So....Anyone Occupying anything?

Chat about just about anything else
Nick_Djinn
Level 5
Level 5
Posts: 635
Joined: Sat May 15, 2010 7:12 am

Re: So....Anyone Occupying anything?

Post by Nick_Djinn »

I think the comments above are really ridiculous and beyond hypocritical.

If we are for personal responsibility then why didnt we let the banks fail? If we were going to spend 16 trillion anyway, dwarfing even Petagon spending, then why not bail out the people in debt which in turn would bail out the banksters? What happened is that we did nothing to help the individuals in debt but we DID help the bankers in debt, bypassing the people who need help but making those same people who got screwed responsible for paying back those debts in TAXES?

What kind of conservative are you that would be ok with taxation being used to prop up failed business? If you were a real capitalist, shouldnt we have let them fail? Economic darwinism? You think the government should be socialist but only for the super rich?

If I was a Republican I would be out protesting too, but for different reasons.
nukm

Re: So....Anyone Occupying anything?

Post by nukm »

Kevin108 wrote:I have 15 seeds occupying the linuxmint-12-gnome-dvd-32bit.iso torrent.
:lol: good onya!
User avatar
Midnighter
Level 6
Level 6
Posts: 1326
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 1:52 pm
Location: Western Australia

Re: So....Anyone Occupying anything?

Post by Midnighter »

Nick_Djinn wrote:I think the comments above are really ridiculous and beyond hypocritical.

If we are for personal responsibility then why didnt we let the banks fail? If we were going to spend 16 trillion anyway, dwarfing even Petagon spending, then why not bail out the people in debt which in turn would bail out the banksters? What happened is that we did nothing to help the individuals in debt but we DID help the bankers in debt, bypassing the people who need help but making those same people who got screwed responsible for paying back those debts in TAXES?

What kind of conservative are you that would be ok with taxation being used to prop up failed business? If you were a real capitalist, shouldnt we have let them fail? Economic darwinism? You think the government should be socialist but only for the super rich?

If I was a Republican I would be out protesting too, but for different reasons.

This post is excellent on so many levels, and highlights hypocrisy from so many. Well said.
If you accept - and I do - that freedom of speech is important, then you are going to have to defend the indefensible. That means you are going to be defending the right of people to read, or to write, or to say, what you don't say or like or want said.
rodvitner
Level 1
Level 1
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2009 5:33 am

Re: So....Anyone Occupying anything?

Post by rodvitner »

I am occupying a whole city in Sweden, Degerfors. Well, occupying is not the word. I, that means my party, the left wing party (former communist party) won the selection here last year. Now we are waiting for the rest of our country to begin to move. As the Lord Mayor (funny title for a working class guy as me) for the city, I am working for use of open suorce in the whole of our community. Linux Mint is my flavour. Sorry for bad English.
User avatar
minty33
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 93
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:17 am
Contact:

Re: So....Anyone Occupying anything?

Post by minty33 »

just playing devils advocate here but ppl have to take some blame and except some responsibility at least for their own over spending on housing when interest rates dropped and it became a sellers market initially (overspending during the sellers market cancelled out the value of low interest rates - unless you never planned on reselling) . i certainly agree that the institutional lenders knew what was going to happen and should not have lended the money to some ppl and that they did that is greed and they should not have been bailed out either. ppl need to realise this is the downside of capitalism and that their will always be fluxuation's in the market and our own materialism causes these downturns when we create bubbles that will always eventually burst. the old addage "if its too good to be true it probably is" sort of applies here because ppl know deep down that things couldn't stay the way they were during the stock market boom in the late 90's - early 2000's with the tech stocks as well as the housing market craze that followed not to mention these trends are as predictable as night and day. its the timing of the trends that are not known. my advice is learn from this ppl and when we hit a boom again don't try and live like rockstar's and take that opportunity to make and save money for the coming bust. anything government does to "fix" the situation is highly reactionary and will create future problems or set bad precedence (i.e the bail outs and stimulating the economy through excessive interest rate reduction). i mean what happens when interest rates return to the average not the all time low we are at now . i'll tell you what happens you still lose money or break even selling your house just for a different reason. this is because of corporate greed because as interest rates lower companies bank on ppl spending money they don't have making our situations as individuals even worse while we are blinded by the comfort of still having all our toys. big companies continue to get rich we go in debt and politicians get to say that we are coming out of the recession because consumer spending is picking up and its all an illusion. bottom line show some restraint ppl make sacrifices because no one will fix this for us. don't spend. let the fat of these companies get trimmed by lack of consumer spending don't borrow money and don't worry as companies go under because of it. they don't worry about us going bankrupt. i realise the stock market loses temporarily in my scenario but that's what needs to happen right now we are treading water anyway because of artificial economic stimulation and bail outs. let survival of the fittest apply to big business not just us.

i wrote this quickly i hope it makes sense,
and before anyone says i'm right wing or something read my other posts. i'm just pointing out that there is enough blame to go around and we need to take some of it. these companies know our weakness and lack of restraint but like it or not they are in business to exploite that. in the words of the wu-tang clan "protect ya neck"
We all pay for life with death so everything in between should be free. - Bill Hicks
User avatar
Kevin108
Level 4
Level 4
Posts: 312
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:07 am
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Contact:

Re: So....Anyone Occupying anything?

Post by Kevin108 »

The housing bubble was corrupt on many levels:

The federal government decides to fool with the free market by backing home loans and incentivizing home ownership.
People bought houses they knew they couldn't afford.
The banks sold people loans they knew they couldn't repay. Many of the loans were backed by the federal government.
The local government loved every minute of it. The more expensive a house is, (where applicable) the higher your personal property tax bill.
The local government inflated property values to raise tax rates.
Odds are after these people bought the house they couldn't afford, they qualified soon after for a home equity loan they could never repay.
Banks issued home equity loans that they knew could never be repaid.
These home equity loans put H2 Hummers and trailers with jet skis, boats and other toys in the driveways.
The local government loved every minute of it. The more expensive cars and toys are, (where applicable) the higher your personal property tax bill.
The state government loved every minute of it. Big toys carry big sales tax bills.
Then the bubble pops. Rahm Emanuel even told us, "You never want a serious crisis to go to waste."
The federal government loves every minute of it. Now they have an excuse to enact more regulation, inflate the currency and generally expand their power even more.


Leading into our continuing dilema:

Inflation has the real value of our money dwindling.
Cash for clunkers spends $8 for every $1 it will save.
The used car market and parts recyclers suffer as much of their business is sent to foreign automakers.
New regulations and the cost of staying in compliance add massive amounts of overhead to virtually every business.
The new healthcare laws have led to business uncertainty.
That uncertainty that keeps companies from expanding, even if they need to.
The federal government continuously extends unemployment benefits.
People make more staying on the dole than they can in the current economic climate, so they don't return to work.
The federal government is spending at record and rates and borrowing 40¢ of every dollar they spend.
The federal reserve can't account for billions of OUR TAX DOLLARS it's handed out.
Now the current administrations wants to hang all of these missteps on those who've actually been responsible and successful.
Now the Occupy movement wants the same government that started this mess to do something about it.
Nick_Djinn
Level 5
Level 5
Posts: 635
Joined: Sat May 15, 2010 7:12 am

Re: So....Anyone Occupying anything?

Post by Nick_Djinn »

Are we to believe that 'the people' suddenly started to behave totally different on a mass scale, and rainbows ed it up themselves, or is it more likely that the super-powers who control the fed and interest rates and the bankers got greedy and tried to manipulate the system for their own gain to our detriment? I think the former is far fetched and the later is probable.
User avatar
Kevin108
Level 4
Level 4
Posts: 312
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:07 am
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Contact:

Re: So....Anyone Occupying anything?

Post by Kevin108 »

Nick_Djinn wrote:Are we to believe that 'the people' suddenly started to behave totally different on a mass scale, and rainbows ed it up themselves, or is it more likely that the super-powers who control the fed and interest rates and the bankers got greedy and tried to manipulate the system for their own gain to our detriment? I think the former is far fetched and the later is probable.
I was shopping for a house during this same period. When I was told what I qualified for and how useful an interest-only loan one be, I thought, "You're out of your mind! Kicking the 'OH SHIT, where am I going to get this money?' can down the road 5 years isn't going to help."

People could only buy what was for sale. The loans that were available were only made so because of government "guarantees."

People, government, businesses - it doesn't matter. Lots of all of them thought they'd figured out how to get something for nothing.

Those of us who work regularly, make good decisions and live within our means are the ones paying for the extravagance and radical behavior of all of them.

It makes me furious.
User avatar
minty33
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 93
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:17 am
Contact:

Re: So....Anyone Occupying anything?

Post by minty33 »

kevin108 i think your on the same page as me. i said in my post that it was corporate and government greed as well as ppl spending ridiculously. to clarify on you pointing out governments taxes is why they loved it. it goes beyond that they get to take credit for the market when its good for election and bad for bashing oponents and these market trends are in motion well before they appear obvious so the credit and blame is often misplaced. its a joke. even now bail outs, backings and keeping interest low is done so it doesn't look like they're fixing it and cite an artificial recovery trend because ppl still done learn. just because interest is low doesn't mean use it for non-necessities if your not well off already.
We all pay for life with death so everything in between should be free. - Bill Hicks
Nick_Djinn
Level 5
Level 5
Posts: 635
Joined: Sat May 15, 2010 7:12 am

Re: So....Anyone Occupying anything?

Post by Nick_Djinn »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCX8RBGZSTg (This is an amusing video, though I largely agree with it)

People exaggerate the significance of the housing market. It wasnt just housing, it was the stock market.....Money speculators, like George Sorros and Freedom House are responsible for this. It wasnt just people defaulting on their loans, "bad assets", the bankers were pulling a pyramid scam where they created money from nowhere by causing inflation. The fed and bankers created money by lending to EACH OTHER then counting the interest as economic "growth". Its a pyramid scam because somebody eventually has to eat the difference, and it ended up being the American tax payer who got all the responsibility of that scandal, but none of the benefit. The housing market was just another aspect of the domino effect. It was a bubble created by bankers and the fed and money speculators. All of this goes back to Wall st. If the markets had not been manipulated, chances are most people WOULD have kept their homes if the prices had not been artificially inflated along with our entire economy.

We could have spent the exact same amount of money by bailing the individuals out as we spent bailing out the banks, and by bailing them out we would have saved the banks and the economy in the process.....Some people oppose being made responsible for other peoples stupidity, and I am one of them. I cant afford to buy, so why should my taxes go to bailing out people who can afford to live in homes when I cant myself?.....Still, why this double standard towards the banks? Why are we bailing THEM out, and ONLY them, bypassing everyone else?

What we have in this country is corporate welfare without social responsibility. Personally, I would rather give free money to heroin addicts than giving another penny to a banker. The bankers are the ones who destroyed our economy, not the home owners.

I dont believe that most home owners thought they were getting "something for nothing". I think that they honestly were able to afford the interest rates when the economy was healthy and when interest rates were low, but when the economy tanked AND interest rates skyrocketed, of course they couldnt pay it back. Its the bankers who wrote the loans who are the professionals who should be able to anticipate that, not the home buyers who are largely naive to how predatory lending works. There are exceptions but I think the blame is 95% bankers, not even close to being equal.

And while I dont really feel like being taxed to help people own homes when I dont own a home myself, not when there are children starving and homeless who could use the benefit of social programs (regardless of whether its allegedly the parents fault or not), I would RATHER have helped the home owners directly compared to what we did which was bail out only the bankers but in a way that still bankrupts us only where it does not improve the lives of average Americans in any way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCX8RBGZSTg
User avatar
minty33
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 93
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:17 am
Contact:

Re: So....Anyone Occupying anything?

Post by minty33 »

nick couple things i did not just talk about housing the stock market also bubbled with the tech stocks and ppl were just as irresponsible with their profits then. i certainly never condoned bail outs for corporations and banks therefore i'm not really in favor of individual bail out either as all bail outs set a bad precedent. you are right about creating money out of no where and inflation. keep in mind though that the inflation is also effected by the reduced interest rates i talked about and that inflation counteracts the interest rate being low that's why i said its smoke and mirrors that the politicians use to get elected. i think your undervaluing the housing market though although that may be a product of where you live but in the north-east it is crippling. remember that traditionally rich ppl invest more in real estate when stocks are down as the trends of stocks and real estate tend not to mirror each other(in an opposite sense) but the fact both are bad simultaneously is the problem and you can't undervalue the effect of either of them. also as for you saying ppl could afford the real estate your right but that shows you don't get the problem. the problem is they paid too much yes they could afford the mortgage in most cases but ppl tend to move more often these days and 1-3 years after they bought these houses at inflated prices because of a sellers market induced by low interest and a bad stock market they couldn't resell without a loss so if you needed to move for work for example you were forced to take loss or carry two mortgages till your property sold in what is now a buyers market. not to mention its stupid for the ppl to have refinanced in the first couple of years of their new mortgage. its not always beneficial because you pay all interest on the front end of a mortgage and if you refinance 3 yrs in for example you have paid no principle of the loan and although interest may be lower you need to factor in the three years of just interest you paid before refinancing. ppl need to understand that it's not always better to refinance at a lower rate mostly if its not much lower and its only cpl years into the loan. this is again where banks are unethical. they know if your getting screwed refinancing but it looks like a new loan for them meanwhile they banked x years of interest before you start all over again with a new front loaded interest loan.
to sum up i never said the home-owners ruined the economy just that they need to accept their part and i definitely blamed banks and big business. i think you need to re-read what i said without any preconceived notions because i made a point to point this out in my earlier posts. ppl were taken advantage of yes but it was their greed and desire for material things that allowed that to happen as well. don't ignore that. my overall point is greed is the problem from the banks right down to the individual.
good conversation though. we are almost on the same page it's just i think you won't give any blame to ppl and you think i;m only blaming them and that's not the case
Last edited by minty33 on Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
We all pay for life with death so everything in between should be free. - Bill Hicks
Nick_Djinn
Level 5
Level 5
Posts: 635
Joined: Sat May 15, 2010 7:12 am

Re: So....Anyone Occupying anything?

Post by Nick_Djinn »

I know that housing is huge, but it was something that crashed AFTER the bubble burst. I object to painting a picture where it was a "mixture" of personal irresponsibility and corporate greed that created the problem, because while technically speaking there is certainly both, framing it that way undermines the depth of the corruption and how utterly sinister and deliberate this scam was on the corporate/fed/bankers side. You cannot really compare the guilt of the speculators and bankers to the guilt of people who realized they couldnt afford their loans. Its not even close to being in the same category. People making bad investments is really just a tiny footnote compared to the larger situation that engulfed them which was completely beyond their control, in that money markets were deliberately manipulated and exploited, and something like 16 TRILLION dollars with a T has been given out in bailouts to the super rich mega-corporations as they cut education and health services and basic social services.

People engage in violent civil war for less. Europe may in fact see bloodshed because of this. Longshoreman related unions are presently smashing property and holding people hostage at the ports its getting so bad.

To paint it as an economic situation that happened by accident a a combination of foolish buying habits combined with a bit of corporate greed severely undervalues and underestimates the level of control those in power have, how much of this was orchestrated, and the magnitude of what was given to them at our expense as 1 in 20 children are homeless and more dont have enough to eat, and we are cutting social welfare to children when they are going hungry just after we gave more in bailouts than we own as our GDP.

The American Revolution was waged for far less than what we have just witnessed.
User avatar
minty33
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 93
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:17 am
Contact:

Re: So....Anyone Occupying anything?

Post by minty33 »

% of "well put nick but i really wasn't making it the ppl's fault. i agree it was sinister what the powers that be do and did. But when you say things like "orchestrated" it also taints the view a little. these guys didn't all collaborate in a room to do this. it is simply the evil side of capitalism. what i mean is they try wrongly i may add to make as much money as possible and figure it's ppl's job to know better.. my main point is for ppl to realise this so these tactics don't continue to work. we were the pawns to make it all work if we become more aware and less materialistic ourselves then we will no longer be their pawns. you know what i mean. in other words it's certainly evil to take advantage of ppl which is what happened but you can't really expect business not to take full advantage. right or wrong that is being idealistic and unrealistic to expect them to look out for us. saying that doesn't put me on their side it's just fact. so given the fact lets educate ourselves and beat them at their own game because we will never uncorrupt the wealthy. by the way i'm not just talking about the markets either i mean we need to stop electing lawyers and the "elite" because there is no such thing as a democrat politician just a politician who fools ppl into thinking they support the little guy at least republicans are more open about their platform. i also can't just give ppl a pass. they are not active enough these day's and became complacent because of materialism we got used to. most ppl don't even know how our government works in the least. before i debate anything political as far as the economy goes with someone i always ask if they know who is responsible for spending in the fed gov and if they say pres which is 99% of the time i know they have no business even arguing their point. also this is off but we elect too many lawyer we are suppose to have separate branches of gov for checks and balances but electing nothing but lawers counteracts this because as far as i'm concerned they still have too many ties and connections to the judicial branch to be objective in the other branches. i'd like to elaborate that point but i'm too tired to rant on these issues now. also off topic but one of the funniest things ever was a long time ago the simpsons had an episode where 2 aliens became presidential candidates and they both would take over and upon being discovered they just laughed and said "what are you going to do it's a 2 party system you have to elect one of us" . south park had a similar one where stan wouldn't vote for a giant douche or a turd sandwich. it shows how unwilling ppl are to rock the boat. occupy is good at least ppl are coming around but i also believe it's not enough because how much pressure is really on the politicians as a whole. after all we have to vote for one of them it's a 2 party system right.
We all pay for life with death so everything in between should be free. - Bill Hicks
Dry Lips
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 74
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2011 11:22 am

Re: So....Anyone Occupying anything?

Post by Dry Lips »

User avatar
Gerd50
Level 5
Level 5
Posts: 734
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:42 pm
Location: Fishtown, Germany

Re: So....Anyone Occupying anything?

Post by Gerd50 »

A german commedian said it like this:

Why the hell alcoholics, junkies don't have a platform on each tv news but stock market junkies have?
Why not all addicted ones are called ill?
I believe in everything, except humans.

LM9, Debian Testing Xfce, Debian Sid Xfce - CPU/Amd64 2,6Ghz, Graphics/Nvidia 9600 GT, Sound/SB Audigy4 emu10K1
SurfaceUnits
Level 3
Level 3
Posts: 165
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:08 pm

Re: So....Anyone Occupying anything?

Post by SurfaceUnits »

I occupied my bathroom and conducted a sit in on my toilet this morning. does that count? It was productive.

Wash DC and Wall Street et al are corrupted beyond repair. Only a total decimation of both is left.
That is why I channel their destruction in my daily meditation.
"Bite the wax tadpole"
nukm

Re: So....Anyone Occupying anything?

Post by nukm »

A "total decimation" would get you 100% of 10% of the 1 %. :lol:
Nick_Djinn
Level 5
Level 5
Posts: 635
Joined: Sat May 15, 2010 7:12 am

Re: So....Anyone Occupying anything?

Post by Nick_Djinn »

Yeah, I sometimes wonder if there is any hope short of revolution......at least in Europe it would appear that they are WILLING to revolt. In the USA people regard it as unthinkable. They are brainwashed into thinking it would be hopeless.......News flash, the USA is not really any better fortified than Europe for internal conflict. In some ways less so. Our military is still preparing for the cold war that never happened, or for a possible standoff with China.
User avatar
tomast
Level 3
Level 3
Posts: 146
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 3:02 pm

Re: So....Anyone Occupying anything?

Post by tomast »

They pepper spray and beat peaceful protesters while at the same time criticising other nations for
human rights violations.... Has anyone heard of the Law Congress passed NDAA ?

NDAA , SOPA , Patriot Act , TSA , Guantanamo Bay , etc... etc... etc...

The only two nations that have it on paper as Law to indefinitely detain its own citizens without charge or trial;
USA and NORTH KOREA

WOW ! Just WOW !
User avatar
minty33
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 93
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:17 am
Contact:

Re: So....Anyone Occupying anything?

Post by minty33 »

ok nick now i totally agree with this statement you made --->
"Yeah, I sometimes wonder if there is any hope short of revolution......at least in Europe it would appear that they are WILLING to revolt. In the USA people regard it as unthinkable. They are brainwashed into thinking it would be hopeless.......News flash, the USA is not really any better fortified than Europe for internal conflict. In some ways less so. Our military is still preparing for the cold war that never happened, or for a possible standoff with China."


and tomast you are right on to, these are the issues that truly bother me about this country. ppl are brainwashed not so much to believe its hopeless but to believe we have more freedom and rights than we do. and we lose more everyday which is why i agree with nick this time. short of revolution i can't see what will stop the path we've gone down of giving our freedoms away. i mean both parties are doing it to us and despite what they would have us believe it is only a two party system right now. its funny because ppl don't get the contradiction of the terms liberal and conservative when it comes to politics. for example in the 80's it was leiberman and tipper gore who wanted to censor all metal music yet they are democrats and they were trying to take our freedom of speach away even then. that doesn't sound very liberal to me. it just shows you that politicians are all the same and when they pick a cause its to get elected and to hell with our rights and the constitution. this isn't pro republican i am just using the dems as an example. it makes idiots feel good to say they are liberal because they know the actual definition not its political meaning. in politics liberals want the government to control everything and they use social programs to do this and to gain this power and control ( i am talking about leer jet liberal politicians who call themselves liberals not the everyday person calling themselves liberals since i don't think most of them fully get what it is they are associating themselves with and have good intentions). it's noble for us to want to help ppl (and we have to) but the politicians prey on the fact most of us feel that way. i probably didn't explain this point well and most likely will have to clarify when ppl blast me as they misunderstand what i'm trying to say but i gotta run and can't expound on it now.
Last edited by minty33 on Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
We all pay for life with death so everything in between should be free. - Bill Hicks
Locked

Return to “Open chat”