The right decision

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The right decision

Post by kelevra »

I am liking my decision to replace my failing spinning drive with a SSD. I was waffling between a 500GB SSD and a 2TB HDD for the same price. The SSD has breathed some new life into my little old laptop. Load times and the boot time have been reduced significantly. 5yrs warranty is a boon as well. I should be able to repurpose the drive when this laptop becomes unusable. :D
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Re: The right decision

Post by Pierre »

the replacement of an older HDD is usually suggested to be replaced with an SSD,
so that was the best move.
:)
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Re: The right decision

Post by RollyShed »

kelevra wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:25 am
I am liking my decision to replace my failing spinning drive with a SSD. ... Load times and the boot time have been reduced significantly.
A recent one I did, Acer Inspire, was about 3 minutes with an HD and Win10. An SSD with Linux Mint, 21 seconds boot time.
An older laptop I did (HP?) at the same time booted in about 35 seconds.
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Re: The right decision

Post by Kadaitcha Man »

kelevra wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:25 am
I am liking my decision to replace my failing spinning drive with a SSD. I was waffling between a 500GB SSD and a 2TB HDD for the same price. The SSD has breathed some new life into my little old laptop. Load times and the boot time have been reduced significantly. 5yrs warranty is a boon as well. I should be able to repurpose the drive when this laptop becomes unusable. :D
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Re: The right decision

Post by CtrlAltDel »

Kadaitcha Man wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:13 am
kelevra wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:25 am
I am liking my decision to replace my failing spinning drive with a SSD. I was waffling between a 500GB SSD and a 2TB HDD for the same price. The SSD has breathed some new life into my little old laptop. Load times and the boot time have been reduced significantly. 5yrs warranty is a boon as well. I should be able to repurpose the drive when this laptop becomes unusable. :D
CtrlAltDel will be along shortly to abuse you.
I'm just not sure that Kelevra made the right decision in regards to durability and reliable service, not to mention longevity, in his choice of a SSD over the tried and true and respected laurels that hang on the neck of HDD's.

I mean, I have a perfectly functioning HDD in my old '96 Packard Bell that purrs like a kitten. It's 24 freaking years old and works as well as the day I purchased it. It's in storage now and not really used but, that is beside the point, it worked for a long, long, time before being retired. Over 10 years without ever being shut off, only restarted when needed.

A five year warranty? Wow. That doesn't seem like that long. I'm currently running 2X1TB HDD's, six years old now, that also reside in a computer that is never turned off and they seem primed to run fine for maybe another 20 years or so, I don't know. I don't know how long they will last; HDD's just never seem to have anything go wrong with them.

A SSD, you wake up one day and bam, it just doesn't work any longer. I hope you made the right choice, Kelevra. Sacrificing three times the storage space you could have easily had at the same price for faster boot times and faster initial load times of a few programs seems a little shortsighted, no offense.

Of course, I don't boot my computer that much at all and after I run a program once and it's in memory, it opens just as fast as it would on a SSD, so, you know. A SSD is definitely good for someone that reboots their computer many, many times a day for some reason, I guess.
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Re: The right decision

Post by RollyShed »

CtrlAltDel wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:01 am
Of course, I don't boot my computer that much at all
So your computer isn't a laptop that gets carted around and is booted up a few times a day? A laptop that is carried around also has to put up with dropping or at least some mechanical stressing.

Maybe comparing apples and oranges, as they say.

Some of us switch off everything each night to save power, and especially if away for a few days or weeks.
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Re: The right decision

Post by Moem »

CtrlAltDel wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:01 am
HDD's just never seem to have anything go wrong with them.
I hope you play in the lottery. Because you apparently are a very lucky person.
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Re: The right decision

Post by antikythera »

Good luck finding an HDD in 2020 with a longer warranty OR that is any more reliable than a 500GB or above SSD. The size of SSD purchased will last just as long as any 2.5" HDD currently on the market. The modern HDD from all manufacturers are a lot flimsier than old IDE and early SATA drives. Especially the 2.5" models. The spindle motors and head actuators are the weak links.

Seagate, WD Group brands and Toshiba are churning out absolute crud even at Enterprise Level. Yes they could get 4x the storage but also end up replacing the same drive up to 4x as often.
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Re: The right decision

Post by CtrlAltDel »

RollyShed wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:25 am
CtrlAltDel wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:01 am
Of course, I don't boot my computer that much at all
So your computer isn't a laptop that gets carted around and is booted up a few times a day? A laptop that is carried around also has to put up with dropping or at least some mechanical stressing.

Maybe comparing apples and oranges, as they say.

Some of us switch off everything each night to save power, and especially if away for a few days or weeks.
I have a G3 but, I don't shut it off and on continually. It just goes to sleep when the lid is closed. Same with the desktop machine, I put it to sleep when I am finished with it. Why would anyone turn off a computer other than to fix some type of issue?
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Re: The right decision

Post by CtrlAltDel »

antikythera wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:36 am
Good luck finding an HDD in 2020 with a longer warranty OR that is any more reliable than a 500GB or above SSD. The size of SSD purchased will last just as long as any 2.5" HDD currently on the market. The modern HDD from all manufacturers are a lot flimsier than old IDE and early SATA drives. Especially the 2.5" models. The spindle motors and head actuators are the weak links.

Seagate, WD Group brands and Toshiba are churning out absolute crud even at Enterprise Level. Yes they could get 4x the storage but also end up replacing the same drive up to 4x as often.
Antikythera, I hardly imagine the overriding concern of computer users, concerning HDD's, is longevity. I mean, sure, maybe you've been reading some things on some online computer magazine sites about how short the lifespan of a HDD is but, that is just reading way too much into it.

Out here in the wild, in the real world of people using HDD's and not just being stress "tested" by some geek getting paid to write an article, HDD's last forever and ever. More often than not, a memory stick will not even last as long as a HDD, certainly not a SSD.
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Re: The right decision

Post by antikythera »

Actually I replace the said failing HDDs as I service systems for both public and private organisations as well as consumers as part of the offerings of my Business but that's another matter entirely.

Maybe it's time to acknowledge the fact SSD are more reliable than you think now when you are the only one stating otherwise don't you think?
Last edited by antikythera on Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The right decision

Post by CtrlAltDel »

Moem wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:29 am
CtrlAltDel wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:01 am
HDD's just never seem to have anything go wrong with them.
I hope you play in the lottery. Because you apparently are a very lucky person.
Have you ever had a HDD actually fail, Moem, without dropping a laptop or something? That doesn't really count if you drop it. If I take a SSD and slam a hammer into it, it would probably stop working also. But, that is not really indicative of the reliability of the product. That would just have been something that should not have been done and not really the fault of the SSD.
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Re: The right decision

Post by Moem »

CtrlAltDel wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:48 am
Have you ever had a HDD actually fail, Moem, without dropping a laptop or something?
Yes. More than once. In desktops, too (no dropping or even transportation involved).
If I take a SSD and slam a hammer into it, it would probably stop working also.
No one does that by accident. But people drop laptops by accident. And then an SSD will survive.
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Re: The right decision

Post by CtrlAltDel »

antikythera wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:48 am
Actually I replace the said failing HDDs as I service systems for both public and private organisations as well as consumers as part of the offerings of my Business but that's another matter entirely.

Maybe it's time to acknowledge the fact SSD are more reliable than you think now when you are the only one stating otherwise don't you think?

I respect that, Antikythera, you have real world experience with it and you would know. Do a lot of the constantly failing HDD's you run into have liquid in them or anything from spilled coffee and drinks? You probably deal with a lot of businesses and they are notorious for not taking care of equipment. All the users of the computers don't really care about them because they don't own them.

They've probably been kicked around, moved around, thrown around while moving from office to office over the years, etc... I would venture to say 99.99 percent of computers in a corporate setting or business office, etc... never even get the dust blown out of them during their entire functioning lives.
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Re: The right decision

Post by CtrlAltDel »

Moem wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:52 am
CtrlAltDel wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:48 am
Have you ever had a HDD actually fail, Moem, without dropping a laptop or something?
Yes. More than once. In desktops, too (no dropping or even transportation involved).
If I take a SSD and slam a hammer into it, it would probably stop working also.
No one does that by accident. But people drop laptops by accident. And then an SSD will survive.
Oh yeah, I know that, Moem. I was just drawing a parallel. You aren't supposed to drop something that isn't supposed to be dropped and you aren't supposed to slam a hammer into something that isn't supposed to have a hammer hitting it.

So, when you drop a laptop that has a HDD in it, all bets are off. It wasn't really the HDD's fault that it quit working, it was your fault because you made it quit working. And, you do seem to have had bad luck with HDD's even in desktop machines. That is unfortunate. Did you maybe purchase the computers second-hand?
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Re: The right decision

Post by antikythera »

CtrlAltDel wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:54 am
antikythera wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:48 am
Actually I replace the said failing HDDs as I service systems for both public and private organisations as well as consumers as part of the offerings of my Business but that's another matter entirely.

Maybe it's time to acknowledge the fact SSD are more reliable than you think now when you are the only one stating otherwise don't you think?

I respect that, Antikythera, you have real world experience with it and you would know. Do a lot of the constantly failing HDD's you run into have liquid in them or anything from spilled coffee and drinks? You probably deal with a lot of businesses and they are notorious for not taking care of equipment. All the users of the computers don't really care about them because they don't own them.

They've probably been kicked around, moved around, thrown around while moving from office to office over the years, etc... I would venture to say 99.99 percent of computers in a corporate setting or business office, etc... never even get the dust blown out of them during their entire functioning lives.
You get the odd laptop that's had obvious signs of a drop or a spillage since accidents do happen but no more frequently than consumers. Heat build up especially in laptop drive bays in the ever shrinking chassis designs used these days kills the drives just as much as knocks.

The worst desktop and laptop systems to deal with actually come from the homes of people who smoke as they get covered in tar internally too. That used to be true of businesses too but smoking in the work place has been banned for years now.

Joe Public don't always bother cleaning out their desktop systems either. Not many folk know they need to as it is not typically mentioned in the user manuals by the manufacturers even if they bother reading them. If they are in a location that is frequently walked past by humans and pets (living room near to a door for example), they end up looking like the contents of a vacuum cleaner has been dumped in them sometimes.

We have professional grade ontrack data recovery software to attempt recovery of lost files for people who need that but it's usually university students at risk of losing their dissertation which they have been working on for months or consumers with years of family photos stored on the HDD and nowhere else who need us to use it.

Server racks are the easiest to work with on site. If a drive fails in one of them, they can typically be hot swapped in a matter of minutes without any data loss because of the RAID arrays leveraged. The rate of failure in those can be quite high though, even in properly cooled server racks and rooms because the drives are quite densely packed together so there is still heat build up between them. Businesses and Data Centres who try and cut corners by using WD Green or Seagate Barracuda Green drives in server blades fast learn the hard way not to. Seagate Exos X series (filled with Helium and sealed) are the better option if sticking with HDD technology.

The aim is to try and keep them at around 40 Celsius internally because even the best HDD drives will only operate properly up to 60 Celsius internally.

If the server room air-con fails, they fast become like Saunas.

nvme are actually being used more in brand new server racks too now primarily because they just as reliable and consume far less electricity on two fronts (running and cooling). The upfront costs of the more expensive storage are soon recuperated through cheaper running and maintenance bills.
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Re: The right decision

Post by Moem »

CtrlAltDel wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:06 am
I was just drawing a parallel. You aren't supposed to drop something that isn't supposed to be dropped and you aren't supposed to slam a hammer into something that isn't supposed to have a hammer hitting it.
And yet one is way more likely to happen than the other. So maybe this parallel isn't all that useful.
CtrlAltDel wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:06 am
And, you do seem to have had bad luck with HDD's even in desktop machines. That is unfortunate. Did you maybe purchase the computers second-hand?
Some of the HDDs were second hand. Some were not. Some of the second hand ones lasted longer than some of the new ones.

My partner is a sysadmin. He oversees a lot of professional hardware. He says that, like everything else, HDDs wear out with use. I'm not sure why that simple fact seems to be so hard to accept.

My point is, HDDs are great. SSDs are great too. Each of them has pros and cons, and which one is the best for a certain use depends on several factors. Kelevra is happy with their new SSD, so it seems like they made the best decision here, and I hope they'll enjoy it for many years.
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Re: The right decision

Post by CtrlAltDel »

Moem wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:25 am
CtrlAltDel wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:06 am
I was just drawing a parallel. You aren't supposed to drop something that isn't supposed to be dropped and you aren't supposed to slam a hammer into something that isn't supposed to have a hammer hitting it.
And yet one is way more likely to happen than the other. So maybe this parallel isn't all that useful.
CtrlAltDel wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:06 am
And, you do seem to have had bad luck with HDD's even in desktop machines. That is unfortunate. Did you maybe purchase the computers second-hand?
Some of the HDDs were second hand. Some were not. Some of the second hand ones lasted longer than some of the new ones.

My partner is a sysadmin. He oversees a lot of professional hardware. He says that, like everything else, HDDs wear out with use. I'm not sure why that simple fact seems to be so hard to accept.

My point is, HDDs are great. SSDs are great too. Each of them has pros and cons, and which one is the best for a certain use depends on several factors. Kelevra is happy with their new SSD, so it seems like they made the best decision here, and I hope they'll enjoy it for many years.
It's all in good fun, Moem. I've learned a lot from this thread with you and Antikythera commenting. I guess I get a little irritated when I see people singing the praises of SDD's with an almost religious zeal reminiscent of Microsoft vs. Linux flame fests of yesteryear. It has nothing to do with Kelevra.

It's like they hate HDD's and anyone still using them is hopelessly lost in a fog of history that is long gone and you are a virtual fossil for not immediately upgrading to the latest technology even if you don't need it. Maybe it is because I have a low-end decent processor and usable amount of memory installed that makes me feel like even with a SSD things won't be demonstrably better for me, personally.

And then you see a post after post abut gotta get a SSD, gotta get a SSD and I'm like, for what? Anyway, just to clear things up, considering my anti-SSD stance, I am a bit of a hypocrite. I have a G3 with a FireCuda processor in it. You know, it's kind of a little bit SSD and a whole lot of HDD mixed together.
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Re: The right decision

Post by CtrlAltDel »

antikythera wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:23 am
You get the odd laptop that's had obvious signs of a drop or a spillage since accidents do happen but no more frequently than consumers. Heat build up especially in laptop drive bays in the ever shrinking chassis designs used these days kills the drives just as much as knocks.

The worst desktop and laptop systems to deal with actually come from the homes of people who smoke as they get covered in tar internally too. That used to be true of businesses too but smoking in the work place has been banned for years now.

Joe Public don't always bother cleaning out their desktop systems either. Not many folk know they need to as it is not typically mentioned in the user manuals by the manufacturers even if they bother reading them. If they are in a location that is frequently walked past by humans and pets (living room near to a door for example), they end up looking like the contents of a vacuum cleaner has been dumped in them sometimes.

We have professional grade ontrack data recovery software to attempt recovery of lost files for people who need that but it's usually university students at risk of losing their dissertation which they have been working on for months or consumers with years of family photos stored on the HDD and nowhere else who need us to use it.

Server racks are the easiest to work with on site. If a drive fails in one of them, they can typically be hot swapped in a matter of minutes without any data loss because of the RAID arrays leveraged. The rate of failure in those can be quite high though, even in properly cooled server racks and rooms because the drives are quite densely packed together so there is still heat build up between them. Businesses and Data Centres who try and cut corners by using WD Green or Seagate Barracuda Green drives in server blades fast learn the hard way not to. Seagate Exos X series (filled with Helium and sealed) are the better option if sticking with HDD technology.

The aim is to try and keep them at around 40 Celsius internally because even the best HDD drives will only operate properly up to 60 Celsius internally.

If the server room air-con fails, they fast become like Saunas.

nvme are actually being used more in brand new server racks too now primarily because they just as reliable and consume far less electricity on two fronts (running and cooling). The upfront costs of the more expensive storage are soon recuperated through cheaper running and maintenance bills.
Thanks for sharing all of that, Antikythera. You have a lot of practical and tangible experience with the subject at hand and I'll cede to your knowledge. You just never know how much someone knows about any given subject until you do. Thanks again for all the details; it was an interesting read.
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Re: The right decision

Post by cliffcoggin »

CtrlAltDel wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:06 am

So, when you drop a laptop that has a HDD in it, all bets are off. It wasn't really the HDD's fault that it quit working, it was your fault because you made it quit working.
Fault or blame has nothing to do with it. Damage can and does happen, so it is sensible to recognise the fact and try to alleviate it by building more robust components.
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