Cumbria shootings cum creation debate thread. Happy?

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Old Marcus
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Cumbria shootings cum creation debate thread. Happy?

Post by Old Marcus »

For the Yanks here, this is fairly tame, but for us, the last mass shooting was the Dunblane massacre in '96, which led to the banning of nearly all forms of guns.

So far, the suspect is a taxi driver, who has been found dead. I'm betting this has gone the way most of them do, shoot lots of people, then shoot yourself.

13 dead including the gunman, 25 injured.

Read more.
Last edited by Old Marcus on Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gunman goes on ramage in Cumbria

Post by FedoraRefugee »

Heard about it. Lot of good that gun ban is doing y'all! :roll:

I cannot say that if some of your citizens were armed he would have been stopped, drive-bys happen so fast anyway...But the more good citizens that are armed the less you would hear about incidents like this. When a nutjob wants to kill he will find a way. Unless he is stopped he will go on killing. That is the way the world has always been and it will not be changed by some silly laws.

I will say a prayer tonight for the families of the victims. That is the worse way to be killed, when you did nothing but mind your own business...

BTW, no killing like this is ever tame Marcus. :(

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Re: Gunman goes on ramage in Cumbria

Post by Carl »

FedoraRefugee wrote:Heard about it. Lot of good that gun ban is doing y'all! :roll:
Ha HA HA thats a joke right? :roll:

seriously the last mass killing in the UK was in 1996 according to the post above yours, so when was the last one in America...?

a quick Google says it all :?

and we still have guns in the UK it's just that not every nutjob here has one
Last edited by Carl on Wed Jun 02, 2010 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Gunman goes on ramage in Cumbria

Post by Old Marcus »

No, it is not tame, but your argument on this being stopped is null and void tbh.

In recent history, we have had three massacres. Hungerford, Dunblane and now Cumbria. The first two happened before the gun ban. People didn't whip out their Glocks and return fire, even though such guns were available.

In Virginia Tech, all people did was hide in classrooms, I don't remember any of them making a heroic last stand. Nor did they in various other massacres that have happened in the US. My point is that even if guns were available, people rarely use them and normally hide. How many of them would be a good shot when in shock and panicking anyway? Ex army or police would react with a degree of discipline, but not the average joe.

Btw, not trying to undermine the victims of Virginia Tech, just explaining that an epic rambo style shootout is not on most people's minds in this situation.
Last edited by Old Marcus on Wed Jun 02, 2010 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gunman goes on ramage in Cumbria

Post by FedoraRefugee »

America has how many citizens compared to the UK?

No, it was not a joke. I take such things VERY seriously. Maybe we do have many more incidents over here, all the more reason to have a gun! I will protect my family, what are you going to do when someone breaks into your house in the middle of the night? Not only do I own 4 handguns, 2 shotguns and 4 rifles, I have a CCW in the state of Florida and routinely carry wherever I go. Most people I know do the same. I enjoy my firearms, nothing is more pleasant than time on the range with my wife and kids. Or hunting with my sons.

Maybe if some of those students at Virginia Tech had been armed the shooter could have been stopped sooner? There are now legal battles going on at several colleges where the students are demanding the right to carry their concealed weapon. I have a feeling they may win. Gun rights are getting better in this country, you can even open carry in many states. The only way to stop force is with force. Otherwise you are nothing but a sheep ready for the slaughter.

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Re: Gunman goes on ramage in Cumbria

Post by Old Marcus »

Do you have extensive experience of shooting while being shot at out of the blue? No? Thought not.

In your home, I can see the advantage of a firearm. It makes a burglar think twice before burgling, but out in the open, if some loony opens fire, I doubt most gun owners, even if they had a gun on them, would be likely to immediately return fire. Unless you have been trained, incidents like this take you by surprise.
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Re: Gunman goes on ramage in Cumbria

Post by FedoraRefugee »

Old Marcus wrote:Do you have extensive experience of shooting while being shot at out of the blue? No? Thought not.

In your home, I can see the advantage of a firearm. It makes a burglar think twice before burgling, but out in the open, if some loony opens fire, I doubt most gun owners, even if they had a gun on them, would be likely to immediately return fire. Unless you have been trained, incidents like this take you by surprise.
There is a large measure of truth to this. You also have to be aware of what else is in range when you shoot. I would hate to have to try to hit someone with a large crowd behind them. I would not take that shot. Even in a house you have to be aware of what is behind the wall. I would actually prefer to use a shotgun in a house for that reason.

But none of this is an argument for not being armed. I hope the day never comes when I have to fire at a person. I honestly do not know if I could kill someone unless my life or my family were directly threatened. If you stumble on a gun battle in a street how do you tell the good guy from the bad? Cops can be plainclothes, you really need to have total situational awareness to get involved.

Another factor is that NO amount of training will totally prepare you for a real life situation. Even professional law enforcement faces this. The training I have is equivalent to most police forces in this country. But until you are in a situation you do not know how you will react.

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Re: Gunman goes on ramage in Cumbria

Post by Old Marcus »

You say people should be armed, but you also say you wouldn't be able to react properly in such a situation. So what is the point of the gun?

Guns are merely a means to an end. The thing is, they are a very efficient means to kill with, so limiting their availability reduces the likelihood of them being used. If there were no guns available, it would be a nutter running people over, or stabbing people. Should everyone be armed with a knife? In situations like this, there is very little you can do.
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Re: Gunman goes on ramage in Cumbria

Post by FedoraRefugee »

Old Marcus wrote:You say people should be armed, but you also say you wouldn't be able to react properly in such a situation. So what is the point of the gun?
Did I say that? Or are you trying to put words into my post to prove your point? :wink:
Guns are merely a means to an end. The thing is, they are a very efficient means to kill with, so limiting their availability reduces the likelihood of them being used. If there were no guns available, it would be a nutter running people over, or stabbing people. Should everyone be armed with a knife? In situations like this, there is very little you can do.
Exactly!!! The thing is, you ban guns and the law abiding citizens follow the law and do not own guns. But how about criminals? If you wanted a handgun could you get one? Unless you are totally naive and live under a rock I think you could. So really, what is the point?

Let me add this; you always hear about the mass killing sprees, but very rarely do the incidents of regular citizens protecting themselves make the national news. But these incidents happen every day. One recent one was a woman out west who got national attention because of the 911 call she made. Some drunk was trying to break into her house. She called 911 and told the operator what was happening and said she had a shotgun. The operator wanted her to lock herself into a small bathroom. She refused, you do not want to fire a shotgun in a small space, you need room to move. Eventually the dude picked up an outdoor chair and broke the sliding glass door. She fired and killed him. Thank God she had the gun!

Another incident happened recently in Orlando, near where I am. A guy tried to carjack a truck. The owner of the truck was accosted in a parking lot almost to the vehicle. He fought the attacker off and got into the truck but the dude managed to get the door opened and was trying to pull the owner out of the truck. The owner had a small .22 pistol on the seat. Shot the guy dead! This is Florida, we have the right to protect ourselves and our property. A place that does not allow this basic human right is backwards and no place I want to live.

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Re: Gunman goes on ramage in Cumbria

Post by Old Marcus »

Both those incidents involve people defending property. A similar thing happened here a few years ago, a guy killed a man who was trying to kill him. The victim got off on grounds of self defence, no guns involved. Guns are rarely used in crimes in the UK, and when they are, they are normally gang killings that happen without warning, no chance to react. Even when our gun laws were looser we had few gun crimes compared to other forms of crime. In the US, a gun is probably a good idea, as is a machete in Columbia, but here, guns just aren't needed. Knives are a far more common weapon to be threatened with and to be honest, most of the people that wave them around haven't a clue how to use them, nor do they have the guts to use them.
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Re: Gunman goes on ramage in Cumbria

Post by Carl »

Old Marcus wrote:Both those incidents involve people defending property. A similar thing happened here a few years ago, a guy killed a man who was trying to kill him. The victim got off on grounds of self defence, no guns involved. Guns are rarely used in crimes in the UK, and when they are, they are normally gang killings that happen without warning, no chance to react. Even when our gun laws were looser we had few gun crimes compared to other forms of crime. In the US, a gun is probably a good idea, as is a machete in Columbia, but here, guns just aren't needed. Knives are a far more common weapon to be threatened with and to be honest, most of the people that wave them around haven't a clue how to use them, nor do they have the guts to use them.
+1

Knives are much more of a problem here in the UK, or broken bottles :shock: amount of people in A&E on a friday who have been bottled is insane :?

and FedoraRefugee I do see you point about owning guns and the need to protect your family but I myself feel that if I had a gun I would probably hessitate to use it alot more then some gun toting maniac... considering he's not really in the mood to care whats in his way :shock:

all in all I say we agree to disagree :lol:

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Re: Gunman goes on ramage in Cumbria

Post by tinca »

Hi all,

instead of talking about arming oneself or not, and whether this is a good move or not, can we all spare a thought for the victims in this shooting and offer a supportive "sorry".

Best regards Keith

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Re: Gunman goes on ramage in Cumbria

Post by Old Marcus »

Agreed, I got caught up in a gun debate which has been discussed ad nauseum in the past.

What happened yesterday was shocking, more so because it just doesn't happen that often here. My thoughts go out to the families and friends of those dead, including those of Derrick Bird, the killer himself.
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Re: Gunman goes on ramage in Cumbria

Post by FedoraRefugee »

tinca wrote:Hi all,

instead of talking about arming oneself or not, and whether this is a good move or not, can we all spare a thought for the victims in this shooting and offer a supportive "sorry".

Best regards Keith
Try looking at my first post, post number 2 of the thread, third paragraph.

Thank you.

edit: BTW, I think YOU forgot to mention YOUR feelings about the victims. :D

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Re: Gunman goes on ramage in Cumbria

Post by monkeyboy »

Another gun debate. OK the US is an armed culture and not all its citizens are responsible in the use of their tools. That being said I don't care because as a member of that culture, my odds of eating a round are very low. If you live in this culture and vote your opinion matters if not, I don't give a rodent copulation what you think.
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Re: Gunman goes on ramage in Cumbria

Post by markfiend »

monkeyboy wrote:Another gun debate. OK the US is an armed culture and not all its citizens are responsible in the use of their tools. That being said I don't care because as a member of that culture, my odds of eating a round are very low. If you live in this culture and vote your opinion matters if not, I don't give a rodent copulation what you think.
Seeing as this case is in the UK -- largely an unarmed culture -- not the USA... "If you live in this culture and vote your opinion matters if not, I don't give a rodent copulation what you think." :wink:
FedoraRefugee wrote:If you stumble on a gun battle in a street how do you tell the good guy from the bad? Cops can be plainclothes, you really need to have total situational awareness to get involved.
^this.

Also, I seem to remember hearing that most gun-injuries in the USA are caused with the victim's own gun, can anyone confirm or deny this?

I don't really know where I stand on gun-control issues; I know that the only guns I've ever seen were in the hands of the police (and even then, only at airports and outside the UK -- I'm sure most people know that our "bobbies" generally don't carry guns.) I know that I don't like guns.

But that isn't exactly a cogent argument for gun-control is it? Any more than "the constitution says X, Y, Z" is really a cogent argument against gun-control IMO. But it's a subject on which emotions can run very high. I have a mental image of Charlton Heston right now...

Anyway, guns can be a necessary tool (I'm thinking of farmers with shotguns here) or even (I'm told) a fun piece of sporting equipment. IMO a knee-jerk anti-gun reaction isn't what's needed right now. I'm damn sure that (thanks to the Daily Fail and its ilk) it's what will happen though.

A friend of a friend is actually directly involved in this (witness to the first killing) so I don't want to dig too much into the particulars of the case. Suffice it to say that everyone affected is in my thoughts at this difficult time.
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Re: Gunman goes on ramage in Cumbria

Post by MALsPa »

It's interesting that many in the U.S. like to say that this is a "Christian nation." I cannot imagine that Christ would have ever approved of owning a gun. If He walked the Earth today, no way would He be packing. Would He? :cry:

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Re: Gunman goes on ramage in Cumbria

Post by FedoraRefugee »

MALsPa wrote:It's interesting that many in the U.S. like to say that this is a "Christian nation." I cannot imagine that Christ would have ever approved of owning a gun. If He walked the Earth today, no way would He be packing. Would He? :cry:
Lol, He wouldn't NEED to! :lol:

But let's not read too much into the Bible, there is nothing in it that says we cannot defend ourselves! Quite the contrary actually.

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Re: Gunman goes on ramage in Cumbria

Post by MALsPa »

FedoraRefugee wrote:But let's not read too much into the Bible, there is nothing in it that says we cannot defend ourselves! Quite the contrary actually.
Yeah, let's not read too much into the Bible!

Matthew 5:38-42 and Luke 6:27-31 at first glance appear to show Christ's pacifist nature quite plainly, but as with almost everything concerning the Bible, it depends on who you ask! Different people interpret things differently. I've heard arguments (and, not unconvincing ones) that these passages are in no way pacifist, and that those who think so are taking things out of context. The same passages are viewed completely differently by different people, and all of them are believers. Who's right? Well, of course if you feel that it's okay to own guns to protect yourself and your family, then you can find things in the Bible to justify your position. If you are a pacifist, same thing.

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Re: Gunman goes on ramage in Cumbria

Post by MALsPa »

FedoraRefugee wrote: Lol, He wouldn't NEED to!
Many people would say that nobody who has accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior needs to carry a gun for protection.

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