The Eternal Battle Noobs vs Power Users...

[MurphCID]

I watched a DT video where he addressed some of the concerns but then turned around and cast scorn and derision upon Noobs for not accepting the Power User is always right. It has always seemed to me to be a battle from the earliest days of Linux. VIM/EMACS vs Nano or similar easy to use basic text editor,, Window managers vs Desktop Environments. The Power User is the master of Linux, easily writing scripts, configuring hardware, having paid his/her dues in the Linux trenches and having the scars to prove it. The Power User is intolerant of casual users, since he "Knows" he/she is the Elite of the Linux world, and no one else need apply unless they are as dedicated as they are.

The Noob is either a embryonic Power User who is itching to learn, overcome, and terrorize the machine, or someone who just wants a computer to let them surf the net, send emails, write documents, maybe use a spreadsheet, and not much else. The Noob is the bane of the Power User, they ask (to the Power User) questions that the Power User had to find out on their own, they want it (in the opinion of the Power User) to be "dumbed down" so that anyone can use Linux, which (to some Power Users) is a "Bad Thing", since THEY had to pay their dues to learn the system. They resent the Noobs coming in and using "kiddy distros" which are "Too Easy, or Dumbed Down". They know the TRUE PATH of Linux because they have taken the time to vanquish the darkness. They have the scars and PTSD to prove it.

The Noob resents the Power User because the Noob sees the Power User as intolerant, and not caring about their questions, which to them, are perfectly good because they want to learn to use their new, shiny, Linux desktop. They get mad when told that they must only use the Terminal to do things, use, to them, "hard" distros. They just want to know how to do things, and so ask questions which annoy the feces out of the Power User since, to them, those questions have been asked forever. The Noob might be someone who has no desire to be a Power User, the Noob might be someone who came from Windows or Mac and just wants a system that works sanely, and to do basic tasks and nothing else.

Both sides end up loathing each other since neither one takes the time to think about the perspective of the other group. The Power Users are almost always outnumbered by the Noobs, but they end up being the most vocal and strident faction in Linux-land. As a result Noobs who might have given Linux a long term look, and perhaps eventually ascend to Power User status are run away from the Linux community. But the Noobs can also run off the Power Users who have so much valuable knowledge from Linux boards since they get tired to beating the same deceased equine over and over.

The battle will never be over, nor really should it be. I fall into the Noob-just want to use it to get my tasks done, and don't really care about getting under the hood category. Don't want to be a Power User, don't care to be a Power User. Others may agree, others may decide to take the rocky and dangerous path of the Linux Power User. I say good for them! We need those folks, and I hope they get their Nirvana. For the Noobs, I say just find a Linux Distro you like and learn as much as you want to or need to about it.

Comments?

[Windows2LinuxNoob]

I believe I’m elite user but it’s not a contest. I love what I can do with Linux that’s the important thing to me. So I don’t want to berate noobs, normies, etc because they don’t use Linux. To each and to their own I know why my OS choice is superior. This is from many years of MS SW use and seeing the light when I first tired Linux as a noob. I would rather enrich than insult someone willing to listen.

[MurphCID]

And I agree, our tent is large enough for everyone. I, for one, celebrate the Power Users and the Noobs. It makes me think.

[Portreve]

I don't think this conversation can go very far in a useful way without actually spelling out the terms used, with an eye to two things:

1. Objective accuracy or something as close as possible to this; and
2. Concurrent agreement by all parties to these definitions

Otherwise, it's a waste. All we'll be doing is either a lot of magic thinking or just talking/arguing past one another.

[MurphCID]

I don't think this conversation can go very far in a useful way without actually spelling out the terms used, with an eye to two things:

1. Objective accuracy or something as close as possible to this; and
2. Concurrent agreement by all parties to these definitions

Otherwise, it's a waste. All we'll be doing is either a lot of magic thinking or just talking/arguing past one another.

Please set out some definitions, I would appreciate it.

[Moem]

Are we supposed to know who 'DT' is?

[MurphCID]

Sorry DistroTube on Youtube.

[Portreve]

Please set out some definitions, I would appreciate it.

Alright. First off, let's recognize the fact that English (and possibly many other languages) have multiple unrelated meanings for a number of words. My usual go-to examples in English are:

love — “I love you” and “I love pizza” refer to two completely different concepts only tangentially related under a hyper-extended concept of personal preference.

free — Free as in cost and Free as in liberty. For example, “Hey, Joe, how much was your dinner?” “Oh, today is my birthday, so they gave it to me for free.” vs. “As of this moment, Babylon 5 is seceding from the Earth Alliance. We will remain an independent state until President Clark is removed from office. At the end of this current crisis, anyone who wishes to leave for Earth is free to do so.” [from Babylon 5 03x10 "Severed Dreams".]

Elite and Elitist: I have an issue with the unqualified interchangeability of these two terms. An elite is someone who stands out as a prime example of something, or is the (or one of the) best of the best at something. Elitist on the other hand is a form of adjective-ing the former, and prima facie is intended as a derogatory term (whether it's deserved or not is irrelevant here) used to slight someone. An elitist is some form of snob, someone who thinks they are better than someone else.

I would argue there is nothing bad per se about being an elite. Neil Armstrong, for instance, had progressed as a child from simply drawing or building little cheap models of airplane to building a full-fledged wind tunnel in the basement of his Wapakoneta, Ohio home, to eventually taking all manner of math and science classes and eventually engineering classes in college, and was one of the handful of pilots in the very early 1960s to have ever flown the X-15. By the definition of the time within the pilot community, he was an elite fighter and test pilot. Chuck Yeager, on the other hand, was well-known for having a serious ego, and looked down on anyone who he didn't feel was his equal. He was just as widely regarded as an elitist a*****e.

Now, I bring all of this up to try and put what I'm about to say in some form of context.

First, let's start with the absolute bottom rung of the ladder you've spelled out above: n00b. This is not intended as a descriptor, but as an insult. n00bz are how the snobs at the top, as well as others who really aren't at the top but are insecure about their perceived place in the pecking order, think of and refer to those who are at the bottom, and just starting out (at least in that given field). So, if you're trying to go for a descriptive as opposed to prescriptive discussion, then the most proper term to use, and one which is not by definition derisive or contemptuous, is "new user" or "newcomer", or something similar.

Then, let's have a go at the term "power user". What does that actually mean? To me, if anything, it's very similar to the following hypothetical declaration by a child to, let's say, their parents: “When I grow up, I want to be successful.” Successful? What do you mean "successful"? It's actually an unqualified term, and therefore really means nothing at all. If one wishes to attain success (again, here's another term which has different potential meanings, but alas I digress...) one needs to have some specific, concrete goal in mind. Do you want to be a successful chef? A successful ditch digger? A successful lawyer? A successful store manager? A successful fighter pilot? Except for determination, none of these things are remotely alike, nor are what you have to do to become one of them. You'll never, for instance, become a successful fighter pilot no matter how many law books you read and memorize.

There is no "better term" to use than "power user". Even if the following seem similar, they are not. Again, it's best to be specific.

Experienced User — Now here is a term with which one can get somewhere. Experienced at what? Ah yes, experienced at using spreadsheet programs. Or, experienced at doing computer troubleshooting. Or, experienced at... You get my point.

Expert — This immediately leads to the same question: expert at what? Well, just as an "experienced user" can be experienced at more than one thing, someone can obviously be an expert at more than one thing. But nevertheless, again it's possible to qualify and define this claim. “I'm an expert on the subject of filesystem I/O.” Oh, ok. One then can assume this person probably writes device drivers, has kernel-level knowledgeability, etc.

Now, to return to the top of this post, or for that matter what I believe you were commiserating about in yours, there are plenty of people out there in all walks of life who, for whatever reason or reasons, are very badly behaved towards others. There may be room to study those types of people simply to add to the sum total of knowledge for our species, but in the reality of the moment, down in the trenches as it were, they're no more worth studying and trying to understand than a group of cancer cells in your body. They are dangerous and damaging, and should be removed, instead of bothering about what they think of others.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Hmmm, I always thought Expert was defined as:

Ex = a has been
Spurt - a drip under pressure

[MurphCID]

Please set out some definitions, I would appreciate it.

Alright. First off, let's recognize the fact that English (and possibly many other languages) have multiple unrelated meanings for a number of words. My usual go-to examples in English are:

Actually by the term "Noob" I meant Newbi/New User/Basic User as shorthand that I see often. For Power User, the person who is extremely knowledgeable about Linux, and can do things that most people using Linux cannot (yet). People who understand dependencies, and can write BASH scripts to automate their tasks. I am never attempting to denigrate anyone, I was merely using a shorthand for the basic and experienced Linux users. Nor was I getting into the "elitist" (in the pejorative sense) who are Linux snobs. For Power User, the sort of Linux user you can hand an Arch, Mint, Slackware, Red Hat distro and within a very short time they have it up and running productively. I hope this clarifies.

[majpooper]

Please set out some definitions, I would appreciate it.

Alright. First off, let's recognize the fact that English (and possibly many other languages) have multiple unrelated meanings for a number of words.

Excellent post - which in fact applies to all dialog BTW.

[Portreve]

I am never attempting to denigrate anyone, I was merely using a shorthand for the basic and experienced Linux users.

Hey, MurphCID, pay no attention to Khan. He's still pissed Kirk never sent him a Christmas card. It was long distance, and the resettlement on Ceti Alpha V was classified and covert, so the UFPS wouldn't have delivered there, anyway.

[MurphCID]

I am never attempting to denigrate anyone, I was merely using a shorthand for the basic and experienced Linux users.

Hey, MurphCID, pay no attention to Khan. He's still pissed Kirk never sent him a Christmas card. It was long distance, and the resettlement on Ceti Alpha V was classified and covert, so the UFPS wouldn't have delivered there, anyway.

LOL!

[MurphCID]

The other thing I do not understand is the constant harping on distributions as being either "beginner" or "power user" type dstribution. My question to those who are willing to answer is this: What can you NOT do in Mint that you can do in Arch or Slackware, or [insert other distribution here]? It seems to me that Linux Mint, or Pop OS, or Ubuntu or even perhaps Manjaro you can do 99.9999% of what you need to do in Linux. Or does it come back to the eternal battle of Apt vs rpm, vs pacman?

I just watched a Distrotube video on YouTube where he was claiming Mint was a better "beginner" distribution than Ubuntu, and while he was correct in my opinion, his attitude was that "real" Linux users use Arch or some other "harder" distro. Again, what can you do on Arch that cannot under any circumstances be done on Mint?

Portreve please jump in here....

[ivar]

Actually by the term "Noob" I meant Newbi/New User/Basic User as shorthand that I see often. For Power User, the person who is extremely knowledgeable about Linux

Aspiring PowerNoob here, lol!
1 year with Mint now, learned more than enough to get myself into trouble (but still lacking in many areas)

[MurphCID]

Actually by the term "Noob" I meant Newbi/New User/Basic User as shorthand that I see often. For Power User, the person who is extremely knowledgeable about Linux

Aspiring PowerNoob here, lol!
1 year with Mint now, learned more than enough to get myself into trouble (but still lacking in many areas)

I suspect that I am and always will be the "Eternal Noob" [cue stirring music]....

[ivar]

. or maybe just a user..?

Came over this suggestion for ranking cmputer knowledge in another thread on here:
https://pointieststick.com/2021/11/29/w ... rget-user/

[fstjohn]

Are we supposed to know who 'DT' is?

I used to know, but I've forgotten. It's terrible getting old and forgetful. On the other hand, thank God I'm not the President.

[MurphCID]

. or maybe just a user..?

Came over this suggestion for ranking computer knowledge in another thread on here:
https://pointieststick.com/2021/11/29/w ... rget-user/

On that scale I am probably a 0.5 to a 1. I really have no interest in ascending the ranks of Computer WIzardry (I am too weak in math skills...) So I guess I rate as Basic Computer user.

For the Wizards and Power Users...Slackware is finally releasing their latest version. I am in awe of the Slackware Wizards. Arch users have no bragging rights compared to Slackware users. They are the Alpha Males of the Linux world IMHO.

[majpooper]

. or maybe just a user..?

Came over this suggestion for ranking computer knowledge in another thread on here:
https://pointieststick.com/2021/11/29/w ... rget-user/

I am 1.5 dots

A little more than this:
29% can use more advanced functionality in individual apps, such as searching for data that is not currently visible, or writing an email reply to multiple people and not just the sender. They have one dot in Computers.

Can do some of this but often need some some guidance
26% can perform multi-step tasks involving more than one app, collate information from external sources, overcome minor errors and obstacles that occur during the process, and do some monitoring of background tasks for activity. They have two dots in Computers.