Medieval Latin.

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dorsetUK
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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by dorsetUK »

In 1335 Edward III made a grant, ‘to the burgesses of Southampton of a special toll of 1d. in the pound on all goods and merchandise brought into or taken out of their liberty, to be spent on the completion of the fortifications of the town’. In 1338 Melcombe was also granted ‘murage’, and the citizens of London were, ‘ordered to make temporary defences along the banks of the Thames with stone and boards’. A precept was ‘sent to the sheriffs of England in 1338 ordering them to take the usual measures for defence: all fencible men were to be arrayed, beacons to be erected, and so forth. As usual, the writ related that the king had received information concerning the enemy, who had, ... gathered together an immense multitude of galleys and ships.

I suddenly found that I needed Google Translate ... and, as far beyond the sea, than in some of the things that can be at any of the parts of the foreigners, and the act of the evils of ourselves and from those, both in the land, into the sea, than’. … der, um ?????

Then I remembered what this thread is meant to be about :wink: ... congregata immensa multitudine galearum et navium, tarn supra mare, quam in quibusdam portubus partium exterarum mala et facinora quae poterunt nobis et nostris, tam in terra, quam in mare ...

If anyone can help ....

I’ve mentioned the attacks on the south coast by the French and their allies, and looking for a bit more detail, ‘During the Hundred Years' War Southampton suffered much at the hands of the French. Indeed, as early as 1338 it was captured and partially destroyed by a band of foreign pirates ...

Graphic demonstration of the weak defences came in October 1338, when a fleet of French and Genoese ships descended on Southampton early one morning. There is no indication the townsmen were able to mount any serious resistance. Many of them were slain or carried off for ransom, and their properties and merchandise plundered or destroyed by fire. No help came from county forces supposed to be guarding the coast. After the raiders had withdrawn, local and county men, it was later accused, had themselves looted wool and wines belonging to the king or to foreign merchants stored in Southampton. Large areas across the town, but particularly in the southern half, were burned down (probably including the house of the mayor of that year, where the town treasury and archives may have been kept) or were so badly damaged they had to be demolished; and during the coming year mercantile commerce came to a virtual standstill ...

Local government would likely have been disrupted, many of the town rulers having lost their lives or their homes, but this problem became academic when a furious Edward III suspended the borough liberties and appointed his own custodians of its government, supported by a small garrison; their focus was on repairing damage to the castle. The king also appointed a commission of enquiry into the failure of the defensive system. The investigation incorporated a review of the performance of local officials and one, a former mayor and a customs collector, was briefly imprisoned in the Tower and saddled with a ruinous fine for customs fraud and misappropriation of money collected for construction of defences’.

Reading up on this led to things such as: ‘Southampton was raided’, ‘Southampton was burned’, ‘Among other places, Portsmouth and Southampton suffered’. Rodger, and particularly Alban, go that bit further and include: the Isle of Wight, the Channel Islands, Plymouth, Portsea, Eastdean, the Isle of Man, north Wales, and of course – the important one – Swanage. :cry:

Most historians say that from late 1338 the south coast lived under fear of attack, with Alban saying, ‘It is clear that from the early 1330s the inhabitants of the coastal shires had become accustomed to the burdens and to the possibility of attacks upon them because of the naval war with the Scots … In March 1339, a force of eleven galleys attacked and burned Harwich. In May, a Norman and Genoese fleet sailed with impunity along the south coast of England, and although they merely threatened coastal places in Hampshire and were daunted by the formidable defences of the Isle of Wight, they nevertheless caused great damage at Plymouth and Hastings. In the same period, minor damage was done in the Isle of Thanet, at Dover and at Folkestone, while fishing vessels were put to the torch in Devon and Cornwall. In July, an enemy fleet of considerable proportions attacked the ports of Rye and Winchelsea.

The year 1340 told a similar tale. Despite the failure of the French invasion fleet at the battle of Sluys in June, raids on the English coast were recommenced in August when French and Castilian raiders, having been repelled by the defenders of the Isle of Wight, sailed westwards and fell upon Teignmouth and Plymouth, wreaking much havoc at the former but being driven off by the defenders at the latter’.

When I looked up ‘Southampton’ in the records, I found this.

Oct 13th 1338
Commission to Richard, earl of Arundel, John de Stonore and John Inge reciting that in the late attack on the county of Southampton the enemy plundered and burned the towns of Portesmuth and Southampton and other places and then retired to their galleys without encountering any resistance from the men of those parts, and that it is reported that the keepers of the coast and arrayers of men in the county, knowing that the attack was to be made, not only neglected entirely to provide for the defence of parts threatened but basely fled with the men of the said town on sight of the enemy, and that the said keepers and their deputies permitted the men appointed to stay to guard the coast at the charges of the said county and of the counties of Berks and Wilts and of some other places, for money and other gifts received for this purpose by the keepers and deputies, to go home, and did not find the men-at-arms, archers and others for whom they had levied divers other sums of money on the said counties and places, and commanding them to find by inquisitions through whose default the town of Southampton was taken, how the keepers and arrayers bore themselves when the galleys came in sight and at other times, the names of the men of Southampton and others who fled from the enemy or adhered to them and all other particulars of the disgraceful neglect of duty in this behalf, punish such as are most guilty by imprisonment in the Tower of London or elsewhere as may be expedient, and others as they deserve, and to certify the king with all speed of all that they do in the matter; to hear and determine all acts of rebellion, contempt and adherence and other trespasses herein; and to see that the town of Southampton be secured against any future attack, by the advice of John de Scures and Thomas Cemdray, the keepers of the town. By K. and the Keeper and the whole Council.

Source: Calendar of the Patent Rolls, 1338. p180 and 181.

Granted, that is what was reported to Edward III, but I think it may have been reasonable for him to be ‘furious’.

However, he was a little distracted as he was doing his best to secure the loyalty of the Flemings, and in the parliament of March ‘39 there were moans and criticisms of his handling of the domestic situation. Orders to secure the coast were issued - but then they had been before! - and there’s a ‘writ of November 1338 regarding the ringing of church bells to warn of the approach of enemies, applied to churches situated within seven leagues of the sea’. Beacons were also supposed to be used to warn of invasion and people who held land within 12 leagues of the sea were ordered to move there ‘for defence of the realm against the French’.

During ‘39 and into ‘40 there were real concerns that the French were going to invade, but they and the Scots just kept on with their small invasions, and those living near the coast must have existed in quite some degree of fear.

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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by RollyShed »

by dorsetUK - Then I remembered what this thread is meant to be about :wink: ... congregata immensa multitudine galearum et navium, tarn supra mare, quam in quibusdam portubus partium exterarum mala et facinora quae poterunt nobis et nostris, tam in terra, quam in mare ...

If anyone can help ....
I broke the sentence is to a few words at a time and got -

congregata immensa
the huge gathering

multitudine galearum
number of galleys

et navium, tarn supra mare,
and of the ships was, as far beyond the sea,

quam in quibusdam
which in some cases

portubus partium exterarum
Ports of foreign parts

mala et facinora
evils and crimes

quae poterunt nobis et nostris,
things that can be on us and on our

tam in terra,
both on the ground

quam in mare
and in the sea

Then I tried - https://en.eprevodilac.com/prevodilac-latinski-engleski

was gathered together at the immense multitude of ships of ships; and, as far beyond the sea, than in some of the things that can be at any of the parts of the foreigners, and the act of the evils of ourselves and from those, both in the land, into the sea, than

Any help from that?

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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by dorsetUK »

Hi RollyShed, and thanks for having a go at that - damn frustrating isn't it.

It comes from Thomas Rymer's 'Foedera', Vol 11 to be precise, which is available online but only in it's original medieval Latin - unless you know better.

I think I'll just have to live with the fact that I have to rely on others.

Cheers Jon

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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by absque fenestris »

... congregata immensa multitudine galearum et navium, tarn supra mare, quam in quibusdam portubus partium exterarum mala et facinora quae poterunt nobis et nostris, tam in terra, quam in mare ...

... an enormous number of helmets and ships gathered on the sea and the surrounding ports and the strangers committed nasty crimes against us, on land and on the sea ...


* galearum = the plural of helmet (galea) > ...an enormous number of troops and ships
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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by dorsetUK »

absque fenestris wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 9:23 pm
... an enormous number of helmets and ships gathered on the sea and the surrounding ports and the strangers committed nasty crimes against us, on land and on the sea ...

* galearum = the plural of helmet (galea) > ...an enormous number of troops and ships
Allegra af, co vai?

Then I got a bit lost.

af salve, et gratias ago pro translatione.
Hallo af, und danke für deine übersetzung.

Bonjour af, et merci pour votre traduction

That last one, I managed myself but did have to check ‘translation’, as all I could think of was ‘tradure’ - and it turns out that was wrong. :oops:

Helmets = troops, that's brilliant.

Then there's those 'strangers' and their 'nasty crimes' - ooooh <shudder>.

Thanks to both, RollyShed and af

Ka kite anō au i a koe.

A pli tard.

PS. If either of those are offensive, I'm very sorry, but please blame the internet, rather than the idjit who blindly copied them.

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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by absque fenestris »

Hi Jon
sorry for being a bit short. A rather unsuccessful move on April 1st and a subsequent stay in hospital made a big mess of me.
I hope for a friendlier and more relaxed May ...
But of course I am following your posts with interest about the southern English events of 700 years ago.
Greetings af
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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by dorsetUK »

absque fenestris wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 5:37 pm
A rather unsuccessful move on April 1st and a subsequent stay in hospital made a big mess of me.
Hi af - wow.

I'm sorry to hear that and as you haven't posted anything on this forum I had been a bit worried, but
I hope for a friendlier and more relaxed May ...
Good to hear, let's hope it carries on, and on, and on ...

Here, I must apologise for going 'off topic' - again! - why don't the blinkin' mods stop me :D - but a bit of local news.

Stay well, Jon.

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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by dorsetUK »

RollyShed wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 4:51 am
dorsetUK wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:18 pm
RollyShed wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:02 pm
Mount Tarawera erupted around 1315 in the Kaharoa eruption. The ash thrown from this event may have affected temperatures around the globe and precipitated the Great Famine of 1315–17 in Europe.
Cheers RollyShed - I love a bit of international co-operation :lol:
Jon.
Maybe a wee bit off the thread but as Mt Tarawera is in New Zealand (as dorsetUK noticed), those that might be called "the locals", Māori, originated from eastern Polynesia and arrived in New Zealand in several waves of waka (canoe) voyages somewhere between 1320 and 1350 (radiocarbon dating) and and appear to have got here just after the eruption. Note that some oral histories say earlier or as early as 800.

Now back to medieval Europe......
Hi RollyShed

A bit too modern for me, but here’s an interesting bit about England’s history. It’s mainly about Australia but does start in New Zealand

Jon

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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by RollyShed »

The Europeans into the Pacific, for New Zealand goes back 100 years before Cook. Tasman ran into the west coast of New Zealand, 1642, and had a few of his crew killed by the locals so headed north and back to Indonesia.

So Abel Tasman got to New Zealand about 300 years after the Maoris, not a long time in the scheme of things.

The west coast of Australia had various wrecks by those going to the Indonesian area and not turning north soon enough.
Timeline of significant wrecks
1622 Tryall, British East India Company ship, on the Tryal Rocks [sic], near the Monte Bello Islands.
1629 Batavia, Dutch East India Company (VOC) ship, on the Houtman Abrolhos.
1656 Vergulde Draeck, VOC ship, near Ledge Point.
1712 Zuytdorp, VOC ship, north of Kalbarri.

Interesting that, about 100 year intervals for European arrivals. Tasman 1642, Cook 1769, my great great grandfather 1857, my father ~1930, all about 100 year steps.

Now back to the Latin.....

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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by dorsetUK »

RollyShed wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 6:05 pm
The west coast of Australia had various wrecks by those going to the Indonesian area and not turning north soon enough.
Timeline of significant wrecks
1622 Tryall, British East India Company ship, on the Tryal Rocks [sic], near the Monte Bello Islands.
1629 Batavia, Dutch East India Company (VOC) ship, on the Houtman Abrolhos.
1656 Vergulde Draeck, VOC ship, near Ledge Point.
1712 Zuytdorp, VOC ship, north of Kalbarri.
Hi RollyShed.

I never even guessed that there were shipwrecks off the coast of Oz before Cook 'discovered' it. :shock:

Well, that goes along with what I was 'taught', as NZ and Oz didn’t even exist until until the brave and intrepid Englishman – yawn – Captain James Cook unveiled them to the - puke – civilised world.

The Batavia sure is an interesting tale.

I don’t know how 'good’ this is, but certainly expands on the story.
... my great great grandfather 1857, my father ~1930, all about 100 year steps.
During that period both my families were stuck in Purbeck, and now there are none! There are still some cousins who - surprisingly - don't drag their knuckles as they walk. :lol:

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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by RollyShed »

Arrh yes, the history we are told as kids. The victor writes the history... sometimes.

Ferdinand Magellan was the first to sail round the world. Well actually he wasn't. He only got half way before getting killed, 27 April 1521, Mactan, Philippines. Juan Sebastián Elcano was the first as he finally took over command after those previously in command were killed or were replaced.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Seba ... A1n_Elcano

The Batavia story, yes, another disaster making a "good" story. A bit like Scott to the South Pole, a historic disaster. Actually with Scott, previous bad management down there on an earlier trip and having to be rescued by a Scott.

Now.. back to Latin??? :-)

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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by Portreve »

I know that Latin ultimately have ride to a number of different languages. In particular, I'm curious about the histories of French and Italian, and which of them is closer to Latin.

However, my curiosity doesn't end there. As I understand it, Latin is an incredibly complex, rules-laden language. However, "modern" languages are simpler. Given that normally, the path things take is to become more technical and complex or otherwise expanded in capability (electronics, laws, our knowledge of science, etc.) why would language development seem to be in essence 180 degrees out of phase?
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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by dorsetUK »

RollyShed wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 6:04 pm
Now.. back to Latin??? :-)
Portreve wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 1:01 am
Given that normally, the path things take is to become more technical and complex or otherwise expanded in capability (electronics, laws, our knowledge of science, etc.) why would language development seem to be in essence 180 degrees out of phase?
Bearing in mind that I think I'm probably going mad, the discovery of NZ and Oz, and the roots of the English language fit together rather nicely.

Said someone who’s neither a Historian nor a Linguist.

‘The English adventurer and buccaneer William Dampier, traveling around the world in the 1690s in search of business opportunities, once found himself on the southeastern coast of India, in Tamil Nadu. He was the first to write in English about a kind of vessel he observed there. It was little more than a raft made of logs.

”On the coast of Coromandel," he wrote in 1697, "they call them Catamarans. These are but one Log, or two, sometimes of a sort of light Wood ... so small, that they carry but one Man, whose legs and breech are always in the Water.”

While the name came from Tamil, the modern catamaran came from the South Pacific. English visitors applied the Tamil name catamaran to the swift, stable sail and paddle boats made out of two widely separated logs and used by Polynesian natives to get from one island to another’.

https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/en ... an#History

‘The acquisition of the catamaran and outrigger canoe technology by the non-Austronesian peoples in Sri Lanka and southern India is due to the result of very early Austronesian contact with the region, including the Maldives and the Laccadive Islands, estimated to have occurred around 1000 to 600 BCE and onwards. This may have possibly included limited colonization that have since been assimilated. This is still evident in Sri Lankan and South Indian languages. For example, Tamil paṭavu, Telugu paḍava, and Kannada paḍahu, all meaning "ship", are all derived from Proto‑Hesperonesian *padaw, "sailboat", with Austronesian cognates like Javanese perahu, Kadazan padau, Maranao padaw, Cebuano paráw, Samoan folau, Hawaiian halau, and Maori wharau’.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catamaran

Abel Tasman ‘saw’ catamarns in NZ.

So, because of the language it’s nearly certain that someone ‘discovered’ many and various land masses in the wider NZ/Oz area and then linked up with India, long before Europeans even knew of their existence.

Then there’s written-history. In Europe that begins with Latin and because of that, and their use of stone, the Romans have left us an absolutely fantastic history, but one that can ‘swamp’ what happened before them.

For instance – ‘Celts’ spoke an Indo-European language.

The Romans with their desire for travel and ‘second’ - and third - homes arrived on our shores, educated us and we became ‘Roman’.

I don’t ‘get on’ with that idea. The Romans arrived and we all started speaking Latin. To me that’s slightly ridiculous. The Romans probably had a ‘linguistic’ team, as did the ‘Celts’ as trade in things such as Tin and Copper for Wine and Oil is known before the Romans started to colonise the UK. Granted all trade could have been conducted through sign-language, but I guess that’s a bit far fetched, so some form of verbal communication probably happened.

During the 400 years that the Romans ruled us they bought in many troops from many nations – who’d all instantly learnt Latin. That’s a little bit too perfect for me. Although soldiers must have learnt some Latin, I can’t help feeling that Bi or Multi-lingual people must have been in demand and as time passed so, if only to maintain sanity, many must have learnt Latin, or some form of Latin.

Language is always crucial, and I guess that those among the conquered who already knew the ‘linqua franca’ - presumably Latin – would have done rather well, and could well have led to people believing that learning this new language was a good idea, but the Romans would have had to speak whatever we spoke, and where were the schools and the teachers? Was Latin learnt informally by the masses, or, as I speak ‘Franglais’ - mainly ‘glais’ - did they have a similar ‘mash-up’?

Did everybody end up speaking Latin? I have no idea, but c400 when the Romans went home suddenly the English had to learn a new language as the ‘Saxons’ arrived, and we may have done so as ‘English’ is largely ’Germanic’

But, as we speak we also write, and we may well have spoken ‘Saxon’ and originally have written with ‘runes’, but ‘Beowulf’ was written in Saxon.

Running parallel to that, c600, came Christianity, with it’s priests and the need to ‘administate’. Records in ‘olde English’ do exist, but those we have were mainly written by the church, in Latin. By c900 Asser in his ‘The Life of King Alfred’ was writing in Latin – but then he was a churchman.

I think the vast majority would have spoken a form of ‘Saxon’, whilst a minority spoke and wrote Latin.

Then came William the Conqueror – so we’d all have to learn medieval French – although I guess through osmosis rather than education. Whilst the records were kept in Latin, it is thought that medieval kings and lords spoke French, and Latin was certainly used formally, eg, when the king wrote to his subjects it was usually in Latin to the sheriff, who had to have the announcement read – presumably in ‘English’ - at his Court and various Fairs and Markets. In 1362 Edward III legislated so that ‘English’ was used in courts. Remember though, some Saxons translated the Bible into ‘English’, but post 1066 both the bible and church services were in Latin and when people next tried to translate the bible into English, that caused a few ructions.

To me, English is a bit of a palimpsest. It has an Indo-European base, but then it has layers of Latin, German and French on top of that, or mixed into it, and then has parts of other languages inserted, eg, ‘Bungalow’, from India, ‘Telephone’ from America, ‘Lounge’, as in ‘room’, from post-medieval France, ‘Patio’ from Spain and ‘Chocolate’ which probably comes from Mexico.

But, for 100’s of years, English was written in Latin by ‘the few’ and because of that I wonder if spoken language was 'simpler' than written language, and these days we're trying to ensure that most people can understand what we're writing, and so our written language is becoming less opaque?

Coincidentally, John Wycliffe, one of those naughty boys who tried to popularise the bible in English, will appear here soon.

Breaking news … It’s just been discovered that, ‘oh look, you’ve lost again’, comes from both the indigenous NZ and Oz languages, especially when talking about Rugby.

Jon.

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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by RollyShed »

Waka is the Maori term for something that floats, basically but generally taken to mean a canoe. The long distant voyaging ones, getting to New Zealand, would be what we call catamarans. Commonly here are waka ama which is an outrigger canoe. However with the very big trees which grew in NZ, single hulled canoes were common including for coastal voyaging though double hulled were also still used.

https://teara.govt.nz/en/waka-canoes
A vast lot of words referring to the Maori canoes. Go to the end for all starting with "waka".
http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarl ... ck-d1.html

The bible and language written in. If everyone spoke their own language and tilled the fields, those who were educated and could also read Latin had the power, especially on Sundays. Power means rich, means good food, drink and lodgings.

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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by dorsetUK »

RollyShed wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 6:41 pm
Waka is the Maori term for something that floats, basically but generally taken to mean a canoe. The long distant voyaging ones, getting to New Zealand, would be what we call catamarans. Commonly here are waka ama which is an outrigger canoe. However with the very big trees which grew in NZ, single hulled canoes were common including for coastal voyaging though double hulled were also still used.

https://teara.govt.nz/en/waka-canoes
A vast lot of words referring to the Maori canoes. Go to the end for all starting with "waka".
http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarl ... ck-d1.html
Sadly we've lost out indigenous language and I've no idea what we called our Bronze age boats and perhaps we didn’t have any trees big enough as we had to sew planks together.

Dorset’s version of an Iron age boat Please enlarge that photo.
The bible and language written in. If everyone spoke their own language and tilled the fields, those who were educated and could also read Latin had the power, especially on Sundays. Power means rich, means good food, drink and lodgings.
Didn't it! Add in the fact that 'we' had to give a 'tithe' of our produce to the church and they owned many farms as well and that must have made them pretty stable. Until they were invaded.

Jon

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Re: Medieval Latin.

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May 5th 1352, four years after the Black Death started, Edward III had some sympathy for Portland,

‘For the security and defence of the island of Porteland, co. Dorset, which, as the king has learned, is so depopulated on account of the late mortality in the time of the pestilence that the men left there will not be sufficient to defend the same against attacks by his alien enemies ...’

Although that only mentions the pestilence, Geoffrey le Baker, a ‘chronicler’, says that in ‘52 a fleet was sent to deal with pirates from Normandy and Picardy. Could Portland have been attacked again, and Edward didn’t want to put that in writing?

In 1353, Edward III, trying to undermine the pope, passed the first Statute of Praemunire, This was intended to stop ‘we English’, from appealing to ‘foreign’ courts, especially the pope’s court – which is often aka, the Roman Court or, the Roman Curia.

19 Sept 1356, the Battle of Poitiers happened, where ‘we’, under the command of Edward ‘the Black Prince’ unexpectedly defeated the French.

Oh, and captured King John II of France in the process. As kings could say, ‘oh, no, he’s my prisoner, not yours’, so this was a pretty big coup for Edward III and ransoming John back should have bought in oodles and oodles of cash.

A very personal view.

In most English authored versions of the ‘Hundred Years War’, it was we ‘plucky’ English against ‘mighty’ France. It wasn’t. The French king was something of a ‘puppet’. The French ‘Comtes’ knew that they needed a ‘king’ in order to stop them tearing each other to pieces but often didn’t like – respect? - him, but he was essential in mediating between the various …. factions.

There’s a long history of French Comtes allying themselves with the King of England, and then there were the Flemish and the many and various Lords that made up ‘Germany’ - which was also a group of ….

I wrote, ‘egos vying for supremacy’, but they were very different times – and ‘ego’ hadn’t been invented!

I’ve just had to delete a rather large ‘chunk’, as the more I looked at it, the deeper into religious belief it took me – not a place I want to go.

So … also a group of competing factions.

I think that it also needs to born in mind that Provence and places such as Monaco weren’t ‘French’ and Aquitaine (Gascony) was held by the King of England, and many of it’s residents felt more loyalty to him rather than to the King of France. Similarly, Spain wasn’t one country and some parts of it would have loved to get rid of the French King.

England had one of the ultimate, um, ‘characters’, in Edward III, King of England, Lord of Ireland, Duke of Aquitaine, and doing his best to be King of Scotland, or at least have a ‘minion’ of his on that throne, as his son ‘The Black Prince’ was the Prince of Wales. As said above, in 1340 Edward bankrupted himself trying to ensure treaties with some – many – of those who thought that they’d do better under an English King of France. Even the ‘crown jewels’ ended up ‘in-hoc’ - not for the first time.

Anyhoo, the ransom of King John should have cleared all debts and set up Edward III in order to ‘finish off’ the French – but didn’t.

Leaving the ‘very personal’.

W Mark Ormrod is one of the Edward III experts, and in his take on Edward III* he says that although some ransom was paid, how much is unknown, and what it was spent on is also unknown. Edward did have a tower that was probably stuffed full of cash, but ...

* Yale’s, English Monarchs series.

Jan 1360, Edward III marched on Paris and put up his tents. He – and presumably his army - stayed there, presumably receiving insults from the French. In April, he finally realised that they weren’t coming out to play, so in a fit of pique ‘laid waste to the countryside’, and went to Chartres. On the evening of Easter Monday it rained. Rather a lot. And much of it was frozen.

As all English people love discussing the weather, on 16 Jan 1362 the Grote Mandrenke swept across England. Salisbury and Norwich Cathedrals and St Albans Abbey were damaged and the Humber estuary port of ‘Ravenser Odd’* was obliterated. The storm was given a funny foreign name because it did far more damage sur le continent.

* ‘Ravenser Odd’. Really? Oh, OK.

In 1365, Parliament passed the second Statute of Praemunire, further forbidding appeals to the Pope.

In 1367 permission was given to the Abbess of Shaftesbury to ‘crenellate’ her Abbey, presumably for purposes of defence. And in Sept ‘69 the French burnt Portsmouth, while we raided Picardy and Normandy.

A bit of trouble with the dates here as it could be June, but it starts Nov 12 1370, To the sheriff of Kent.

Order, under pain of forfeiture, on sight of these presents forthwith to cease every excuse and cause proclamation to be made on the king's behalf in singular the fairs, markets, hundreds, boroughs, market towns and places of his bailiwick within liberties and without, that all and singular of whatsoever estate or condition having lands in that county and not dwelling within the same, if they be not continually abiding upon their own lands in any the counties of Dorset, Suthampton, Sussex, Somerset, Devon or Cornwall for defence of the sea coast, shall under pain of forfeiture of their lands, goods and chattels etc. with all speed draw towards their lands in Kent, cause their men and tenants there to be arrayed every one according to his estate and means, and with them and all their household continually abide in array in such power as they best may, compelling them so to do by distraint of their goods and chattels, and if they have none by taking their lands into the king's hand and by what other means he may, so that they be there before the octaves of the Purification next at latest with their households there to abide for defence of the sea coast against attacks of the king's enemies, and in the mean time to make inquisition concerning the names of all and singular who having lands in Kent have not there been dwelling, certifying in chancery before the octaves aforesaid their names, and the quantity and value of their lands; as the king has particular information by certain his friends that his enemies of France and other their adherents have assembled a great host of ships with men at arms and armed men, purposing as speedily as they may therewith to land within the realm of England and to wipe away the king and his realm and all the English tongue, if their malice be not resisted with a strong hand ; and it is his will to provide against the hurt and peril which by their attack may happen to him, his realm and subjects.

To the sheriff of Suthampton. The like to the sheriffs of Dorset, Sussex, Somerset, Devon and Cornwall respectively. To the sheriff of Wiltesir. The like to the sheriff of Berkshire.

The like, mutatis mutandis*, to the sheriff of Surrey in regard to those having lands in Sussex.

So that’s the King ordering people to go and live where he wanted them to do so and to prepare to be invaded.

* When used in connection with a contract, ‘Mutatis Mutandis’ means “considering the changes that must be made”. Or so that internet thing tells me.

January 1371, Edward, ‘the Black Prince’, who’d been running Aquitaine returned to England because of his poor health and heavy debts.

Should you wonder what the pope was up to, well, he was trying to arrange some peace.

A little local colour, Feb 20 1371, To the sheriff of Dorset.

Order to cause Edmund de Mortuo Mari [Mortimer] earl of March and Philippa his wife to have seisin of a messuage and appurtenances in Warham held by Robert Fergaunt hanged for felony it is said; as the king has learned by inquisition, taken by the sheriff, that the premises have been in the king's hand a year and a day and are yet in his hand, that the said Robert held them of the said earl and Philippa in right of Philippa, and that John atte Hale late sheriff had the year and a day and the waste thereof, and ought to answer to the king for the same.

This could be an example of corruption. After someone was ‘hanged for felony’ their lands ‘reverted’ to the king for a year and a day. After that he could do what he wanted eg, give them to the felons family, reward someone or keep the income. Here though, ‘John atte Hale late sheriff’ was our sheriff back in 1362. So it’s possible that he kept hold of the income, defrauding the King.

Back to the wider picture, and on Feb 18 1371, To the sheriff of Dorset.

Like order to stay any distress made upon the abbot of Teukesbury; as the said abbot abides continually in his abbey in the march of Wales with his household for maintenance of divine worship, as he is bound to do, and he, his tenants and household are there armed, arrayed and tried for defence of those parts according to the king's order, and he has found as many men at arms, armed men and archers for defence of the sea coast as it pertains to him to find by reason of his lands in Dorset. By C.

Right, Wales was far more important than Dorset – hurumph. However, looking at grants of ‘murage’ and there were many more in and around the Welsh borders than anywhere else – so OK.

But why was Dorset’s sheriff, Roger Manningford, ‘distressing’ the abbot of Tewkesbury?

Possibly because the Flemings had been our allies for a long time, but the French were trying to woo them away from us and were successful in 1371. Flemish ships joined the French sailing up and down la Manche. At some point in 1371 all Flemings in England were arrested, so their country returned to ‘our side’. But before that we seem to have been trying to raise a fleet.

This is a ‘pig’ of a record, but here goes - on Jun 12, To Guy de Brien and to Walter de Hanlegh and Walter de Wodebergh the king's Serjeants at arms.

Order to stay the taking of the lands, goods or chattels of any men whatsoever in the counties of Dorset, Somerset, Devon, Cornwall, Gloucester and Suthampton into the king's hand, and the choosing or taking of any men dwelling within six leagues from the sea for furnishing the ships which the king has appointed to sail upon his service in the company of the said Guy to resist the malice of his enemies, restoring and delivering up any lands, goods or chattels so seized together with the issues thereof taken, dearresting and setting free all men by them arrested who dwell within six leagues from the sea, although lately by letters patent the king appointed them jointly and severally by themselves and their deputies to choose and take in the said counties within liberties and without as many men at arms, armed men, archers and seamen as should be sufficient for the furnishing and defence of the said ships, as well of those arrayed by the arrayers of men at arms, armed men and archers in those counties as others, men in the retinue of lords excepted, to put them upon the said ships to sail at the king's wages in the company of the said Guy, and to arrest and take all who should be found rebellious to them or any of them, seizing into the king's hand their lands, goods and chattels and committing their bodies to prison there to abide until the king should take other order concerning their punishment; as it seems to the king and council that their said commission issued in error in regard to the taking or seizure of the lands, goods and chattels of any men in the said counties, and the arrest and taking of men who dwell within six leagues from the sea in order to sail as aforesaid.

Streuth!

Trying to decipher that and I think the king made a mistake, or changed his mind, so the fleet wasn’t needed.

Unfortunately, it was.

These next two, unedited, records seem to have ‘slipped out of consciousness’. They’re said to be ‘on the originalia, but not enrolled’, which seems to mean that they were recorded but never made it into the ‘official’ record.

In 1371, the Abbot and Convent of Shaftesbury, in Dorset, complain to the King that on Saturday in'*\A veillo des Apostels St. Peter and St. Paul, 1,000 Flemings armed as enemies of the realm arrived in 25 ships at '* Pui^V and assaulted the manor of Evercombe, in Purback, and took thence by force, batels, oxen, sheep, pigs, cheese, &c. to the value of 1,000 marcs.

and

The Abbot and Convent of Cerne, in Dorset, complain to King Edward that on the 28th June 1371, 800 Flemings arrived in Purbeck and forcibly took from the manor of Kymerick in Purbeck, 80 sheep worth 12L, 106 ewes worth 13^. 6«., 38 hnggastres worth 689., 63 lambs worth 100 …. killed 300 sheep, and did other damage to the value of 20L and so wounded and ill-treated the tenants of the manor that some are since dead and others despair of life; which damages are estimated at 100L, for which they pray remedy.

Right, I’m going to leave that there for the moment, as I’m still trying to make sense of it.

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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by RollyShed »

Having read Safety of the Seas, dorsetUK is now, for me, filling in the rest of the story - thank you.

The beauty of English is when a new word is needed we either grab one from th region that the item comes from or revert to Latin or Greek. "Telephone", "television", - ancient Greek "tele" at a distance, "vision" Latin and "phone" is the Greek "phon", "sound".

A recent word is "tsunami". We used to use "tidal wave" because that was the closest thing in Britain and they were caused by the tide especially up rivers. However what we had were earthquake generated and as the Japanese also had them we have moved to using their word, tsu = harbour, nami = wave. There is in Wiki, mention that the Greek Thucydides thought they might be earthquake generated.

However the French with their language purity thing have to do a complicated invention for new words. We find it here with the Maoris. There is so much that they don't have words for and have had to invent words. Think of, "I went down the tar sealed road in my car to get a hamburger." There are about 4 words there that they would have a direct translation for and the rest need to be invented.

As for Latin or the local language. Maybe consider that Latin had a written form and the local language didn't. Now, how are you going to spell the local dialect words? And how recognisable to everyone from one end of the country to the other, especially with the low education levels? Hence the use of Latin, especially for scientific papers.

As for the church and power - "Henry VIII was the king of England (1509–47). He broke with the Roman Catholic Church and had Parliament declare him supreme head of the Church of England, starting the English Reformation, because the pope would not annul his marriage to Catherine of Aragon. He wanted to remarry and produce a male heir."

He wanted power on his terms. Plus a lot of money from church property would come in handy too.

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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by dorsetUK »

RollyShed wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 6:50 pm
Having read Safety of the Seas, dorsetUK is now, for me, filling in the rest of the story - thank you.
Thanks for that, but if you hadn't pointed out where I could get my copy from, all of this may not have happened - let's put it down to good teamwork.
As for the church and power - "Henry VIII was the king of England (1509–47). He broke with the Roman Catholic Church and had Parliament declare him supreme head of the Church of England, starting the English Reformation, because the pope would not annul his marriage to Catherine of Aragon. He wanted to remarry and produce a male heir."

He wanted power on his terms. Plus a lot of money from church property would come in handy too.
True, but there's another aspect to that as well. Having no son, Henry I wanted his daughter, Maud, to take over after him - that led to 'The Anarchy'. Edward I only had one remaining male child and if he died young - as all the others had - then he wanted his daughter to take over - that led to Edward II. Edward III 'managed' his eldest son, Edward 'the Black Prince', brilliantly and allowed the Black Prince to nominate his son, Richard, as the next in line - that led to a nine year old king, murder, retribution and revolution. To me, maintaining the direct blood line was very important to English kings, maybe crucially important. As he had no son, Henry VIII's actions did lead to his aggrandisement and to murder, retribution and eventually, the English Civil War.

The good side to that is that we also got our first Queen. Mind you, our early Queens had to behave as if they were Kings!

Jon

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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by dorsetUK »

RIGHT, I’m worn out translating all this Medieval Latin, so I’m gunna have a go at Medieval Jografee.

If you remember - and if you don’t that’s fine, with all this ‘isolating’ I’m having trouble remembering what day it is - but a few posts ago, I ‘gave up’ here;
In 1371, the Abbot and Convent of Shaftesbury, in Dorset, complain to the King that on Saturday in'*\A veillo des Apostels St. Peter and St. Paul, 1,000 Flemings armed as enemies of the realm arrived in 25 ships at '* Pui^V and assaulted the manor of Evercombe, in Purback, and took thence by force, batels, oxen, sheep, pigs, cheese, &c. to the value of 1,000 marcs.

and

The Abbot and Convent of Cerne, in Dorset, complain to King Edward that on the 28th June 1371, 800 Flemings arrived in Purbeck and forcibly took from the manor of Kymerick in Purbeck, 80 sheep worth 12L, 106 ewes worth 13^. 6«., 38 hnggastres worth 689., 63 lambs worth 100 …. killed 300 sheep, and did other damage to the value of 20L and so wounded and ill-treated the tenants of the manor that some are since dead and others despair of life; which damages are estimated at 100L, for which they pray remedy.
Even though there’s the usual idiosyncratic spelling, plus copying errors and somewhere that’s unknown to me, I love those records. Details, lot’s of them and not from the King’s point of view.

1. ‘in'*\A veillo des Apostels St. Peter and St. Paul’ seems to translate as the ‘Feast of ...’, or the ‘Solemnity of Saints Peter and Paul’, which is reckoned to be 29 June, so the dates are at least close.

2. “ewes worth 13^. 6«., 38 hnggastres worth 689.’

Looking for a bit on medieval animals led me to the Prioress of Catesby who ‘kept a most meticulous account of the livestock on her farm. All were numbered and classified, cart-horses, brood-mares, colts, foals, oxen, bulls, cows, stirks - three-year old, two-year old, yearlings - calves, sheep, wethers, hogerells, lambs, hogs, boars, sows, hilts, hogsters and pigs’.

Maybe the hnggastres were hogsters?

The numbers should be ??L ??S and ??D, but ...

3. The Flemings - ‘arrived in 25 ships at '* Pui^V “and assaulted the manor of Evercombe, in Purback’.

‘Evercombe, in Purbeck’ doesn’t exist but there is ‘Overcombe’ which is now part of Weymouth.
Image

Melcombe is SW of Overcombe, betwixt the inland waters, possibly owning one or the other, or both, and landing there would have been a damned site easier than many other places. Kymerick in Purbeck must be Kimmeridge.
Image

The flat promontory is known as Broad Bench and up above it, or to the left of it is …. um …. ?Egilstone Gwlye? …. I thought that I must be confusing it with 'Agglestone Rock', so went to bed.

The next day I still thought it was Egilstone Gwile and it might be, and here comes some Jeeologee Prof West takes some great photo’s and is the only person who may confirm the Gwlye bit of Egilstone Gwlye, and here’s Egilston farm

Gwyle, probably pronounced as ‘goyle’ may mean ’wooded glen near the mouth of a stream’.

Another Gwyle
Image

If you start at Kimmeridge then there’s the road that leads to Smedmore House and that’s in what we call ‘Encombe’, then just to the east is Encombe farm – so I suppose I should say, Smedmore House is near Encombe. But that doesn’t matter as it wasn’t there in the 1300’s.

Then there’s Chapmans Pool and up above it ‘Renscombe’ or ‘Rentscombe’ - the valley of the Ravens – or the valley of some bloke named ’Hremn’. That map’s good one for the Topography – which, of course, comes from Ancient Greek – nooooooooooooooo.

Should you know the local area, then even better, a bit of LIDAR. (See: Layers: Digital Terrain Model). My Internet’s far from wonderful and that can take ages to load, but then works pretty well. (There are better LIDAR maps available, but I’m still trying to work out how to use them.) Quicker and dirtier.

Another reason that I’m interested in Kingston is because there’s a Saxon road running south from beyond Corfe to Kingston and then down to the coast, as seen in charters S534 and S632, and the straightest route to the coast runs very near to Chapmans Pool, but there’s also another that runs to Kimmeridge.

Returning to Kimmeridge and the ‘other’ road leads down into the village and then down to the bay – so long as you don’t mind paying. Unless it’s really busy they let me go down there for free! That’s true, but if you’re on a motorcycle then I guess that they may let you as well!

Anyway, no 'Overcombe', but, in Purback seems to be the definitive bit - unless that’s me showing my bias. Which may be very limiting. I may just be too ‘close’ to this.

Could it have been two attacks with one at Weymouth’s Overcombe and the other at Kimmeridge? If so then there must have two fleets who invaded on the same day, or one fleet that raided Overcombe then, at a different date, popped round the corner to raid Kimmeridge.

However, next to Kimmeridge is Encombe. One fleet assaulting Kimmeridge and next door to it, Encombe – Evercombe? - seems to make more sense. Unless one attack happened on the Saturday of the Solemnity of Saints Peter and Paul and the other on 28th June. I’m assuming that the ‘Solemnity’ is the 29th so would ‘the Saturday’ be the following Saturday, which would allow for the Kimmeridge assault on the 28th and the one at Overcombe on the 5th of July?

I don’t know, and here I may just be over-complicating things but next door to Kimmeridge is Chapmans Pool and just above that is ‘Rentscombe’ – which I wonder if we locals could have known it as – that bit of land at the top of the combe that leads down to Chapmans Pool – or ‘Overcombe’.

However, it’s easier if ‘in Purback’ is wrong and it’s Weymouth’s Overcombe – which would mean two fleets, or one fleet on separate days.

As the language doesn’t help me and as the complaints were made by Cerne and Shaftesbury Abbeys, I wondered if looking at the land they held by could help.

From Domesday - Renscombe Farm. Romescumbe / Romescumba: Cerne Abbey. 2 cows, 250 wethers.

The abbey [of Cerne] had added largely to its endowment at the time the Domesday Survey was taken; the church of St. Peter was then returned as holding land in …. Kimmeridge, Rentscombe ...

Valor Ecclesiasticus of 1535 …. when they held the parsonages of … Kimmeridge …

But Evercombe, or Overcombe, don’t exist in Domesday.

Also in Domesday Shaftesbury held a lot of Kingston and they kept hold of it as 'The abbess received from Henry III a charter for wreck of the sea in her manor of Kingston’.

…. in 1481 Edward IV inspected and confirmed by his letters patent a grant of Henry III for wreck of the sea in their manor of Kingston.

Both of those suggest that Kingston had a coastline, but Shaftesbury could have been lying unless Overcombe was part of Kingston. Or just somewhere that has disappeared.

I can’t find any governmental response, so I can’t even guess at a conclusion.

Why’s life so difficult!

One more thing, the ‘fiendish foreign pirates’ managed to steal a lot of livestock, and cheese, but how? ‘Batels’, were mentioned.

Batels, courtesy of Wikipedia;

Noun
Batel ‎(plural batei) clapper (on a bell)

Middle French

Noun
Batel (plural bateaulx) boat (watercraft)

Old French

Noun
Batel (oblique plural bateaus or bateax or batiaus or batiax or batels, nominative singular bateaus or bateax or batiaus or batiax or batels, nominative plural batel)
boat (watercraft)

I'll go with boats, hoping it's not a misspelt chattels.

I shouldn't, it’s much too modern, I really shouldn't, but …. Rentscombe, now Renscombe.
Image

Radar c1940.

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absque fenestris
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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by absque fenestris »

Batel
Batel é um termo náutico proveniente do latim battelum e, em sentido lato, significa barco (conf. o francês bateau e o inglês boat) ou canoa de boca aberta. O termo Batel, segundo o dicionário Houaiss, refere-se à maior das embarcações miúdas. Segundo o mesmo dicionário, a embarcação servia aos navios antigos(naus) para transporte, por exemplo, de pescado. Quando um navio não é capaz de chegar a um determinado local, utiliza-se o Batel, pois, por causa de seu tamanho, é quase sempre possível sua passagem em locais pequenos. A finalidade de um Batel assemelha-se a de um barco, canoa ou bote, tornando estes sinônimos de Batel. A única diferença entre os termos é a época em que foram utilizados - enquanto canoa e bote são termos mais atuais, batel é mais antigo...

https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batel
Ship's boats are utility boats carried by larger vessels to act as tenders, among other roles. Boats had different names depending on hull form, rig, size and role during the Age of Sail, this nomenclature persisting to the present, especially in military circles, long after most distinctions have disappeared.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship's_boat


Portuguese is pretty close to Latin and "batel" is likely to be a ship's boat...

Saudações náuticas af

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