Why piracy isnt theft

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Re: Why piracy isnt theft

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eiver wrote:If you don't believe in God the you can still assume that our world follows the rules of logic.
Not really because there is no compelling reason that the world would be logical.
-Hinto
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Re: Why piracy isnt theft

Post by MALsPa »

FedoraRefugee wrote:
MALsPa wrote:
FedoraRefugee wrote:Hence religion is illogical.
:D
You know better than taking quotes out of context! :(

And you should know better than to take me too seriously, FedoraRefugee.

You know my opinion: Discussions about religion and politics should be held elsewhere, not in Linux forums.

But since they're gonna be held in the Linux Mint forums no matter how I feel about it, then I have just as much right to crack jokes in the middle of the threads as you have the right to discuss religion or politics in the first place. Even if it means having a little fun with it by quoting you out of context. K?
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Re: Why piracy isnt theft

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MALsPa wrote:And you should know better than to take me too seriously, FedoraRefugee.

You know my opinion: Discussions about religion and politics should be held elsewhere, not in Linux forums.

But since they're gonna be held in the Linux Mint forums no matter how I feel about it, then I have just as much right to crack jokes in the middle of the threads as you have the right to discuss religion or politics in the first place. Even if it means having a little fun with it by quoting you out of context. K?
Oh, relax. I know you were just joking. :D

But you do understand that I had to point out that my quote was out of context.
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Re: Why piracy isnt theft

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Just think what is the very purpose of a discussion - you want to convince as many people as possible to your ideas or statements. If you use God as an argument you only have a chance of convincing people who believe (and only if in addition to that you make your argument the right way). However maybe there are some ways to convince non-believers too? When arguing with a non-believer, the moment you mention God is the moment when the discussion ends in a inconclusive state. Can you do better than that and somehow win a discussion with a non-believer?
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Re: Why piracy isnt theft

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eiver wrote:Can you do better than that and somehow win a discussion with a non-believer?
It's not about winning an argument. Ultimately it's not the Christian the non-believer has to convince.
http://www.metrolyrics.com/when-the-pin ... ckers.html

-Hinto
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Re: Why piracy isnt theft

Post by eiver »

hinto wrote:
eiver wrote:If you don't believe in God the you can still assume that our world follows the rules of logic.
Not really because there is no compelling reason that the world would be logical.
-Hinto
You don't need any reason. It is an axiom! Just like you are not trying to find a reason why does God exist.
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Re: Why piracy isnt theft

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eiver wrote:You don't need any reason. It is an axiom!
So we make up the rules as we go along? HMMMM... This is interesting.
-H
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Re: Why piracy isnt theft

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FedoraRefugee wrote:But you do understand that I had to point out that my quote was out of context.
Yes, sir.
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Re: Why piracy isnt theft

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eiver wrote:Just think what is the very purpose of a discussion - you want to convince as many people as possible to your ideas or statements. If you use God as an argument you only have a chance of convincing people who believe (and only if in addition to that you make your argument the right way). However maybe there are some ways to convince non-believers too? When arguing with a non-believer, the moment you mention God is the moment when the discussion ends in a inconclusive state. Can you do better than that and somehow win a discussion with a non-believer?
TBH, I am not deluded into believing that I will change anyone's position whether I use God or not! :D

Like it or not God comes with me everywhere I go. I know...This drives atheists nuts about Christians...They just cannot understand. One of my favorite bumper stickers is a response to another that states:
God is my co-pilot!
The response states:
If God is your co-pilot then you better switch seats!
God is not my "dirty little secret" that I need to hide from society, though the secular world is ever pushing for Christians to behave this way. And unfortunately more and more are complying. No sir, I shout about God from every rooftop. He is not just a part of my life, He IS my life. Without God nothing makes sense, and we see this simply by looking at the world today. That is why, no matter how hard non-believers try to make things better, it only gets worse. You want to fix ALL problems? Turn back to God! But...I do majorly digress...

It is ironic because it was you who wanted to keep morals and such out of this thread and here you led it right down this road!!! I do not mind, I go wherever the conversation leads, as I told you yesterday. But maybe we should get back to the piracy issue. Just please understand that some of us will include God in our argument because we cannot do otherwise. That is the main problem with this issue. Without God then you ARE free to define your own morals, values, and laws. That is why so many do not see a problem with this issue. For me it is an easy issue. Thou shalt not steal, not to mention thou shalt not covet. It is as black and white as it gets. :D
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Re: Why piracy isnt theft

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FedoraRefugee wrote:Without God nothing makes sense, and we see this simply by looking at the world today.
You say without God nothing makes sense, but for many people, the opposite is true.

My views help me to make sense of the universe and of my existence. Sounds like yours do the same for you.
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Re: Why piracy isnt theft

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hinto wrote:
eiver wrote:You don't need any reason. It is an axiom!
So we make up the rules as we go along? HMMMM... This is interesting.
-H
You need some axioms. When I say something you can ask me: "Why?" When I explain it, you can again ask - "Why?" We need to stop doing this at some point or we will enter an infinite loop. Axioms are used to guarantee this loop will be terminated. But you cannot create axioms as we go along. If you choose stupid axioms, someone will be able to easily beat you in argument using the "attack on the axioms" method I mentioned earlier. Choose axioms which cannot be disproved easily.
FedoraRefugee wrote:Just please understand that some of us will include God in our argument because we cannot do otherwise.
Great but this only leads us even further from the main topic. We already know, that stealing is wrong as defined by God, so we can finish the "God argument" here. Actually nobody said otherwise in this topic as far as I remember. There was an argument whether stealing is the same as piracy. Or can it be justified is some special cases? How about moving the discussion towards these fields.
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Re: Why piracy isnt theft

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eiver wrote:
FedoraRefugee wrote:Just please understand that some of us will include God in our argument because we cannot do otherwise.
Great but this only leads us even further from the main topic. We already know, that stealing is wrong as defined by God, so we can finish the "God argument" here. Actually nobody said otherwise in this topic as far as I remember. There was an argument whether stealing is the same as piracy. Or can it be justified is some special cases? How about moving the discussion towards these fields.
I don't think that the believers will be able to discuss the main topic, or any of quite a few other topics, without bringing "God" into it. What FR said above.
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Re: Why piracy isnt theft

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MALsPa wrote:
FedoraRefugee wrote:Without God nothing makes sense, and we see this simply by looking at the world today.
You say without God nothing makes sense, but for many people, the opposite is true.

My views help me to make sense of the universe and of my existence. Sounds like yours do the same for you.
No offense my friend, but it has only been a couple hundred years since atheists even emerged. Oh, there were always one or two that were too intelligent to believe in God, but it was not until the enlightenment period that atheism became relatively commonplace. Even at that, other than a handful of "alternate thinkers" most people believed in God up until the 1960's. It has only been a couple generations now that have completely turned away. Give it time. :D

The problem is that without God you lose your foundation. Morals are now up for grabs. As Hinto says, you make it up as you go along. Little by little. Killing unborn babies is no longer considered wrong, it is now an individual choice. Homosexuality is no longer an abberation, it is now not only acceptable but even encouraged. Pornography has always been around, but now it is so commonplace it does not even raise an eyebrow. Then there is piracy. You yourself feels that it is okay to download for free what others pay money for. I am not passing any judgment on you, but this is a great example of what I am saying. Anything goes. In the effort to ensure equality and protection for all we creep ever deeper into desensitizing ourselves to things that should abhor us. Anything goes. As long as some collegeboy can use fancy words to justify it then it will be allowed. You have no foundation, no base upon which you can determine right from wrong.

Man has always tried to be his own master. Thanks to Charles Lyell and Charles Darwin the die was finally cast to justify our existence without God. And boy did man jump on that! God is dead! Now we are free to write our own law. But the vestiges of God's law hang on. But it grows weaker and weaker. One by one God's clear commands get watered down. Sure, you can lie sometimes! You do not have to respect your parents if they do not respect you! Nothing wrong with sleeping with your neighbor's wife, after all, we are all consenting adults! Just give it time my friend! We know that in the end good will become as evil and evil good. Sounds like we are getting close!
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Re: Why piracy isnt theft

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FedoraRefugee wrote:it was not until the enlightenment period that atheism became relatively commonplace
Ironic choice of words.
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Re: Why piracy isnt theft

Post by FedoraRefugee »

MALsPa wrote:
FedoraRefugee wrote:it was not until the enlightenment period that atheism became relatively commonplace
Ironic choice of words.
That is the name of the period in history. Man became "enlightened' in many ways. :D
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Re: Why piracy isnt theft

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FedoraRefugee wrote:That is the name of the period in history.
really? :shock:
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Re: Why piracy isnt theft

Post by FedoraRefugee »

MALsPa wrote:
FedoraRefugee wrote:That is the name of the period in history.
really? :shock:
lol. :lol:

sorry...Nick must be rubbing off on me. :lol:
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Re: Why piracy isnt theft

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eiver wrote:
DrHu wrote:Logic and Ethics are not the same thing
Of course they are not. Ethics was first discussed in ancient Greece by philosophers and priests of all religions, as you have said. Ethics was created by a very long process of evolution of beliefs. However today we can use logic to explain why the process created ethics in its current shape. And that is what I meant by connecting logic and ethics. So we can remove any religion and beliefs from the equation and only stick with logic and still explain why ethics today looks the way it does. (I hope I didn't sound to Vulcan :P).
..However today we can use logic to explain why the process created ethics in its current shape
And yet, I have not been overly impressed with AI

(I hope I didn't sound to Vulcan..
--I always found Spock fascinating

Let me respond this way:
All I can say about later knowledge or understanding is that it is always a rereading of history, where the originals are dismissed out of hand, because they are not of the same era or in the same thought process
yes, that's evolution at play..

The fact that a new model of thinking allows a different style of reading does not eliminate the original; in fact one can often go back to the original data and see how well advanced their understanding really was, despite our arrogance in thinking "now we do understand"
The Shape of Ancient Thought
http://www.amazon.com/reader/1581152035 ... eader-link
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Re: Why piracy isnt theft

Post by Biker »

DrHu wrote:And yet, I have not been overly impressed with AI
Until systems become massively parallel (similar to the human brain), AI will remain at the state it's in today.
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Re: Why piracy isnt theft

Post by FedoraRefugee »

Biker wrote:
DrHu wrote:And yet, I have not been overly impressed with AI
Until systems become massively parallel (similar to the human brain), AI will remain at the state it's in today.
I do not regret the period I was born into...After all, I saw the switch from analog to digital, almost as significant as sail to steam. The rise of the computer age.

But I do regret that I will not live to see this day. :( AI has so many possibilities...
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