The Mint Café

Chat about just about anything else
Lady Fitzgerald
Level 4
Level 4
Posts: 483
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:12 pm
Location: AZ, SSA (Squabbling States of America)

Re: The Mint Café

Post by Lady Fitzgerald »

lsemmens wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 3:58 am
Telling a Down's Syndrome child s/he can become, say, a theoretical physicist would not only be wrong, it would be cruel.
There, you may be incorrect. Just because they have some impairment does not mean that they cannot be successful A theoretical physics degree may not necessarily be possible for many, just as many could not become renown actors, yet, there are numerous actors who suffer from that condition.
[/quote]

Methinks you (and later posters) missed the point. I'm saying People with Down's Syndrome cannot accomplish things outside their capabilities, not that they can't be successful at anything, period. Sadly, there are many people who believe people can accomplish anything, no matter their abilities or lack of them, simply because they want it. It's belittling and demoralizing to the people who cannot due to limitations that are not their fault when they have that rammed down their throats.
Jeannie

Linux Mint Cinnamon 19.3 Cinnamon 64 bit
System 76 Serval WS (serw11) 17" Laptop

User avatar
coffee412
Level 6
Level 6
Posts: 1064
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:38 pm
Location: Indiana, USA
Contact:

Re: The Mint Café

Post by coffee412 »

Lady Fitzgerald wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:25 pm
Methinks you (and later posters) missed the point. I'm saying People with Down's Syndrome cannot accomplish things outside their capabilities, not that they can't be successful at anything, period. Sadly, there are many people who believe people can accomplish anything, no matter their abilities or lack of them, simply because they want it. It's belittling and demoralizing to the people who cannot due to limitations that are not their fault when they have that rammed down their throats.
In World War II in Britain there was a fighter pilot that was severely crippled in a plane accident. He lost both legs. Even when the best efforts where made to preserve his legs they were sadly amputated. He spent weeks in recovery and was consoled on what he could and could not do. However, His real passion was flying and he didnt want to give that up. Every day he had nurses catering to his every need. He sat in a wheel chair most of the time and watched as his fellow fighter pilots took to the air. Sadly, He was told that its best to retire and accept his fate. However, He never bothered to believe them and insisted on a pair of wooden legs. He spent every day learning to walk with these legs. It was a hard process. Many times he collapsed in pain and agony. Eventually he taught himself how to walk again. Then one day - and to the surprise of his fellow pilots - He walked out to a Spitfire using his crutches as he learned to do and got himself in the plane and took off. He found that even though he had no legs he could easily maneuver his wooden legs to handle the aircraft. When he finally landed the plane he was met by his superior and faced severe discipline for almost killing himself in what they thought was an act of insanity. However, He was able to convince them to let him fly. As it turned out he became one of the best fighter pilots in Britain. His aerial maneuvers became the talk of legend. Later when asked how he was able to accomplish such feats and score so many kills he replied "Since I have no legs, When in a high speed maneuver my blood has no where else to go. So, I never suffered from blackouts and found that I can withstand the limits that the airplane could provide. I can easily line up a kill and no matter what the enemy tried I could always close the gap and score the kill".

You see, Douglas Bader never listened to those telling him what the limits of his capabilities were.

There are many people living in the most prosperous countries in the world and yet every day they never strive to better their financial and mental well being. They never test the boundaries of their capabilities. For them it is easier to blame someone or something else for their troubles instead of attempting to rise above their circumstances. For them its just more comfortable to accept a check from the government then actually enrich themselves with the knowledge they need to become a valuable asset in society. They associate with people that pity them because of their perceived handicap which in reality is a simple lack of effort. Douglas Bader never accepted this and neither should anyone else.
Ryzen x1800 Asus Prime x370-Pro 32 gigs Ram RX480 graphics
IceWarp 12.0.3 * Mint 18.3 * RAID 1/5 * OpenVPN * Linux since kernel 2.0.36
************* Get Your Linux on! ***************

Lady Fitzgerald
Level 4
Level 4
Posts: 483
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:12 pm
Location: AZ, SSA (Squabbling States of America)

Re: The Mint Café

Post by Lady Fitzgerald »

You are also missing the point. You are conflating physical abilities with innate talent. Some people are tone deaf and can never learn to sing in tune no matter how hard they try or much they want to. Some people are color blind; they will never be able to distinguish one color from another. Not everyone can grasp higher math, no matter how they try. most people will never have strength of super athletes due to their genetic makeup.

I have various learning disabilities, not least of which is ADHD. Many people with ADHD can function better with medications (sadly I wasn't one of them) or using "crutches" (written reminders, developing routines, etc.) to compensate for the areas they have problems. Telling them they can overcome their learning disabilities if they want it enough or try hard enough is not only wrong, it's cruel and demoralizing. I should know; I had to deal with that crap until I was diagnosed with ADHD back when I was in my early 50s. Now, I know how to compensate for it (much I was already doing before learning I had ADHD) and I'm able to function much better but there will be things I will have trouble doing or never will be able to do.

Before any of you armchair psychologists chime in, where did you get your psychology degree? I got mine from Abilene Christian College.
Jeannie

Linux Mint Cinnamon 19.3 Cinnamon 64 bit
System 76 Serval WS (serw11) 17" Laptop

User avatar
lsemmens
Level 10
Level 10
Posts: 3414
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2014 9:07 pm
Location: Rural South Australia

Re: The Mint Café

Post by lsemmens »

I have 21% permanent brain damage from a drunk who tried to park on top of me at 100kph. Of course there are limitations, many, though, are just your way of thinking. I will never play tennis like John MacEnroe but that should not prevent me from trying to play tennis at all. I can't hold a tune to save myself, but I'll still sing along with the crowd. As a muso, I have a shocking sense of timing, but I played quite successfully in Church bands with some professional musicians for over 40 years.

The only reason many people don't succeed at anything is because they haven't tried or been given the encouragement to do so. Of course if they try and fail, you do not belittle them for failing, but you do praise the attempt. The old cliche about Thomas Edison and the light globe springs to mind here. We have a friend who works in a sheltered workshop. Until her mother died she displayed no interest in cooking or decorating. She has now become quite an accomplished cook and has amazing decorating skills. Both, of which, she readily admits, never interested her.

As a comment on higher math, I never could get my head around calculus despite knowing the principles. That does not stop me trying to "get it".
Fully mint Household
Out of my mind - please leave a message

User avatar
coffee412
Level 6
Level 6
Posts: 1064
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:38 pm
Location: Indiana, USA
Contact:

Re: The Mint Café

Post by coffee412 »

The only reason many people don't succeed at anything is because they haven't tried or been given the encouragement to do so
This is the whole crux of the problem. There are many people that tend to discourage you from obtaining (or at least trying) to obtain your dreams. What is interesting is that some people do this not because they want you to fail but rather because they do not want you to get hurt or discouraged. In reality even though their intentions are good what they are really doing is holding people back from the attempt at success.

How many have heard the saying "Its better to try and fail then to never try at all". This is advice that seems to be set aside in this age. In my opinion the true definition of failure is to give up. Therefore, If you never give up on obtaining a goal then you have never failed. Failure at an attempt should really be looked as a learning experience. A lot can be gained from a failed attempt to help you further your attempts at reaching your goal.

Sheltering someone from failure is really an attempt to keep them from experiencing the feelings of failure. However, Without experiencing failure you will never appreciate success. Thru failure we get an accurate idea of what it takes to succeed and what our true limits are. With that in mind we can come up with a winning plan to succeed. If you want to truly experience success then you have to accept failure as part of obtaining success. Failures are the building blocks to achieving your goals.

If you want a better income then you must put forth the effort and sacrifice to obtain that goal. This is why such leaders as those that created companies like HP, IBM, McDonald's are rich. Because of their hard work, Sacrifice and risk taking they have become unbelievably wealthy. Now contrast that to the worker at a fast food restaurant. Their investment in success is minimal and their risk is very little. They are comfortable in that they are not taking any risks. All they have to do is show up for work and do the tasks they were hired to perform. Yet they complain about their income. They demand more money so that they also can enjoy the benefits of success. However, They do not realize that success comes from developing a plan to better themselves and thus becoming more valuable asset to their employer or other employers that will recognize their worth. They are unwilling to take the steps necessary to climb the ladder of success. They just demand the benefits of success and listen to those that tell them that is a God given right. Nothing is farther from the truth.

Lets stray from this topic a bit to take a look at what I just said in the last paragraph.

There is a big effort by those workers in the fast food industry to increase their minimum wage far above what they earn now to over 15.00 dollars an hour. With this type of increase in hourly wage the money has to come from somewhere. Therefore the cost of the product has to rise. As the cost of the product rises these workers will realize that their buying power ultimately has not changed. Perhaps also the employer will look to cut costs to afford this wage increase and start laying off workers. With the layoff of workers the burden of extra work is shifted to those still remaining. Perhaps also the alternative for the employer is simply close the company down or move it to somewhere where the cost of labor is less. So, Success has not come to these workers. The definition of success still holds - The employee's have gained nothing because they have not fulfilled the requirements for success. All they had to realize is that if they wanted a better living income they should look to making themselves more valuable to the economy by developing better skills. Success can only be achieved thru dedication and hard work to a goal.



None of the below comments have anything to do with Success.
Some people are tone deaf and can never learn to sing in tune no matter how hard they try or much they want to.
Some people are color blind; they will never be able to distinguish one color from another.
Ludwig Van Beethoven, Will.i.am, Thomas Edison, many more.
Not everyone can grasp higher math, no matter how they try.
Higher math is not a prerequisite for Success. One of the richest men in my home town is the junk yard owner.
most people will never have strength of super athletes due to their genetic makeup.

Most people do not want to be Super Athletes. Most define Success in other terms.
Ryzen x1800 Asus Prime x370-Pro 32 gigs Ram RX480 graphics
IceWarp 12.0.3 * Mint 18.3 * RAID 1/5 * OpenVPN * Linux since kernel 2.0.36
************* Get Your Linux on! ***************

Lady Fitzgerald
Level 4
Level 4
Posts: 483
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:12 pm
Location: AZ, SSA (Squabbling States of America)

Re: The Mint Café

Post by Lady Fitzgerald »

:roll: I give up. You all keep missing the point.

Btw, Beethoven was NOT tone deaf. He did have grossly diminished hearing in his later years but he was not "tone deaf". Look up tone deaf.
Jeannie

Linux Mint Cinnamon 19.3 Cinnamon 64 bit
System 76 Serval WS (serw11) 17" Laptop

ColdBootII
Level 5
Level 5
Posts: 696
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:19 am

Re: The Mint Café

Post by ColdBootII »

Lady Fitzgerald wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:43 pm
:roll: I give up. You all keep missing the point.
Hi,

And what's your point? If you mix the debilitated persons, wunderkinds and geniuses into the equation, only to make your point look true, the advice will certainly prove to be a false one. But that didn't prevent you from finding a workaround for your particular problem which boils down to the same thing.

Do you see the contradiction?

User avatar
lsemmens
Level 10
Level 10
Posts: 3414
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2014 9:07 pm
Location: Rural South Australia

Re: The Mint Café

Post by lsemmens »

Your point being, "you have a disability, therefore, you should not try"?
Fully mint Household
Out of my mind - please leave a message

User avatar
Swampthing
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 67
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 2:26 pm
Location: Denmark

Re: The Mint Café

Post by Swampthing »

Happening right now:
One of my kids using LM, for the first time, to do some homework for school, and really nailing it.
His big brother has a Win7 machine that is ripe for an upgrade to LM.

User avatar
Chrysalessence
Level 1
Level 1
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:32 am

Re: The Mint Café

Post by Chrysalessence »

I like the name of this topic because one of my favorite beverages is mint mocha (coffee + cocoa with mint flavor added).
My little red hp laptop hums along with Mint 19.3 Cinnamon on Intel Pentium Gold.

User avatar
Moem
Level 20
Level 20
Posts: 11280
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:14 am
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: The Mint Café

Post by Moem »

Lady Fitzgerald wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:21 pm
I have various learning disabilities, not least of which is ADHD. Many people with ADHD can function better with medications (sadly I wasn't one of them) or using "crutches" (written reminders, developing routines, etc.) to compensate for the areas they have problems. Telling them they can overcome their learning disabilities if they want it enough or try hard enough is not only wrong, it's cruel and demoralizing.
I agree. I don't see it as a good thing to tell people they can do or learn anything they want if they only want it bad enough; we all have different abilities and it makes no sense to pretend this is not the case. It doesn't mean we shouldn't encourage each other to try and learn new things, but surely we can do that without telling untruths?

My partner has limited mobility. It would make no sense, and it would not be a kindness, to tell him that he can definitely run a marathon if he just works really hard at it.
lsemmens wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:09 pm
Your point being, "you have a disability, therefore, you should not try"?
She's said no such thing. I read it as 'there are things you can do, and things you'll never be able to do; try what you want to try, if you succeed that's great, if you don't then maybe it's just not in the cards'.
Image

If your issue is solved, kindly indicate that by editing the first post in the topic, and adding [SOLVED] to the title. Thanks!

Lady Fitzgerald
Level 4
Level 4
Posts: 483
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:12 pm
Location: AZ, SSA (Squabbling States of America)

Re: The Mint Café

Post by Lady Fitzgerald »

Moem wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:59 am
Lady Fitzgerald wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:21 pm
I have various learning disabilities, not least of which is ADHD. Many people with ADHD can function better with medications (sadly I wasn't one of them) or using "crutches" (written reminders, developing routines, etc.) to compensate for the areas they have problems. Telling them they can overcome their learning disabilities if they want it enough or try hard enough is not only wrong, it's cruel and demoralizing.
I agree. I don't see it as a good thing to tell people they can do or learn anything they want if they only want it bad enough; we all have different abilities and it makes no sense to pretend this is not the case. It doesn't mean we shouldn't encourage each other to try and learn new things, but surely we can do that without telling untruths?

My partner has limited mobility. It would make no sense, and it would not be a kindness, to tell him that he can definitely run a marathon if he just works really hard at it.
lsemmens wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:09 pm
Your point being, "you have a disability, therefore, you should not try"?
She's said no such thing. I read it as 'there are things you can do, and things you'll never be able to do; try what you want to try, if you succeed that's great, if you don't then maybe it's just not in the cards'.
Thank you for "getting it" and giving a good alternate explanation.
Jeannie

Linux Mint Cinnamon 19.3 Cinnamon 64 bit
System 76 Serval WS (serw11) 17" Laptop

ColdBootII
Level 5
Level 5
Posts: 696
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:19 am

Re: The Mint Café

Post by ColdBootII »

Moem wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:59 am
My partner has limited mobility. It would make no sense, and it would not be a kindness, to tell him that he can definitely run a marathon if he just works really hard at it.
Oh yeah? Well, this guy seems to disagree strongly with that point of view. :mrgreen:
https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-londo ... 06128.html

Though, it does boil down to weather someone really wants to do something or not, barring extremes, naturally.

BTW, can't get myself to wash the dishes, although I should do that and am able. :mrgreen: But, with a litlle self-inflicted motivation, off I go to do that even if I don't feels like it right now... :mrgreen:

Cheers

User avatar
Moem
Level 20
Level 20
Posts: 11280
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:14 am
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: The Mint Café

Post by Moem »

ColdBootII wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:39 pm
Though, it does boil down to weather someone really wants to do something or not, barring extremes, naturally.
We can disagree on this, it's fine. We do not all need to have the same point of view. You don't need to keep repeating yours.
Just be aware that if you ever meet my partner and say this to him, he will not be best pleased... and there may be others like him.
Image

If your issue is solved, kindly indicate that by editing the first post in the topic, and adding [SOLVED] to the title. Thanks!

ColdBootII
Level 5
Level 5
Posts: 696
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:19 am

Re: The Mint Café

Post by ColdBootII »

Moem wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:44 pm
We can disagree on this, it's fine. We do not all need to have the same point of view. You don't need to keep repeating yours.
Just be aware that if you ever meet my partner and say this to him, he will not be best pleased... and there may be others like him.
I speak from experience too...

Often times, it is no more than inertia. Since I became aware of myself I felt that way ("Ain't doing that" :mrgreen: ) regarding chores. Never well pleased about it either :mrgreen: It is always easiest to sit back doing nothing, do what you like doing, procrastinate or pity oneself instead.

Cheers

User avatar
Moem
Level 20
Level 20
Posts: 11280
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:14 am
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: The Mint Café

Post by Moem »

Your opinion has been made quite clear. :roll:
Image

If your issue is solved, kindly indicate that by editing the first post in the topic, and adding [SOLVED] to the title. Thanks!

Lady Fitzgerald
Level 4
Level 4
Posts: 483
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:12 pm
Location: AZ, SSA (Squabbling States of America)

Re: The Mint Café

Post by Lady Fitzgerald »

ColdBootII wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:39 pm
Moem wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:59 am
My partner has limited mobility. It would make no sense, and it would not be a kindness, to tell him that he can definitely run a marathon if he just works really hard at it.
Oh yeah? Well, this guy seems to disagree strongly with that point of view. :mrgreen:
https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-londo ... 06128.html

Though, it does boil down to weather someone really wants to do something or not, barring extremes, naturally.

BTW, can't get myself to wash the dishes, although I should do that and am able. :mrgreen: But, with a litlle self-inflicted motivation, off I go to do that even if I don't feels like it right now... :mrgreen:

Cheers
Sigh! Where did you get your medical or psychology degree? It must be a pretty darned good one to be able to diagnose people you have never even seen or know without even having examined them.
Jeannie

Linux Mint Cinnamon 19.3 Cinnamon 64 bit
System 76 Serval WS (serw11) 17" Laptop

RollyShed
Level 4
Level 4
Posts: 359
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:58 pm
Location: South Island, New Zealand

Re: The Mint Café

Post by RollyShed »

Lady Fitzgerald wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:12 pm
Sigh! Where did you get your medical or psychology degree?
No, it isn't a degree causing it -
ColdBootII wrote: "Though, it does boil down to weather..."
And Moem said "We can disagree on this, it's fine."

Actually a lot of people would say it was due to global warming......

Mid summer here and one area of the country cut off due to torrential rain while the northern part has a drought and as we all know, Australia was burning down.

Hang on, weren't we talking about being able to do things, that cripples can run a marathon and who is or is not tone deaf?

User avatar
Moem
Level 20
Level 20
Posts: 11280
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:14 am
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: The Mint Café

Post by Moem »

RollyShed wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:27 pm
No, it isn't a degree causing it -
ColdBootII wrote: "Though, it does boil down to weather..."
And Moem said "We can disagree on this, it's fine."

Actually a lot of people would say it was due to global warming.....
Surely warming can be measured in degrees? :lol:
Image

If your issue is solved, kindly indicate that by editing the first post in the topic, and adding [SOLVED] to the title. Thanks!

RollyShed
Level 4
Level 4
Posts: 359
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:58 pm
Location: South Island, New Zealand

Re: The Mint Café

Post by RollyShed »

Moem wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:29 pm
Surely warming can be measured in degrees? :lol:
My father used to say, "Go to the top of the class but don't take your books with you."

For those who might miss the point, meaning, "you won't be there long". However full marks Moem :D :D

Post Reply

Return to “Open chat”