnes sent a freshly baked loaf and some fine wine to Montacute and had the "gift’s arrival proclaimed loudly".

The garrison, freed from danger of famine, had received Ramsay "most joyfully", but Ramsay was satisfied with no half relief. He immediately sallied forth from the main gate, surprised and cut to pieces the enemy’s advanced guard, and returned to safety. Salisbury was so discouraged by this new reverse, and the length of the siege, he broke camp on June 10th, and retired to England.

This was after nineteen weeks of blockade, six months of siege, and a cost of £6,000. This became the stuff of ballads, in one of which Lord Salisbury cried ‘‘She makes a stir in tower and trench, that brawling, boisterous, Scottish wench; came I early, came I late, I found Agnes at the gate.”

As for Agnes, as the English fled, she said, “behold of the litter of English pigs.”

Afterwards, she fades from the pages of history, but Sir Walter Scott said, ‘From the record of Scottish heroes, none can presume to erase her.’

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