Standard keyboards are poor quality these days

[Dark Owl]

I buy them for a dollar or two at the Goodwill stores

Is that what we in the UK might call a "charity shop" (staffed by volunteers, where donated cast-offs are sold on with the proceeds benefitting the relevant charitable organisation such as Oxfam, Blue Cross, and many others)?

[GS3]

I buy them for a dollar or two at the Goodwill stores

Is that what we in the UK might call a "charity shop" (staffed by volunteers, where donated cast-offs are sold on with the proceeds benefitting the relevant charitable organisation such as Oxfam, Blue Cross, and many others)?

Yes, exactly.

[GS3]

That's an easy one to answer: supply and demand. Supply and demand is always the answer.

That's too naive. As a stock phrase, it refers to the selling price of an existing supply and takes no account of future decisions to manufacture more (or not).

I disagree. Buyers and sellers in the market make use and take into account all the relevant information they have. Demand (and price) can go up for a product that will cease being manufactured. This is almost always the case with RAM. You almost always pay more for older RAM than for current (not latest) types.

Supply and demand in a free market are what influence prices going up or down. Market price is defined as that price at which a seller who is willing to sell but not forced to sell and a buyer who is willing to buy but not forced to buy agree to the exchange. Because that is the definition of market price (in a free market) you would have to prove the market is not really free at all and buyers and/or sellers are somehow coerced and not free. this, of course, can happen with monopolies, price fixing, etc. but I would have to be convinced that the market for quality keyboards is not really free.

Many people believe sellers are "making too much money" and therefore the government should step in and set lower prices. When this happens inevitably there is a shortage of whatever is being regulated and prices go up, not down. But people in their simplicity believe a government regulation is all it takes to lower prices. If you want $200 keyboards to go for $400 in the black market all you have to do is have the government mandate they can only be sold at $100 maximum. That same day they have all disappeared from the free market and have entered the black market where bootleggers, usually in conspiracy with legislators, make a handsome profit.

Why aren't more manufacturers entering the lucrative market of high quality keyboards? Maybe because it is not so lucrative?

[Dark Owl]

Market price is defined as that price at which a seller who is willing to sell but not forced to sell and a buyer who is willing to buy but not forced to buy agree to the exchange.

That presumes the product exists. If the product exists, not selling it represents a loss so there is an incentive to sell for whatever price the market dictates (to minimise the loss). If the product is yet to be manufactured, a potential loss is a disincentive to start production.

According to you, low demand should raise price and encourage supply - but if the demand is so low it is less than an economic batch, there will be no supply rather than low supply, and the only buyers will be those who can afford bespoke.

Why aren't more manufacturers entering the lucrative market of high quality keyboards? Maybe because it is not so lucrative?

Established manufacturers can pitch a quality product to the professional market effectively unconstrained by cost. The market is too small for the others to make it worthwhile.

[antikythera]

GS3 - Where did I say I expect a $20 keyboard to be the same as a $200 keyboard? I didn't at any point in this topic. That is something you decided for yourself and you could NOT be wider of the mark.

I fully understand the concept of supply and demand, if I did not I would not have a profitable business.

Your attempt at instigating arguments in this topic is NOT appreciated. It seems to be your modus operandi on this forum so do not bother answering me because I have added you to the ignored user list.

[GS3]

Well, that was unexpected. I was definitely not trying to pick an argument with anybody. My apologies if it came across that way.

Don't take life so seriously, nobody gets out alive anyway!

[Dark Owl]

As a stock phrase, it refers to the selling price of an existing supply and takes no account of future decisions to manufacture more (or not).

I have now realised the simplest way to express this is to acknowledge the "law of supply and demand" applies to commodities, not assume it applies to manufactured products.

[RollyShed]

GS3 - Where did I say I expect a $20 keyboard to be the same as a $200 keyboard? I didn't at any point in this topic. That is something you decided for yourself and you could NOT be wider of the mark.

I read GS3's remark as a question "There is a demand for $200 keyboards at $20 price?"
OK, he did put a question mark at the end and if quickly read it might look the other way and be read as statement but.....
I took it as a question, not a statement.

GS3 seemed to be talking about what users were prepared to pay (for something that worked), not about quality especially.

As for keyboards, a quite a few round here, HP, and Dell mainly and they don't have any marks rubbed off and they all keep going.

[Dark Owl]

I went in again (Trust keyboard mentioned above):

They won't have a scissor spring underneath that's a different style that does not need the rubber domes to work which makes them ideal for very confined spaces like laptop keyboards.

Instead, there will be a hollow plastic shaft pushing on the rubber domes with a diameter that matches exactly the indented ring on the top of the domes.

Not exactly, but close enough. The shafts have tynes which latch the button into the assembly.

(On laptops I have examined, the scissor mechanisms have no springiness in them. Ditto a cheap wireless keyboard with scissors - it has domes and a membrane contact sheet.)

That bar spring is used to keep the longer keys level regardless of where you press them as well as provide some extra bounce back and resistance.

The space bar does have a parallel motion arm, but again there is no springiness in it. The pink dome is more resilient than the other domes, and does not collapse as easily. I don't think any of the other keys have a bar either, relying on the plastic guide shaft.

[antikythera]

The rebound or springiness from the motion arm comes only when the key is inserted properly and the motion opposing ends are under the plastic lugs. Yes indeed the key caps should have retention tines on the tips of the shafts or you'd be forever picking them up off the desk and floor

Your keyboard is actually similar in construction to another I own, a CMStorm branded blue backlit 'gaming' keyboard. It's not suitable for gaming really though, there is no anti-ghosting or rollover and the key response times are no better than the Targus. The only keys on CMStorm that have motion arm are space, right shift and enter above it even though there are lugs for more under the other larger keys.

[151tom]

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[Flemur]

I also buy good keyboards in thrift stores, the main shortcomings are that it's gotten harder to find good ones, and they almost always have PS/2 connections so converter.

[GS3]

I also buy good keyboards in thrift stores, the main shortcomings are that it's gotten harder to find good ones, and they almost always have PS/2 connections so converter.

I have the opposite experience: most are USB and PS/2 are getting more difficult to find. And I search for PS/2 because all my desktops have PS/2 connectors.

Interestingly in one box I have a USB keyboard connected and is the one I use but also a PS/2 which sits behind the monitor. I forget the issue exactly but I seem to remember the BIOS requires the PS/2 or something...

Some keyboards are hard on the fingers if you have to tap the keys too hard. Just have to try them for a while and see how they go.

I always have several keyboards in waiting. Just buy them when I come across them. In general, they last for years.

[151tom]

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[carum carvi]

I agree that the standard keyboards are quite lousy these days, but I didnt notice this until I needed a new keyboard recently. But finally I simply bought another cheap one, because I did manage to type on that lousy older keyboard for years and I didnt want to pay up to 100 dollars or more. And I dont use the keyboard a lot anyway. I am now typing on a second hand Thinkpad T430 laptop, which has an excellent built-in keyboard.

I must say that several forumusers must have some pretty old hardware running, when they say they still have PS2 connectors. Those old keyboards were pretty sturdy. Nice to read that people still have use / need them...

[antikythera]

Indeed, they were built like tanks back in the day. Unicomp still make the old IBM M style buckling spring keyboards to order, so that is not a bad option for people living in USA keen to get the old faithful again with either a USB or PS/2 cable. They are actually competitively priced against mass produced mechanical gaming keyboards and of course Cherry's own MX boards which are the only real alternative these days even though Unicomp hand build them to order. If shipping because of import taxes weren't so expensive I'd order one without hesitation.

https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/Feature ... ts/UB40P4A

[151tom]

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[antikythera]

Some new boards still have one PS/2 connector on the backplate.

[151tom]

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[antikythera]

Exactly my point, you can use an old keyboard or mouse still but unless you use a PS/2 splitter cable or PS/2 to USB adaptor for one device, that single port allows one or other only.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/StarTech-com-K ... B000067SLZ