Question about American display of pricing

[WriteF]

I am currently trying to chart the historical prices of a number of graphic cards.
This means looking at images I find in old magazines or sites, sometimes with use of the Wayback Machine.
Unfortunately I have to do this in a roundabout way because stock and pricing usually automatically adjusts on websites which makes it a lot more confusing.

The problem is that I know that in the US prices tend to be displayed without VAT included, and that this is added at the register when you pay.
Does this also apply on all the webshops as well or can some display with VAT included based on your location (IP-adress, cookies,...) or will it always be displayed without VAT?

I am currently assuming that any sites like this always display USD without VAT
https://www.gamersnexus.net/guides/3151 ... all-prices

I want to make absolutely sure I can tell what the price Without VAT at any given time is, so I can compare prices better with Belgian and Dutch webshops.

I am at least sure that MSRP anouncements of new products are without VAT so that is at least easy to compare then as well.

[Moonstone Man]

Does this also apply on all the webshops as well or can some display with VAT included based on your location (IP-adress, cookies,...) or will it always be displayed without VAT?

You face a number of problems in your endeavour because the rules change dramatically from one jurisdiction to the next. Your question is a legal one that depends on all three of tax laws, consumer laws, and binding trade agreements of the state, territory or nation in question, usually where the website's main business is physically located, though not always.

In some jurisdictions it is acceptable to tack on taxes and fees at the checkout without advertising those taxes or fees. In other jurisdictions this is highly illegal, and in one jurisdiction, taxes and fees must be listed separately but in others they must be included in the final price. In some jurisdictions, tax emptions automatically apply for foreign purchases so no sales tax or similar is levied. In other jurisdictions where taxes are levied on purchases, the purchaser must first declare their foreign status to claim an exemption, and in others, the purchaser must submit a formal claim for a refund. In these latter cases, a trade agreement is often in place that controls how taxes are levied on people's purchases from a given state, territory or nation. In those jurisdictions where tax emptions automatically apply for foreign purchases, not all vendors apply the exemption and they pocket the tax for themselves. None of this even begins to touch what certain websites might do contrary to their governing laws or agreements.

You would probably benefit from listing the price exactly as you find it, and labelling it as 'market price', 'displayed price' or 'selling price'. The alternative is going to take you far more time to work out than the years you have left in your life.

[Portreve]

Hey WriteF:

I am currently trying to chart the historical prices of a number of graphic cards.

What Kadaitcha Man says sounds like's it's very probably accurate, though it also represents specific knowledge (and/or experience) I don't have, since while I have been outside of the United States, I've never tried to order anything from the U.S. while overseas.

That all said, here's what I'd suggest you do, since what you're interested in is seeing the base price being charged here: I'd get a VPN account — whether you go with a free or fee-based option is up to you — so you can "pretend" to be in the U.S. Once you've done that and it sees you as being domestic, you will ALWAYS see the price without tax, since that's the norm we have here. If the AMD Portreve Special X33-201 sells for $299.99 and (for argument's sake) has a tax of $21 (7%), you will ONLY see it broken out separately at such point as you add it to the shopping cart and then proceed to checkout. Other than that, you'll just see the pre-tax $299.99.

You face a number of problems in your endeavour because the rules change dramatically from one jurisdiction to the next. [...]

Whoa. That's a heck of an explainer, dude.

---

I have friends in Germany who are... let's just call it "perplexed" and leave it at that... that it's perfectly legal in the U.S. not to tell the customer what the tax amount will be prior to purchase. While I don't know the reason for certain, I highly suspect it's related to why nothing is ever $30, but $29.99 (or $29.95, etc.): it's a psychological trick to make something appear less expensive than it really is. I'm also very certain there's been lobbying over the years to key elected officials which established that and kept it legal. YouTuber Diane Jennings (of Ireland) expressed concern about this when she visited the U.S. and had to go shopping for things. (This is not the only thing which perplexes my German friends about America, but we'll leave that go for the time being. )

[Moonstone Man]

You face a number of problems in your endeavour because the rules change dramatically from one jurisdiction to the next. [...]

Whoa. That's a heck of an explainer, dude.

I thought it nicely encapsulated the scale of the problem, though it's actually worse than I described because things change in time, not only across jurisdictions. Just keeping up with the change in how taxes are applied to prices in different jurisdictions would be enough to drive anyone mad... assuming they weren't already mad for trying to keep up.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

One monkey wrench in the comparisons is the SSA doesn't have a Value Added Tax (VAT). Instead, it is a fixed rate sales tax (that varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction) that is applied at the time of purchase. Sales taxes rates here in the SSA are usually much less than a VAT since it is applied only once instead of at every step of the manufacturing process from raw materials to the final packaging.

[WriteF]

Ok so I am going to work with more simplified methods for now, and get into this later since it will take more time for it then I currently have.

Quick question for American bros then: "How much of a difference is there usually between the MSRP announcement, and what it actually costs (mention if VAT included)? Just a rough estimate of the top of the head is fine.

The bigger problem that remains is that MSRP seems pretty pointless to begin with because some models will cost a hundred more, some cost fifty more. But does anything get released at MSRP? It seems useful as a constant among a pile of variables, but only if I can find an average that is added for, lets say, gaming card with normal amount of memory.

Once you've done that and it sees you as being domestic, you will ALWAYS see the price without tax, since that's the norm we have here. If the AMD Portreve Special X33-201 sells for $299.99 and (for argument's sake) has a tax of $21 (7%), you will ONLY see it broken out separately at such point as you add it to the shopping cart and then proceed to checkout. Other than that, you'll just see the pre-tax $299.99.

Thanks. I wanted to be sure about that.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

...Quick question for American bros then: "How much of a difference is there usually between the MSRP announcement, and what it actually costs (mention if VAT included)? Just a rough estimate of the top of the head is fine...

What? American "sisters" can't answer?

Back to the ranch...er...topic... MSRP is just the retail price manufacturers suggest. It is often inflated beyond reason so retailers can't accuse manufacturers of competing with them. Usually, retailers will sell below MSRP but the amount will vary wildly with region, depending on supply and demand, and the amount of overhead per sale. However, if an item is in short supply, retailers will often inflate prices (or scalpers will buy up existing stock at retail prices, including tax, and resell them had obscenely inflated prices, with or without sales tax added).

Again, there is no VAT here. Instead, we have sales taxes that gets tacked on at the time an item is sold at the retail level. The amount of sales tax will vary from State to State, county to county, and city to city. It often will vary by what the item is. Sales tax is not the same as VAT.

Due to all the variables that determine retail prices, its impossible to even make a usable rough estimate.

[WriteF]

What? American "sisters" can't answer?

Was kind of goofing around and meant it in an inclusive way offcourse. I speak many languages and many are weird when it comes to groups of people and such. Or when describing a non-specific singular person. I like to think I have a way with languages and it still trips me up at times.

Back to the ranch...er...topic...

I see what you did there

It is often inflated beyond reason so retailers can't accuse manufacturers of competing with them. Usually, retailers will sell below MSRP but the amount will vary wildly with region, depending on supply and demand, and the amount of overhead per sale.

Again, there is no VAT here. Instead, we have sales taxes that gets tacked on at the time an item is sold at the retail level. The amount of sales tax will vary from State to State, county to county, and city to city. It often will vary by what the item is. Sales tax is not the same as VAT.

So they actually roughball it. I suppose people aren't really helped with just a starting/minimum price but it helps a lot to know this. Thanks! So I am really confusing two separate kinds of taxations here.. I figured that it would come down to the same thing "at the register", but I guess it's not that simple.

[Portreve]

Hey again, WriteF:

So they actually roughball it.

I wrote and then deleted a prior post because I significantly re-thought what and how I wanted to add some more comments.

To expand a little bit on both Lady Fitzgerald's and Kadaitcha Man's posts up-thread, the way it works in the U.S. for taxes is that there is no Federal sales tax. Every state determines what, if any, amount of sales tax should be applied to any particular sale. Then, within each state, every county can then add to that a "millage rate", which is their own levied tax. Cities can also do the same thing. When a company selling on a national basis (z.B. Best Buy or NewEgg) wants to list a product for sale, they don't bother trying to include a finished (i.e. inclusive of tax) price because that would be pretty awkward to do. Therefore, since you don't care about taxes being charged but instead the base price of an item, you don't need to pursue the process (of purchasing) that far. You'll only see the information you're actually looking for by, well, basically doing what I suggested above.

However, if you are going for accuracy here, there's one more thing you should consider which has not yet been brought up in this thread: inflation. Now, between any two or three immediately adjacent years, the inflation rate will be negligible. However, if you go back far enough (say, 5-10 years) it starts to become noticeable. You should also be aware that pricing from year to year is kind of deceptive. Now, by that I'm simply trying to say pricing on its own isn't the whole story.

There's a fairly simple way of dealing with this. If you are mapping this data for a lot of graphics cards (or, honestly, any other kind of component) it will be a bit tedious, but it's not complicated.

The United States' national Bureau of Labor Statistics is an amazing resource for a lot of different kinds of information, and perhaps you might just want to surf around there a bit to satisfy whatever curiosity you might have. However, their Inflation Calculator will help you to better understand the pricing you're going to be looking at, especially if it incorporates historical elements to it.

Let me give you a brief example. Just suppose ATI had put out the Portreve Extreme 3D card in 2001, and at the time the price in question was $149.99. Then, in 2011 they put out the Portreve Ultra XL 3D card, which likewise sold for $149.99. And now, they just released the Portreve Special Edition Electron 3D and it's $169.99. What were their actual comparative values?

Using the BLS's Inflation Calculator, you would discover the following:

Code: Select all

Model:                              Original $:    2021 $:
ATI Portreve Extreme 3D (2001)      $149.99        $223.20
ATI Portreve Ultra XL 3D (2011)     $149.99        $176.01
ATI Portreve SE Electron 3D (2021)    ---          $169.99

As you can see, the cards have actually decreased in price with each generation, even though it appears they have either stayed the same or increased.

[GS3]

I have friends in Germany who are... let's just call it "perplexed" and leave it at that... that it's perfectly legal in the U.S. not to tell the customer what the tax amount will be prior to purchase.

I am perplexed that anyone could be so easily perplexed and I do not understand how anybody expects the tax, which is a variable quantity which depends on several factors, to be included in the price.

Say the base price is $100. Sales tax will depend on the jurisdiction, not only state but maybe also city. Or the purchaser my be tax exempt. Is a seller supposed to make a price list for every different situation?

Not only that but tax is not part of the sales price. The tax liability is with the state and the seller only collects it on behalf of the state. The buyer is not paying tax to the seller but to the state.

If the buyer is a business they will need to account separately for the tax in their business accounts.

It is similar to a worker who is paid a salary and pays income and other taxes as a liability created by the earning of the salary. The employer withholds but it is the employee who pays the taxes to the state and the amount of taxes accrued depend on the personal circumstances of the employee. It would be silly to ask the employer to "just tell me how much I will make net" because there are multiple circumstances which affect the tax liability.

It is the same with sales taxes. Not to mention that it is good to be reminded of how much the people pay in taxes.

When you bought that $100 item the price you paid the seller was $100 and if the state extorted another $12 you cannot say you paid the seller $112 because you didn't; you paid the seller $100 and you paid the state $12. Let's keep things straight.


And when comparing sales tax to VAT the latter is vastly superior in every respect ... which is why America refuses to implement it. As far as I know pretty much every other developed country in the world has implemented VAT.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

...And when comparing sales tax to VAT the latter is vastly superior in every respect ... which is why America refuses to implement it. As far as I know pretty much every other developed country in the world has implemented VAT.

Superior my Aunt Fanny May! How, pray tell, is a complex tax that nickle and dimes each step of the production process, resulting in a tax that far higher than sales taxes here in the SSA?

[Portreve]

I am perplexed that anyone could be so easily perplexed and I do not understand how anybody expects the tax, which is a variable quantity which depends on several factors, to be included in the price.

Well, I'm perplexed that you're perplexed that they're perplexed that...

I'm in absolutely no position to offer comment on VAT, or VAT vs. sales tax. However, with all due respect to you and Lady Fitzgerald, the "my friends in Germany are perplexed" comment has absolutely nothing to do with anything specific to either taxation system. They're simply used to going into a store, and whatever the listed price is for an item is exactly what they'll pay at the register. In fact, anytime one watches a cultural comparison video and that particular line of discussion comes up, it has nothing to do with VAT vs. sales tax.

I also don't really follow your logic on why it would be complex to print shelf labels that have the listed price include sales tax. There is no variability to the tax there; rather, there exist precisely three possibilities:

1. The item non-taxable;
2. The item is taxable and the transaction is not exempt; or
3. The item is taxable and the transaction is exempt

It would be less awkward to charge the exempt customer less than the printed price than the present system where everyone has to concern themselves with "how much extra" they need to have in order to walk out the door with their purchase(s) legally in-hand.

[GS3]

Superior my Aunt Fanny May! How, pray tell, is a complex tax that nickle and dimes each step of the production process, resulting in a tax that far higher than sales taxes here in the SSA?

You know nothing about VAT and yet you have and state a strong opinion.

VAT is only some decades old and yet has been adopted by every economy in the world except America. Think about it. Then consider whether just maybe you are the one who is missing something.

Maybe you could start with Wikipedia.

[GS3]

I'm in absolutely no position to offer comment on VAT, or VAT vs. sales tax.

A wise thing to say when that is in fact the situation.

However, with all due respect to you and Lady Fitzgerald, the "my friends in Germany are perplexed" comment has absolutely nothing to do with anything specific to either taxation system. They're simply used to going into a store, and whatever the listed price is for an item is exactly what they'll pay at the register. In fact, anytime one watches a cultural comparison video and that particular line of discussion comes up, it has nothing to do with VAT vs. sales tax.

I realise it has nothing to do with the kind of tax and only to do with how prices are quoted.

It seems nice to just say "the quoted price is what you pay", which, incidentally, would be a nice thing to do in American restaurants, rather than the stupid tipping culture which makes no one happy, but, I digress...

I suppose at first blush it looks better have the tax included in the price but this is misleading. If I buy in Germany a kilo of lemons then I suppose you might think it is better but this is an extremely limited view of the subject.

If the product is for business use then the tax is paid with the purchase but deducted later so the true cost does not include tax. While a store might have a label on the shelf which includes the tax I would be very surprised, I might even say I would be perplexed, if the receipt or invoice did not show the tax separately. Remember that the merchant only collects the tax for the state and *has* to account for it separately.

If the buyer is located in another country they will not pay German tax rate but their own country's tax rate. I do not know enough German to browse a German site so I went to amazon.co.uk and it seems extremely complicated. I may be misunderstanding the whole thing but it seems to me the price listed there includes UK tax. Now suppose a buyer in Germany wants to order a product from a UK seller. The customer would need to deduct UK tax from the listed price and add German tax. Because this looks to me like much, much worse than just listing tax separately in the first place.

Imagine in America the same situation. You buy something from another state and rather than just add your own state's tax you need to first deduct the tax of the seller's state. I am truly perplexed than anyone can think this is a better system. I do not think you would propose this.\

Your German friends may be perplexed and feel including the tax in the price is better but this only shows a very limited perspective and the thinking that what you are used to is better which is the greatest obstacle to change and therefore to progress.

I remember many, decades ago a conversation I had with someone from some east block communist country who was absolutely perplexed (hey, I'm beginning to like the word) that different gas stations and locations had different prices. She was used to having a single price for gasoline everywhere and she found this much simpler and fairer. She found it unfair and complicated that each gas station could charge different prices. When you are used to something you think it makes sense.

[GS3]

Wikipedia map showing countries that use VAT and those who don't.

America is one of the few holdouts in the company of North Korea, Cuba, Lybia, Birmania and a bunch of others with no economy to speak of.

As of 2018, 166 of the 193 countries with full UN membership employ a VAT, including all OECD members except the United States

Like the metric system, when the entire world thinks something is good maybe, just maybe, they have a point.

Like the metric system, VAT facilitates international trade because when countries make trade treaties they are mainly about taxes and tariffs and they need a homogeneous way of assessing them. This is one of the key advantages of VAT.

In summary my position is

(1) VAT is clearly a superior system (America is getting this wrong)

(2) listed prices should not include tax, VAT or other, (America is getting this right)

(3) Restaurant prices should include service and not rely on tipping (America gets this wrong)

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Superior my Aunt Fanny May! How, pray tell, is a complex tax that nickle and dimes each step of the production process, resulting in a tax that far higher than sales taxes here in the SSA?

You know nothing about VAT and yet you have and state a strong opinion.

VAT is only some decades old and yet has been adopted by every economy in the world except America. Think about it. Then consider whether just maybe you are the one who is missing something.

Maybe you could start with Wikipedia.

No, I'm asking YOU why You think VAT is superior. So far, all you have said is opinion, not fact. Just because other countries have adopted VAT doesn't mean it is better for consumers.

BTW, I know what VAT is and understand how it works. I'm also tired of you unjustly denigrating my home when you apparently know nothing about it.

[mikeflan]

1) VAT is clearly a superior system

Show me a map of world-wide OS use and tell me that clearly Windows is the superior OS

[dorsetUK]

No taxation system is perfect.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/v/valueaddedtax.asp

[majpooper]

In summary my position is
(3) Restaurant prices should include service and not rely on tipping (America gets this wrong)

I won't get into the VAT vs Sales Tax debate - there are pros and cons to each.

However my position is;
(3) Restaurant prices should [not]include service and rely on tipping (America gets this right)
I like tipping for a couple of reasons;
1.) it incentivises the servers to be attentive, friendly and prompt - why should I pay the same for lousy service as for excellent service?
2.) it allows me to be generous - I typically tip at 20% but in some instances if the food is inexpensive and the service was excellent I will tip at a much higher rate.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

...However my position is;
(3) Restaurant prices should [not]include service and rely on tipping (America gets this right)
I like tipping for a couple of reasons;
1.) it incentivises the servers to be attentive, friendly and prompt - why should I pay the same for lousy service as for excellent service?
2.) it allows me to be generous - I typically tip at 20% but in some instances if the food is inexpensive and the service was excellent I will tip at a much higher rate.

Thank you very much! You get it!