Medieval Latin.

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dorsetUK
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Re: Medieval Latin.

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Edward II and the Fieschi letter, ‘a right old can of worms’.

Many people would start with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fieschi_Letter which IMO is too brief, poorly referenced – both in the number of, and the fact 3 of the 4 are from Ian Mortimer, who is convinced that Edward survived. Having said that, it does avoid most of the hyperbole around this situation.

Having mentioned Ian Mortimer. http://www.ianmortimer.com/EdwardII/death.htm

Largely on his side, Kathryn Warner. https://edwardthesecond.blogspot.com/20 ... ments.html

https://theauramalaproject.wordpress.co ... hi-letter/

http://www.eremosantalbertodibutrio.it/ ... 14&lang=en

Should you prefer a fight, sorry, discussion.
https://www.historyextra.com/period/med ... y-murdered

Mortimer defends himself http://www.ianmortimer.com/essays/inconvenientfact.pdf and http://www.ianmortimer.com/essays/uncertainties.htm

However to get the full view you need to read their books. How about a review by Jonathan Sumption. https://www.theguardian.com/books/2003/ ... ianreview8

For other views there’s https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=nr1 ... er&f=false

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=lSY ... ed&f=false

https://www.bgas.org.uk/tbgas_bg/v126/bg126139.pdf

And many many others, including things written back in the 1300’s e.g. https://quod.lib.umich.edu/c/cme/APG153 ... =fulltext
Middle English – as it gets called.

Phew. Jon.

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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by absque fenestris »

Hi Jon

Indeed, these are "some" web links...

Thank you. a.f.
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Re: Medieval Latin.

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absque fenestris wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:06 am
Hi Jon

Indeed, these are "some" web links...

Thank you. a.f.
Sorry a.f., I do get carried away at times!

If you can stand any more, just ask. :shock:

Jon

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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by absque fenestris »

Further information about the decease or disappearance of a certain Mr. Plantagenet, Henry (25 April 1284 - ?) is gladly and conscientiously received. A certain "Isabella" has also aroused our increased interest.

  • Myne Fru de Ilsebill
    will nich so, as ik wol will...
  • Myne Maa de Heinerich
    peinlich ist er, peiniglich...

Many thanks in advance.
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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by absque fenestris »

coincidences...

Deaths 1327
January 16 – Nikephoros Choumnos, Byzantine scholar and statesman (b. 1250 or 1255)
January 29 – Adolf, Count Palatine of the Rhine (b. 1300)
March 15 – Albert of Schwarzburg, German grand preceptor of the Knights Hospitaller
April 9 – Walter Stewart, 6th High Steward of Scotland (b. 1293)
May 28 – Robert Baldock, Lord Privy Seal and Lord Chancellor of England
May 29 – Jens Grand, Danish archbishop (b. c. 1260)
July 4 – Stefano Visconti, Milanese nobleman
August 25 – Demasq Kaja, Ilkhanate member of the Chobanid Family
September 1 – Foulques de Villaret, French Grand Master of the Knights Hospitaller
September 21 – King Edward II of England (murdered; b. 1284)
September 26 – Cecco d'Ascoli, Italian encyclopaedist, physician and poet (b. 1257)
October 20 – Teresa d'Entença, Countess of Urgell (b. 1300)
October 27 – Elizabeth de Burgh, queen of Robert the Bruce
November – Chupan, Chobanid prince of the Ilkhanate
November 2 or November 5 – King James II of Aragon (b. 1267)
December 19 – Agnes of France, Duchess of Burgundy


hic sunt leones

Image

Yes, exactly 3 pieces... There was something... a monastery... near Alessandria?

Eremo di Sant’Alberto di Butrio.jpg

The action of Umberto Eco's novel The Name of the Rose takes place during this year, 1327. Eco was from Alessandria. Rereading? But certainly.

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Re: Medieval Latin.

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Hi af

In your interesting list of deaths, one name really jumped out at me – Cerco d’Ascoli - and then you mentioned "The Name of the Rose", which I’m watching at the moment.

To me this is a fascinating period in History, as, when the ‘Romans’ left ‘Britain’ c400, so began, what used to be called, ‘The Dark Ages’. Luckily, due to Archaeologists and Historians, it most certainly wasn’t, but from c400 until c1200 – I’ll say ‘Britain’, but it was probably ‘Europe’ – had little idea of classical Greek or Roman ‘Science and Logic’ and no idea of ‘Indian’, ‘Persian’ and ‘Chinese’, Science and Logic.

Approx 1200, ‘Europe’ or ‘the Church’ or ‘we’, crusaded in ‘Spain’ to expel the ‘Muslims’ and in Cordoba found an absolutely amazing Library stuffed full of ‘classical’ texts, and ‘we’ or ‘Europe’ suddenly started to learn a hell of a lot.

A bit before 1300, Marco Polo ‘discovered’ ‘Asia’, and ‘Europe’ got another dose of learning – and Spices! However, ‘the Church’ didn’t like all these new-fangled ideas, which challenged their world view – and power – so started to suppress such thoughts, branding them heretical and excommunicating anyone who supported them, and of course, burning a few of these ‘radicals, e.g d’Ascoli. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cecco_d%27Ascoli

Which is why I’m finding “The Name of the Rose” so interesting. Logic and Science verses hundreds of years of ‘belief’. Plus, it’s well acted and the story is developing nicely and ‘spookily’.

JIC - ‘Britain’, ‘Europe’ etc didn’t exist as ‘we’ know them, ‘back then’, so I’m trying to show the approximate Geographical area. ‘The Church’ was ‘the church’, as in ‘Europe’ there was one church, and the pope was as powerful as any king, until – opinions vary – c1300, plus or minus 50 years.

With luck :roll: a few links to follow.

Jon.

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Re: Medieval Latin.

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Hi af - ANOTHER tangent!
absque fenestris wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:29 am
Others watch TV, I like reading history - in Montségur e.g. I even understand history in French ...
Montségur - are you talking about the castle on the hill?

If you are, then I've just found this http://etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/25467/. I haven't read it yet, but it might be interesting.

My own interest is twofold - back in '91, I saw the 'castle on the hill', but it was raining and I was cold, so pointed my motorcycle north, and found some sun up around Toulouse. Later, as I became more interested in History, so I started looking at Simon de Montfort, whose dad had been central in the 'Albigensian Crusade' - as the church flexed its muscles - again.

2003, or thereabouts, I stopped in Albi for a couple of days - lovely place.

Anyhoo, the reason for my tangent was that I was looking for Lisa Benzs PhD Thesis and they've redesigned the site and I got distracted :wink: However, you may be able to find it without getting distracted, or it's available on https://independent.academia.edu/LisaBenzStJohn and is a damned good place to start with medieval Queens.

Should that link fail, then you'd have to register with https://www.academia.edu/. You'll get pestered with their suggestions that 'you may be interested in this' emails, but only with 'stuff' from their site.

Hope this is useful, Jon.

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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by absque fenestris »

Hi Jon

Yes, I like the Pyrenees and the Cathar castles have impressed me greatly. For comparison, an alpine variant that was my workplace 35 years ago.

Image

Image

The time around 1300 also fascinates me, especially the fact that remote, rural mini-structures such as Andorra or the three Swiss founding cantons were created and survived. This was not to be taken for granted in the feudal environment of the High Middle Ages, and such efforts were usually suppressed without any problems with the kind assistance of the clergy.

Thanks for the further links. Well, I'll have to register for better or worse.
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Re: Medieval Latin.

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Hi af

Thanks for those photos, that top left 'castle on the hill' picture is what I have in my mind, although wetter and colder.

I'm a little less 'distracted' this morning, so here goes ....

Lisa Benz. Queens http://etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/14154/1/558569.pdf

Kathryn Warner. Edward II https://www.amazon.co.uk/Edward-II-Unco ... 1445650541

J R S - Seymour – Phillips. Edward II https://yalebooks.co.uk/display.asp?k=9780300178029

Roy Martin Haines. Edward II. https://www.amazon.co.uk/King-Edward-II ... 0773531572

And then three others that discuss what happened in more general terms, where Roger Mortimer is generally seen as the ‘big baddy’. In my mind, wasn’t.

Paul Dryburgh. The Career of Roger Mortimer. https://research-information.bristol.ac ... 220713.pdf

Ian Mortimer. The Greatest Traitor. The Life of Sir Roger Mortimer. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Greatest-Trait ... 0099552221

Dryburgh and Mortimer were writing at the same time, and know each other, and have somewhat differing views of what happened – but that’s the fun of History.

David Anthony Harding, takes a non – or less - partisan view. The regime of Isabella and Mortimer 1326-1330. http://etheses.dur.ac.uk/7483/

JIC – Apart from Warner, Mortimer and Harding, those authors are all ‘part of the system’, Professors, Heads of …. , etc. Mortimer and Warner are both ‘private’ Historians, whereas Harding seems to have written his thesis and then disappeared from the world of History.

Have fun!

Jon

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Re: Medieval Latin.

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Hi Jon
Thank you very much. My digital library is now enriched with a few large books.
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Re: Medieval Latin.

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absque fenestris wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 7:45 am
Hi Jon
Thank you very much. My digital library is now enriched with a few large books.
I've gone stark ravingly bonkers :shock:

I just wrote - Hi af, your boot is now on my other foot.

Oh well! When you mentioned 'cantons', I thought - there's another thing I know absolutely nothing about - just a quick read on Wikipedia and, streuth, you have an interesting history.

I've heard about your 'La Tène culture', but thought I'd start here https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm ... id=2485351 and then here http://uniset.ca/microstates2/liliputians.pdf and see where they take me.

Thanks, Jon

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Re: Medieval Latin.

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Hi Jon

The Mountain Republics is a good summary. As always, the devil is in the details. The good mountain farmers and herdsmen were much more interconnected and politically entangled than official history would have us believe.
Already in the times of Frederick II (Holy Roman Emperor) they were very successful in sailing back and forth between the Emperor and Pope Innocent III. One valley supported the Emperor, the other valley the Pope, and they probably laughed and whimpered when they drank the profits. Also very practical even if you wanted meat on Fridays - you yourself or those in the neighboring valley were just excommunicated...

Here we come back to the title of this thread: some of these mountainers must have spoken and written medieval Latin quite well.
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Re: Medieval Latin.

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absque fenestris wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 12:36 pm
The Mountain Republics is a good summary.
Thanks for that, I like to start with an overview - it lets me 'get my head around' an idea.
... the devil is in the details.

And thank God - whoops. That's where the Devil belongs.
The good mountain farmers and herdsmen were much more interconnected and politically entangled than official history would have us believe.
Good news.
Already in the times of Frederick II (Holy Roman Emperor) they were very successful in sailing back and forth between the Emperor and Pope Innocent III. One valley supported the Emperor, the other valley the Pope, and they probably laughed and whimpered when they drank the profits. Also very practical even if you wanted meat on Fridays - you yourself or those in the neighboring valley were just excommunicated...
Great - in some ways, far more advanced than we tend to think, but then, they had their beliefs and we have ours.
Here we come back to the title of this thread: some of these mountainers must have spoken and written medieval Latin quite well.
:lol: and so, the needle returns to the start of the song.

All the best, Jon.

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Re: Medieval Latin.

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Hi Jon
dorsetUK wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:04 pm
Great - in some ways, far more advanced than we tend to think, but then, they had their beliefs and we have ours.
Also the so-called Dark-Ages were astonishing - think of Scandinavian families who could offer their offspring a wide range of leisure activities: Cultural stays in Lindisfarne or Paris, wine tastings in the Rhineland and city tours from the North Sea to the Mediterranean, but also adventure trips to the north where the cubs could watch polar bears and Eskimos.
In a hick town near Oslo, stories were told - possibly on the same evening - of the red-haired cousin in Brattahlíð as well as of strange Byzantines who react somewhat spicy to surprise visits.

They were cosmopolitan.


Another who was very active and cosmopolitan throughout his life - here the very careful version:

http://www.basslabor.ch/PDF_Downloads/m ... omberg.pdf

Formulated here a bit more daring:

https://impuls-1315.com/werner-von-homb ... urschweiz/

...and executed en détail. I have read quite a bit of nonsense about this 13th and said clientele, but this variant is at least conceivable:

https://impuls-1315.com/waldstaette-asy ... pelritter/



Here is the monastery, which Umberto Eco probably used as a template for The Name of the Rose - Edward II might have been visiting incognito...

Image

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacra_di_San_Michele
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Re: Medieval Latin.

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Hi af

Thanks for that glorious photo - I must renew my Passport.
absque fenestris wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 10:22 pm
... the so-called Dark-Ages were astonishing - think of Scandinavian families who could offer their offspring a wide range of leisure activities ...
My cap is most happily 'doffed'. :lol:

But I have a personal gripe, as 'popular' historians always say that the Vikings ravaged places such as Lindisfarne, whereas 'real' historians tell me that in 787 or 9, in Portland, Dorset, ... came first three ships of the Northmen from the land of robbers. The reve then rode thereto, and would drive them to the king's town; for he knew not what they were; and there was he slain. These were the first ships of the Danish men that sought the land of the English nation.

Or ... three ships from Hordaland landed in Portland and the king’s reeve, Beaduheard from Dorchester, was killed when he attempted to collect customs dues.

But, of course, we don't actually know who started the violence, and as the source of that is The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, then obviously, we were the 'goodies'. :oops:

Then in in 793 after another 'visit', Alcuin, Bishop of York wrote to Bishop Higebald of Lindisfarne ... the heathen have polluted the sanctuaries of God, and shed the blood of the saints around the altar, and trampled the bodies of the saints in the temple like dung in the street. Where can the churches of Britain place their trust if St Cuthbert and so great a company of saints do not defend their own church?

It's 'likely' that by 'saints', he meant 'monks', and if we expected the monks to fight, then that could change things a bit.

Thanks for the links, I had a pleasant, but rather hectic, weekend and haven't read them yet - maybe tonight.

Jon

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Re: Medieval Latin.

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Hi Jon

About the Monastery:

https://mauroatlarge.blogspot.com/2009/ ... ti-ai.html
In 1076 the bishop of Turin Cuniberto chased the abbot Benedetto II and his monks from the monastery; there were devastations for a serious fire under the abbot Rodolfo di Mombello (1325-1359); English gangs of the adventurer William Bosons, in the pay of Philip of Achaia, sacked the place ...
At least one English visitor was there ...

About the peculiarity of flying in the Middle Ages:
In a period when the Susa Valley was crossed by mercenaries and conquerors dedicated to all sorts of raids, the terrified people took refuge on Mount Pirchiriano, where the Sacra di San Michele is still located. During one of these incursions, a considerable group of valleys took refuge in the religious complex hoping to find protection there: among them, there was also a young woman named Alda, so beautiful as to be called La bell'Alda.
After looting the houses of the villages in the valley, the soldiers followed in the footsteps of the fugitives, arriving at the Sacra: here they sacked everything possible, killed the monks and the internally displaced persons and outraged women.
Alda managed to escape the violence by taking refuge in the tower that still bears her name: she began to pray intensely to the Madonna and, when the soldiers reached her, recommended her soul to the Virgin by throwing herself into the void, rather than ending up in the clutches of the attackers. Her faith so alive saved her: Our Lady sent to her rescue two angels who took Alda's hand and accompanied her in the flight, depositing her gently on the ground.
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leggenda_della_Bell'Alda



Edward II also certainly needed some money. Lombardy, especially Milan, was a good place to go. But discretion?
Maybe a monk was sent to Lake Lucerne or Lake Zurich? The monastery of Einsiedeln lies in between.



Hermitage of St. Albert Butrio:
Hermitage of St. Albert Butrio
A beautiful chapel on the hills of the Oltrepò Pavese claims to house the tomb of King Edward II of England.
https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/her ... ert-butrio

http://www.eremosantalbertodibutrio.it/ ... hp?lang=it

https://laprovinciapavese.gelocal.it/te ... 1.16373004
... ...Organized by the theme of the Auramala Project (a group of scholars of all disciplines who is trying to prove that the king Edward II did not die assassinated in England in 1327 but actually died many years later from the parts of Cecima) ... ...we move in front of the tomb that the legend attributes to the English king Edward II to tell the public the story on which the Auramala Project is investigating and to follow Ivan Fowler of the cultural association "The World of Tels" will be available to those present who want to receive updates on the search status.

"The official story - explains Fowler - tells that King Edward II was killed in 1327 in England by the assassins sent by his wife, yet a few steps away from the hermitage of St. Albert there is a tomb that local folklore attributes precisely to that English ruler. In addition to the tomb, in support of this thesis there would also be the "Letter Fieschi", a document written in 1337 to the son of Edward II in which the papal notary Emanuele Fieschi explained to the sovereign that his father had not died, but that he had managed to escape and to find shelter in a monastery near Cecima. At the moment the genealogical investigations have reconstructed the lineage of Edward II until the end of the eighteenth century, but we hope continuing with the work of finding a descendant still alive ».

Translated from Italian
Interior view of the Hermitage:

Image
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Re: Medieval Latin.

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Hi af

Guglielmo Bosons o Bosson [Belgium?]

Sulla fine del 1367, dunque, Filippo, tagliando corto ornai alle esitazioni, si era accordato e fatto lega con la « società dei genovesi », una compagnia di ventura guidata da un condottiero tedesco che si faceva chiamare il monaco di Hecz, e con un'altra compagnia di inglesi capitanata da un certo Guglielmo Bosons o Bosson ; due di quei tanti capitani di ventura, mezzo soldati e mezzo masnadieri che in quel tempo desolavano 1' Italia, andando ad offrire a chi meglio pagava la propria spada e il proprio sangue con la spada e il sangue di parecchie centinaia di predoni che obbedivano ai loro ordini.

Demned shame all these demned foreigners don't speak 'my' language :oops:

https://ia802502.us.archive.org/9/items ... 00mall.pdf

and https://ia801905.us.archive.org/18/item ... ana_33.pdf

Think I'll know what I'll be searching for tomorrow :roll:
absque fenestris wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:05 pm
Hermitage of St. Albert Butrio
A beautiful chapel on the hills of the Oltrepò Pavese claims to house the tomb of King Edward II of England.
That's another stunning photo, and I think that the reason I find the art and architecture so interesting, is because we did away with ours after Henry VIIIs reformation. All we get is little glimpses of what was a unifying force for nearly a thousand years. [In the UK].

The Auramala project is interesting, but finding relatives of dead royalty isn't too difficult, and then add on that many people were born 'out of wedlock', and most of us may be related to kings and queens.

The idea that Edward II did survive is fascinating and I'd love to believe it, but it goes just a little too far for me, as the, mainly circumstantial, evidence around his death outweighs the, largely circumstantial, evidence around his survival. IMO.

Thanks again, Jon.

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Re: Medieval Latin.

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dorsetUK wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 3:32 pm
...
Guglielmo Bosons o Bosson [Belgium?]

Sulla fine del 1367, dunque, Filippo, tagliando corto ornai alle esitazioni, si era accordato e fatto lega con la « società dei genovesi », una compagnia di ventura guidata da un condottiero tedesco che si faceva chiamare il monaco di Hecz, e con un'altra compagnia di inglesi capitanata da un certo Guglielmo Bosons o Bosson ; due di quei tanti capitani di ventura, mezzo soldati e mezzo masnadieri che in quel tempo desolavano 1' Italia, andando ad offrire a chi meglio pagava la propria spada e il proprio sangue con la spada e il sangue di parecchie centinaia di predoni che obbedivano ai loro ordini.
...
Hi Jon

But that sounds very topical: company captains, friendly or unfriendly business takeovers, help with special means and ultimately the satisfaction of the actual owner.
Crypto AG, in Steinhausen, Zug - comes to my mind. I wonder why?

...

At least the Upper Italian Tourist Association should like me: You, the opener, is planning your vacation there - and I'm also interested in the northern Italian monasteries. It's the question of how customer growth goes hand in hand with copyright infringement and how many readers of this forum are encouraged to visit Northern Italy...
Questions about questions of the 21st century. Yes, precisely: the Gross National Product.
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Re: Medieval Latin.

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Hi af

I replied to you this morning! Guess I previewed and forgot to post – oh dear!
But that sounds very topical: company captains, friendly or unfriendly business takeovers, help with special means and ultimately the satisfaction of the actual owner.
Crypto AG, in Steinhausen, Zug - comes to my mind. I wonder why?

At least the Upper Italian Tourist Association should like me: You, the opener, is planning your vacation there - and I'm also interested in the northern Italian monasteries. It's the question of how customer growth goes hand in hand with copyright infringement and how many readers of this forum are encouraged to visit Northern Italy...
Questions about questions of the 21st century. Yes, precisely: the Gross National Product.
Tricky isn’t it. Dorsets main ‘industry’ is tourism – Corfe castle, Kingstom Lacey, Jurassic coast, beaches, lovely little tea shops, etc. We farm a lot, but on a small scale. Our heavier industries are Sunseeker yachts – which are hardly relevant to most Dorset folk – but do employ a lot of people. Then there’s Cobham which we’ve just sold to the …. OK, best stop now, but National interests and local interests do seem to clash at times.

I ran that 'historical' quote through Google translate and got this;

At the end of 1367, therefore, Filippo, by cutting short on the hesitations, had agreed and made ties with the "Genoese society", a venture company led by a German leader who called himself the monk of Hecz, and with a other English company led by a certain William Bosons or Bosson; two of those many captains of fortune, half soldiers and half masnadieri who at that time desolated Italy, going to offer those who best paid their sword and blood with the sword and blood of several hundred marauders who obeyed their orders.

Ms/Mr G/W Bosons/Bosson, possibly from Essex, turns out to be a corporal in the ‘White Company’. A band of, mainly English, diplomats who toured France and then northern Italy searching out employment where they then negotiated peace between squabbling factions. But how he got involved, as above, is beyond me.

A bit more on them https://vanderbilt.academia.edu/WilliamCaferro

https://ia802706.us.archive.org/19/item ... aduoft.pdf

I was down in SE France 5 or 6 years ago, and it was only in the evening, when I checked where I’d been that day, that I found out that I’d seen the Franco/Italian border, but, as I’ve seen the Mediterranean, I haven’t dipped a toe in it – yet.

Jon. SUBMIT it IDIOT.

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absque fenestris
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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by absque fenestris »

Hi Jon
dorsetUK wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:02 am
...
Ms/Mr G/W Bosons/Bosson, possibly from Essex, turns out to be a corporal in the ‘White Company’. A band of, mainly English, diplomats who toured France and then northern Italy searching out employment where they then negotiated peace between squabbling factions. But how he got involved, as above, is beyond me.
Yes, diplomatic services have always been very much appreciated. The description of the White Company now leads to the reign of Edward III, but is also interesting:

https://weaponsandwarfare.com/2015/08/1 ... e-company/

Mr. Bosons doesn't show up, but Hecz seems to be Mr. Stertz
The White Company first organized itself under the leadership of a German knight, Albert Stertz, who spoke Italian and had served in Italy before... ...


Where I am currently looking for more documents is this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_of_1315–1317
A number of documented incidents show the extent of the famine. Edward II of England stopped at St Albans on 10 August 1315 and had difficulty finding bread for himself and his entourage; it was a rare occasion in which the King of England was unable to eat.
...
For the next several decades, after the famine, Europe took on a tougher and more violent edge; it became an even less amicable place than during the twelfth and the thirteenth centuries. This could be seen across all segments of society, perhaps most strikingly in the way warfare was conducted in the fourteenth century during the Hundred Years' War, when chivalry ended, as opposed to the twelfth and the thirteenth centuries when nobles were more likely to die by accident in tournament games than on the field of battle.

The famine also undermined confidence in medieval governments for their failure to deal with its resulting crises.
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