Why piracy isnt theft

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DrHu
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Re: Why piracy isnt theft

Post by DrHu »

FedoraRefugee wrote:The problem is that without God you lose your foundation. Morals are now up for grabs. As Hinto says, you make it up as you go along.
I don't think this is true at all.

Whether or not an external force ?God keeps you straight or you develop your own compass, you still have one; and they may be more alike than you realize

The fact that fundamental principles (God's laws if you like), such as thou shall not kill or murder, although even God understood, it seems: a justified defense, and in that old old testament, God was a vengeful creature..

It is only later, after a comparison of both sides, that anyone can be sure where the compass really points.

We don't actually make up everything for ourselves, we all depend on the culture we derive from to narrow our position, we follow the crowd for some time, unless we decide they are incorrect or maybe just prejudiced: then we decide (but might never be absolutely sure how much is me and thee)
Last edited by DrHu on Sat May 29, 2010 7:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Why piracy isnt theft

Post by FedoraRefugee »

DrHu wrote:
The problem is that without God you lose your foundation. Morals are now up for grabs. As Hinto says, you make it up as you go along.
I don't think this is true at all...
<sigh> I know...

I stated my case, so I will not continue to circle. I do understand your position though. It would make for an interesting thread. :D
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Re: Why piracy isnt theft

Post by eiver »

FedoraRefugee wrote: :( AI has so many possibilities...
Oh yeah. I love all Terminator movies too. :D (joke)
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Re: Why piracy isnt theft

Post by randomizer »

We managed to go from piracy to axioms to God all in one night?
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Re: Why piracy isnt theft

Post by FedoraRefugee »

randomizer wrote:We managed to go from piracy to axioms to God all in one night?
And AI and the Terminator movies too!

Haste la Vista Ba-by...
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Re: Why piracy isnt theft

Post by Chasester »

randomizer wrote:
hinto wrote:The problem is, it's not free.
It is to the person downloading it and that is all that matters to them. If I want to get Photoshop I can either pay nothing or I can pay a few hundred to several thousand dollars. The former option is free. Nobody lost or gained any money from it, so it is not theft and it is not charitable or a sale either. The problem is that copyright was still infringed. Of course, that doesn't stop people getting things for free. Music, movies, software... you name it, it's available for free (gratis, of course, and not legally).

Living off free (legally gratis or libre) software is still living off someone else's work. Does that mean I'm stealing their time as well? Of course not. But in this case I'm not infringing copyright, which I would be if the software was not licensed freely.
What do you do for a living randomizer?
youth is certainly wasted on the young.
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Re: Why piracy isnt theft

Post by distrohopper »

Piracy or not.. If it wasn't meant to be (what some people call stolen), it wouldn't be so easy to reproduce and transmit digitally. Do i read Terms of Service? No. Do I feel I have rights to everything available over the internet, yes. I pay my internet bill. Do I care what anyone thinks? No.

Are my perceptions distorted?
Probably.

Do I care?
No.

Intellectual property or not, doesn't make a bit of difference to me. If I can download it (and want it), I will. Call me a pirate, call me whatever you want. If thats stealing.. so be it. I guess I'm going to hell (if we're not already there). We were given computers and all the abilities of them attached to it. If there's anything questionable about what we do with them (computers), then I think the industry and government probably should have thought about that way before letting the average person have access to computers.

Thats my view. You pay for internet.. you get everything that goes with it. It's not open for philosophical debate. It's a bunch of 1's and 0's. It's also up to the person/corporation distributing the software to ensure it can't be used by somebody who they think shouldn't be using it. Guaranteed, somebody smarter will come along and crack it. My problem? No.

Is that my (or any of yours) problem? No.

Until the world realizes that there is NO stopping of copyright infringement, we're stuck with this (what some people think is a) problem. We elect the governments that make the laws. If more than 50% of people download stuff that somebody else considers 'unlawful', then hasn't the majority of the people (who've elected the government) already spoken?
Last edited by distrohopper on Fri May 28, 2010 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why piracy isnt theft

Post by MALsPa »

I agree with distrohopper.
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Re: Why piracy isnt theft

Post by FedoraRefugee »

distrohopper wrote:Piracy or not.. If it wasn't meant to be (what some people call stolen), it wouldn't be so easy to reproduce and transmit digitally. Do i read Terms of Service? No. Do I feel I have rights to everything available over the internet, yes. I pay my internet bill. Do I care what anyone thinks? No.

Are my perceptions distorted?
Probably.

Do I care?
No.

Intellectual property or not, doesn't make a bit of difference to me. If I can download it (and want it), I will. Call me a pirate, call me whatever you want. If thats stealing.. so be it. I guess I'm going to hell (if we're not already there). We were given computers and all the abilities of them attached to it. If there's anything questionable about what we do with them (computers), then I think the industry and government probably should have thought about that way before letting the average person have access to computers.

Thats my view. You pay for internet.. you get everything that goes with it. It's not open for philosophical debate. It's a bunch of 1's and 0's. It's also up to the person/corporation distributing the software to ensure it can't be used by somebody who they think shouldn't be using it. Guaranteed, somebody smarter will come along and crack it. My problem? No.

Is that my (or any of yours) problem? No.

Until the world realizes that there is NO stopping of copyright infringement, we're stuck with this (what some people think is a) problem. We elect the governments that make the laws. If more than 50% of people download stuff that somebody else considers 'unlawful', then hasn't the majority of the people (who've elected the government) already spoken?
I do not agree but I like your attitude about it! You are consistent and I respect that. If I was not tied to all the moral baggage I would feel exactly the same way. In fact, i once did. :D

In fact, I want to say more! You do not make excuses or play with the meanings of words or philosophize endlessly about why you are justified. No, the HELL with all that! If it is stealing that is fine! Call it what you want, if they do not want you ti use it then they better find a way to prevent unauthorized use. Spot on! I do agree with that. Good post.
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Re: Why piracy isnt theft

Post by deleted »

distrohopper wrote:If it wasn't meant to be (what some people call stolen), it wouldn't be so easy to reproduce and transmit digitally.
If I leave my doors and windows unlocked at night, does that mean it's OK to steal from me?
..And I don't think anyone has taken a stab at answering the question(s) of when does a person (or company) make enough to steal from and when to they make too little that it makes it OK to steal?
-Hinto
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Re: Why piracy isnt theft

Post by deleted »

DrHu wrote: We don't actually make up everything for ourselves, we all depend on the culture we derive from to narrow our position, we follow the crowd for some time, unless we decide they are incorrect or maybe just prejudiced: the we decide (but might never be absolutely sure how much is me and thee)
I think this has been talked about in this thread before, but there have been tons of examples in history where the culture turned out to be wrong. Right and Wrong exist outside of culture.
I shapes it, not the other way around.
-Hinto
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Re: Why piracy isnt theft

Post by Chasester »

distrohopper wrote:Piracy or not.. If it wasn't meant to be (what some people call stolen), it wouldn't be so easy to reproduce and transmit digitally. Do i read Terms of Service? No. Do I feel I have rights to everything available over the internet, yes. I pay my internet bill. Do I care what anyone thinks? No.

Are my perceptions distorted?
Probably.

Do I care?
No.

Intellectual property or not, doesn't make a bit of difference to me. If I can download it (and want it), I will. Call me a pirate, call me whatever you want. If thats stealing.. so be it. I guess I'm going to hell (if we're not already there). We were given computers and all the abilities of them attached to it. If there's anything questionable about what we do with them (computers), then I think the industry and government probably should have thought about that way before letting the average person have access to computers.

Thats my view. You pay for internet.. you get everything that goes with it. It's not open for philosophical debate. It's a bunch of 1's and 0's. It's also up to the person/corporation distributing the software to ensure it can't be used by somebody who they think shouldn't be using it. Guaranteed, somebody smarter will come along and crack it. My problem? No.

Is that my (or any of yours) problem? No.

Until the world realizes that there is NO stopping of copyright infringement, we're stuck with this (what some people think is a) problem. We elect the governments that make the laws. If more than 50% of people download stuff that somebody else considers 'unlawful', then hasn't the majority of the people (who've elected the government) already spoken?
So if you discover a flaw in someone's ordering system. Say on newegg.com or CDW. And you discovered that you could (using the internet you paid for) manipulate an invoice from 999.00 and make it .99. Is that your or someone elses problem?

What if you happen to find yourself in the middle of a mob situation. You're standing on a road that your tax dollars pay for, and you have the capacity to loot a store since more than 50% of the people around you are doing it too - is that the majority speaking?
youth is certainly wasted on the young.
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mick55
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Re: Why piracy isnt theft

Post by mick55 »

"Now and then we had a hope that if we lived and were good,
God would permit us to be pirates" ~ Mark Twain



For FedoraRefugee ~ God and Pirates. :wink:
Things are more like they are now than they ever were before.

Dwight D. Eisenhower (1890 - 1969)
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Re: Why piracy isnt theft

Post by waldo »

FedoraRefugee wrote:The first paragraph alone says it all!
Let's start off with a brief discussion of the sources of income. That's important because some of the rhetoric one hears gives the impression that income is somehow distributed - there's a dealer of dollars. Thus, one might think that the reason some people have more income than others is that the dollar dealer is a racist, a sexist, or a multi-nationalist who deals out dollars unfairly. Or, alternatively, the reason that some people are richer than others is because they got to the pile of money first and took an unfair share. In either case, justice requires that government take the ill-gotten gains of the few and restore them to their rightful owners - in other word redistribute the income. While no one actually describes the sources of income this way, the logic of some arguments about the sources of income implies such a vision.
Man, I really do think that some folks think this way! You just cannot argue against irrational thinking like that...
Hey, F.R., are you suggesting that the above quote was what the author of that article believed? Maybe I am misreading you.

Walter E. Williams used that opening to illustrate exactly what he (and you, obviously) are against. Re-read the second sentence carefully. Williams is a brilliant teacher of conservative economics, and I know he abhors the thinking he used for illustration in his first paragraph. Read the rest of the article. You too will become a fan. IMHO, Williams is the best teacher of basic economics I have ever read. http://econfaculty.gmu.edu/wew/

(Here's the link to the original cited article, as it is far back in this thread!)
http://econfaculty.gmu.edu/wew/articles ... reneur.htm
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Re: Why piracy isnt theft

Post by DrHu »

hinto wrote:Right and Wrong exist outside of culture.
I shapes it, not the other way around.
-Hinto
..I shapes it, not the other way around.
Are you really so sure about that
Can one individual influence a whole culture, and if so, are all individuals capable of that feat.
Right and Wrong exist outside of culture.
I don't beleive so: a different culture will see a crime (right and wrong) very differently, and the people from that culture would show those same characteristics

Obviously yes it does, for in a different culture from our own, there can very well be differences of behavior or attitudes or ethical choices..
--but how right or wrong (moral choices or ethics) exist outside any culture, I would have no idea: maybe an extraterrestrial could be different from the human norms.

And yes, everyone is an individual in someway, but if you know their background/culture, you will likely have a better idea of the general mindset they may have: unless they are completely divorced from their cultural base
--I would call that what an anthropologist understands

The biggest influence on children is their parents: their behaviors, their attitudes, their choices, their ethics and their culture
--later this is adjusted to or adapted to by that individual who then assumes responsibility for personal decisions and choices.

But being born anywhere puts any one of us into the context of the culture we are born into, as it is: we as babies/children can do nothing about that, we can only accept it for what it is or teaches us.
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Re: Why piracy isnt theft

Post by FedoraRefugee »

waldo wrote:
FedoraRefugee wrote:The first paragraph alone says it all!
Let's start off with a brief discussion of the sources of income. That's important because some of the rhetoric one hears gives the impression that income is somehow distributed - there's a dealer of dollars. Thus, one might think that the reason some people have more income than others is that the dollar dealer is a racist, a sexist, or a multi-nationalist who deals out dollars unfairly. Or, alternatively, the reason that some people are richer than others is because they got to the pile of money first and took an unfair share. In either case, justice requires that government take the ill-gotten gains of the few and restore them to their rightful owners - in other word redistribute the income. While no one actually describes the sources of income this way, the logic of some arguments about the sources of income implies such a vision.
Man, I really do think that some folks think this way! You just cannot argue against irrational thinking like that...
Hey, F.R., are you suggesting that the above quote was what the author of that article believed? Maybe I am misreading you.

Walter E. Williams used that opening to illustrate exactly what he (and you, obviously) are against. Re-read the second sentence carefully. Williams is a brilliant teacher of conservative economics, and I know he abhors the thinking he used for illustration in his first paragraph. Read the rest of the article. You too will become a fan. IMHO, Williams is the best teacher of basic economics I have ever read. http://econfaculty.gmu.edu/wew/

(Here's the link to the original cited article, as it is far back in this thread!)
http://econfaculty.gmu.edu/wew/articles ... reneur.htm
Yeah, I did read it all. A couple times actually, it was an awesome, excellent read! I totally agree with him. Yes, the leading paragraph I quoted was explaining the opposite mentality. It is that thinking that I called irrational. There is no money pile and there is no set amount everyone is entitled to.

Thanks for the links!
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Re: Why piracy isnt theft

Post by deleted »

Too much to quote so I'll just do @DrHu
Yes one individual can shape a culture... The obvious one is Christ. (there are others, if you want me to name them, Gandhi, MLK, Einstein)

If cultures decide Right and Wrong, then that's call Moral Relativism, and that's more or less making it up as we go along. History is chock full of examples where a culture thought it was Right, but dead Wrong.

Yes, the biggest influence on children is their parents, but parents aren't teaching Right and Wrong, unless they believe it themselves, which is hit or miss.

-Hinto
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Re: Why piracy isnt theft

Post by Biker »

Looks like there will be around 5,000 individuals who will have the opportunity to explain their case and tell a judge why piracy isn't theft.

http://www.tgdaily.com/business-and-law ... rent-users
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Re: Why piracy isnt theft

Post by FedoraRefugee »

Biker wrote:Looks like there will be around 5,000 individuals who will have the opportunity to explain their case and tell a judge why piracy isn't theft.

http://www.tgdaily.com/business-and-law ... rent-users
Awesome! A message needs to be sent.
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Re: Why piracy isnt theft

Post by randomizer »

It's good to see a "reasonable" (relatively speaking) settlement is being offered out of court. We all know how much they enjoy bankrupting people once they get in court.
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