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Re: Grammar Pet Peeve

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:16 am
by absque fenestris
The symbols are not displayed in GIMP or in LO Writer.
Quite a non-political question: I managed the above somehow and I am not sure whether I would have used "nor" instead of "or" ... ?


For comparison, the completely different syntax in German:

Weder in GIMP noch in LO Writer werden die Symbole dargestellt.



P.S. a more elegant expression would of course also be very much appreciated ... ...

Re: Grammar Pet Peeve

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:49 am
by jjp2145-oldtimer
absque fenestris wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:16 am
The symbols are not displayed in GIMP or in LO Writer.
Quite a non-political question: I managed the above somehow and I am not sure whether I would have used "nor" instead of "or" ... ?


For comparison, the completely different syntax in German:

Weder in GIMP noch in LO Writer werden die Symbole dargestellt.
As far as I can tell the only rule about the nor or or distinction in modern English, at least American English, is that neither takes a nor and either takes an or. Everything else has been lost to the discretion of the writer.

So: "The symbols are displayed neither in Gimp nor LO Writer."
And: "The symbols are not displayed in either Gimp or LO Writer."

Both of these sentences are technically correct, but both seem odd to my ear. The original gets the point across quicker.

Trying to read nor as a negative so that "The symbols are not displayed in Gimp nor LO Writer" is a double negative will not prevent you from tripping on the idioms.

Re: Grammar Pet Peeve

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:01 am
by absque fenestris
jjp2145-oldtimer wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:49 am
absque fenestris wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:16 am
The symbols are not displayed in GIMP or in LO Writer.
Quite a non-political question: I managed the above somehow and I am not sure whether I would have used "nor" instead of "or" ... ?


For comparison, the completely different syntax in German:

Weder in GIMP noch in LO Writer werden die Symbole dargestellt.
As far as I can tell the only rule about the nor or or distinction in modern English, at least American English, is that neither takes a nor and either takes an or. Everything else has been lost to the discretion of the writer.

So: "The symbols are displayed neither in Gimp nor LO Writer."
And: "The symbols are not displayed in either Gimp or LO Writer."

Both of these sentences are technically correct, but both seem odd to my ear. The original gets the point across quicker.

Trying to read nor as a negative so that "The symbols are not displayed in Gimp nor LO Writer" is a double negative will not prevent you from tripping on the idioms.
Thank you very much! Exactly - I've read neither and either so many times - but never associated it with my spelling ...

Here also the sophisticated algorithms of Google Translate and DeepL seems to give up their hyperintelligence ... ...

Re: Grammar Pet Peeve

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:14 am
by absque fenestris
jjp2145-oldtimer wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:49 am
Both of these sentences are technically correct, but both seem odd to my ear. The original gets the point across quicker..
But now I'm a little confused ...
Was the expression I quoted actually correct and understandable?
I was pretty sure it must be wrong ...

Re: Grammar Pet Peeve

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:30 pm
by jjp2145-oldtimer
Apparently in modern usage the word "either" is not required. You cannot however, omit the word "neither" and wind up with a comprehensible sentence.

The two longer sentences that I provided are 100% correct. My reason for preferring the shorter one is stylistic at best. While I am at it, I would cut the last "in" for the sake of brevity.

Here is an odd one: I could change "The two longer sentences that I provided are 100% correct" to "The two longer sentences I provided are 100% correct," and most people would not be able to tell the difference. By changing myself to the subject of the sentence I saved a word.

Grammar is not the same thing as style, but people treat them as if they are inseparably linked.

Re: Grammar Pet Peeve

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:40 pm
by absque fenestris
jjp2145-oldtimer wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:30 pm
...
Grammar is not the same thing as style, but people treat them as if they are inseparably linked.
Correctness is so far good and right - but style is the pepper and the salt, it is ultimately what defines elegance and beauty.

Mint Cinnamon comes to mind - unobtrusive but elegant. Something that MS Windows will never ever achieve and certainly not understand - and Apple knows very well how to shoot itself in the knee again and again ...

The least of the correct cave dwellers is sheer survival - the final stage of the stylish dandy is decadence - and somewhere in between there is something called culture that simply enjoys beauty ...

Re: Grammar Pet Peeve

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:28 pm
by Portreve
absque fenestris wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:40 pm
The least of the correct cave dwellers is sheer survival - the final stage of the stylish dandy is decadence - and somewhere in between there is something called culture that simply enjoys beauty ...
Which helps explain where the Jedi Order went wrong.

Re: Grammar Pet Peeve

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:24 pm
by kelevra
I just watched an old episode of Criminal Minds, they called their Un Sub weird because he/she did not use contractions. It has been a few years but I am sure when I took technical writing, contractions were a no no. I have also seen a few references (unable to locate) about the strangeness of lack of contractions when writing or speaking.

I am not the most elegant or even concise writer but I do try to avoid most contractions. I just found that most people understand 'I have' as compared to 'I've'. Especially when it comes to exchanges with English as a second/third language respondents.

Seeing as this topic started as a grammar related idea, I thought I would ask. Are contractions a necessary part of English writing and am I "weird" for not using them?

Re: Grammar Pet Peeve

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:50 pm
by RollyShed
I hope this doesn't detract from what has gone before, but a question, and it involves writing, one or two spaces after a full stop? I always use one but came across a writer a day ago, originally a teacher, who insisted on two spaces.

Narrow columns of justified print become a mess with two spaces so obviously only one space should be used.

https://www.writing-skills.com/one-space-two-full-stop

"By about 1950, most house styles had dropped the double space and agreed to use a single space in all instances. Today, almost every major style guide recommends this,..."

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-styl ... 37646.html

"Reading speed only improved marginally, the paper found and only for the 21 (out of 60) “two spacers”, who naturally typed with two spaces between sentences. The majority of one spacers, on the other hand, read at pretty much the same speed either way. And reading comprehension was unaffected for everyone, regardless of how many spaces followed a period."

https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/24/2123 ... ace-debate

"Microsoft Word now flags double spaces as errors, ending the great space debate"

Re: Grammar Pet Peeve

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:30 pm
by slipstick
RollyShed wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:50 pm
I hope this doesn't detract from what has gone before, but a question, and it involves writing, one or two spaces after a full stop? I always use one but came across a writer a day ago, originally a teacher, who insisted on two spaces.
I was taught in school to use two spaces (USA circa late 1950's, early 1960's) and have done so ever since.
RollyShed wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:50 pm
"Microsoft Word now flags double spaces as errors, ending the great space debate"
That's all I need to know to continue using two spaces!

Re: Grammar Pet Peeve

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:34 pm
by MrEen
slipstick wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:30 pm
I was taught in school to use two spaces (USA circa late 1950's, early 1960's)
20 years later, the same for me.
slipstick wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:30 pm
That's all I need to know to continue using two spaces!
Damn good argument there! Although I admit I'm now using one space only. The extra space is ignored almost everywhere now, which convinced me to change.

For example, look at your post here. Notice the forum software has removed your second spaces? They still exist if you click on the quote thingie.

Re: Grammar Pet Peeve

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:26 am
by Lady Fitzgerald
kelevra wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:24 pm
...Are contractions a necessary part of English writing and am I "weird" for not using them?
What's weird is not using modern contractions and using ones from the 16th Century ('tis, 'twas, etc.). I used to work Renaissance Festivals and, to make it easier to avoid using period inappropriate contractions while working a Festival, I strove to not use them in everyday speech (with a fair degree of success). Of course, 16th Century contractions "snuck" into my everyday speech (and continues to do so). I have slipped back into using them much of the time now that I no longer work Ren Fests or even attend them anymore.

Contractions are considered inappropriate for formal writing (or, at least were back when I was still in school back half a century ago).

Re: Grammar Pet Peeve

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:58 am
by GS3
MrEen wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:34 pm
For example, look at your post here. Notice the forum software has removed your second spaces? They still exist if you click on the quote thingie.
I believe it is not the forum software but that all HTML rendering has removed extra spaces since the very beginning of HTML. I remember coding pages manually and if I wanted more than one space to display I would insert non-breaking spaces.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-breaking_space

A second common application of non-breaking spaces is in plain text file formats such as SGML, HTML, TeX and LaTeX, whose rendering engines are programmed to treat sequences of whitespace characters (space, newline, tab, form feed, etc.) as if they were a single character (but this behavior can be overridden). Such "collapsing" of whitespace allows the author to neatly arrange the source text using line breaks, indentation and other forms of spacing without affecting the final typeset result.[4][5]

In contrast, non-breaking spaces are not merged with neighboring whitespace characters when displayed, and can therefore be used by an author to simply insert additional visible space in the resulting output without using spans styled with peculiar values of the CSS “white-space” property. Conversely, indiscriminate use (see the recommended use in style guides), in addition to a normal space, gives extraneous space in the output.
I am mostly a two-space guy so I would follow a period with a non-breaking space and then a regular space.

Re: Grammar Pet Peeve

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:10 am
by AZgl1500
slipstick wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:30 pm


I was taught in school to use two spaces (USA circa late 1950's, early 1960's) and have done so ever since.
RollyShed wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:50 pm
"Microsoft Word now flags double spaces as errors, ending the great space debate"

.
That's all I need to know to continue using two spaces!

I am still using Word 2007 on my Win7 desktop, I refuse to be forced into Microsoft's new waves of Errors.

I use Double space after a period, as it DOES improve reading perception. . . . . . . I can prove that by including my own method of Double Space . . . . . in forums and Facebook, which strips out Double Spaces and irks me no end....
:
:
and in FB I use Double Colons:: to get the Desired Spacing Between Paragraphs.......
I have been a full Touch Typist since 1956 and I don't think anyone is going to change me now.
:
:
there, that fixes it.
.
.

Re: Grammar Pet Peeve

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:35 am
by GS3
kelevra wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:24 pm
Are contractions a necessary part of English writing and am I "weird" for not using them?
In my opinion formal writing should never use contractions. Generally I will only use them for comedic effect or when quoting someone's literal words.
"I didn't kill her!"

If people were taught to avoid using contractions in their writing we would see much less of the its/it's, "could of" and similar errors.

Re: Grammar Pet Peeve

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:09 am
by AndyMH
It will also help those where English is not their first language if you avoid contractions and colloquialisms (but I still tend to :( )

Re: Grammar Pet Peeve

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:42 am
by AZgl1500
AndyMH wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:09 am
It will also help those where English is not their first language if you avoid contractions and colloquialisms (but I still tend to :( )
Well,

English has many variations without the "local slang terms"

there is the "correct form of English" o'er here on the west side of the pond,
and then there is that weird hosh posh of nothingness on the "east side of the pond" :mrgreen:

and if you drift down below the equator, there is that weird duck sounding Anglish, that my daughter came back home with after spending some time in Adelaide, AU :roll:

Re: Grammar Pet Peeve

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:33 pm
by Lert
and if you drift down below the equator, there is that weird duck sounding Anglish, that my daughter came back home with after spending some time in Adelaide, AU
Mate, You are lucky she did not go to Kiwiland.

On the subject of double spaces, this thread is the first time I have heard of the practice. Started school in 1949. No contractions either.

Re: Grammar Pet Peeve

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:52 am
by AndyMH
Lert wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:33 pm
On the subject of double spaces, this thread is the first time I have heard of the practice. Started school in 1949. No contractions either.
Only recently managed to un-learn the practice. Think everyone who learnt to touch type on an old upright typewriter was taught this one, in my case 1974.

Re: Grammar Pet Peeve

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:13 am
by AZgl1500
AndyMH wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:52 am
Lert wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:33 pm
On the subject of double spaces, this thread is the first time I have heard of the practice. Started school in 1949. No contractions either.
Only recently managed to un-learn the practice. Think everyone who learnt to touch type on an old upright typewriter was taught this one, in my case 1974.
you are probably right Andy,

I took my Touch Typing class in 1956 or 1957 ?? and we used the heavy ROYAL typewriters that required a very strong push to get those keys down to the ribbon.

and Double Spacing after the Period, was emphasized for "proper typing etiquette"

Royal.png
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