Need to get this off my chest..

Questions about the project and the distribution - obviously no support questions here please
Hoot_Fluegelhorn
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Need to get this off my chest..

Postby Hoot_Fluegelhorn » Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:02 pm

Hi Guys,

I ritually burned windows in utter frustration back in 2002. Windows had stopped being an operating system one could do work with.
Switched to Linux (Slackware) with KDE as GUI.
Year or two later, bought an Apple for desktop use, and never looked back.

Job changed couple of times, the only linux box I run today is a MINT machine at home. And I'm not a happy camper.

- Somewhere someone decided that naming conventions regarding network interfaces needed changing. No more eth0, but something totally unpredictable (or better, predictable based on what slot/port the I/F lives in. But I'm lost.) Fine for server environments, but insane for a desktop box.

It gets worse. There is no decent network management app in Mint. There are two network related crappy tools in preferences, but nothing that remotely looks like, and is as functional as the network preferences you find in MacOS. This is just one example. Remote desktop another, and I can go on and on..

And this is the thing. Pretty much every GUI on Linux is an attempt to be better than Windows.
But.where.is.the.challenge.in.that.
KDE had that down pat 15 years ago.

But after >15 years the community has not been able to make any linux based GUI any better than an Apple, and it seems to lack the ambition to.
Probably mostly because MacOS is unknown to most developers to begin with.

Like your gold standard is a Ford Edsel, and you're doing your best to top that.
But all you get is a Fort Tempo. And while it was a lot better than the Edsel, it too was a crappy car in 1990, and still is, just because you never drove a Mercedes.

And for all the brilliant effort equally brilliant developers have put into Linux, this is a very sad result.

I have no such complaint on the server-end of Linux. It's the GUI that has a 20 year backlog.

So.. I'm not trolling.. not trying to start a flaming war on 'the best OS' (because that was Tandem Computer's "Guardian" :) ) just wondering what the ambition is toward mustering the development community to build the best fikking GUI there is. Mint isn't, KDE, Gnome neither. Is this how we want it?

Take care,
Hoot



So

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richyrich
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Re: Need to get this off my chest..

Postby richyrich » Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:14 pm

Sooo . . that's YOUR opinion. What do you want for free ?
How much money has Apple put into their GUI ? How many full time developers do they employ ?

Get off your duff and start coding if you want your Linux to run and look like your Mac . .

signed,
A happy Xfce user for many years, Xfce hasn't changed much since then, & I like it like that.

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Re: Need to get this off my chest..

Postby Habitual » Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:23 pm

I made the most progress when I quit comparing every Linux thing to "the way Windows does it".
Free Software is Volunteer-driven, mostly. Get Involved. Make a Difference.

Desktops - There's probably around a dozen or so, maybe more.
You seem to be stuck on a couple.

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Re: Need to get this off my chest..

Postby ColdBoot » Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:55 pm

So, if it says "Wired" instead of "eth0" you're "lost" after 20 years of "experienced" use? You don't say it's the biggest weight on your chest, you poor thing... :lol:

Ehehe, :mrgreen: so many trolls strolling Linux forums in FEAR :twisted: these days, remarkable... Must be their crappy MacOS is loosing market share as well, being what it is - crappy.
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hinto
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Re: Need to get this off my chest..

Postby hinto » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:33 pm

I happen to like the network manager in KDE.
Not only does it pretty much auto configure stuff for me, but the VPN plugins with click on/off is really convenient.
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Re: Need to get this off my chest..

Postby Arch_Enemy » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:14 pm

I don't think the Apple desktop is that great, IMHO. In fact, until you get used to it it can be downright confusing.

Here's what I do: I take an "experimental" hard drive, and fudge the daylights out of it. If I break it, no big deal.

Now, I liked the Windows '95/2000 desktop quite a bit, it was logical and made more sense than anything before or since (er, maybe except GEOWorks, that is...) so I bend over backwards to make it like that...sort of...

I broke many a system trying to get Gnome2 to work on "modern" linux distros until Mate came out. Then I modified Mate to become what I like.

I don't see any reason why the OP can't make one desktop version or another work like the Apple desktop. I did it a few years ago...but I can't remember what I used for a base. Problem is, once I got it set up and working...I didn't like it.

I did manage to get Gnome2 working on a couple distros...then an update would brick the system :D Stop doing updates...:D

If you want to put the effort into it, you can make the desktop work any way you like. And I'm not a programmer, but I google my way around the interweb until I get the info I need. Like they said...The Truth Is Out There.
$0.02+a grain of salt...

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Re: Need to get this off my chest..

Postby CaptainKirksChair » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:54 pm

I have an iMac and I've installed Mint 18.1 Cinnamon. No problems. It even looks like OSX. Why? Because it's Mint and because I can!

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Re: Need to get this off my chest..

Postby coffee412 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:56 pm

I have never considered apple to have a 'great' operating system. I dont care for the layout and the stupid way it handles things like the sidebars, The mail program has issues and the GUIs are not very intuitive at all.

The day Mint decides to look like apple then I am out of here. In fact, The day Ubuntu decided unity should be the default desktop and gnome decided to rape the desktop and leave it blank I moved right over to Mint.

Linux is not windows and its not apple. Linux is linux and I am very glad it is.
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Re: Need to get this off my chest..

Postby jimallyn » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:59 pm

Different strokes for different folks, as they say. I mostly use Cinnamon, but have tried the others, too. Doesn't make much difference to me, they are all capable of getting the job done. I have had the misfortune to have to work with Macs a few times, Didn't care for it much.
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Re: Need to get this off my chest..

Postby ColdBoot » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:31 am

Just checked, and according to this source, Linux desktop adoption must be seriously distressing for the fellows over at Apple's marketing(m$'s as well). I bet, when they see this, they must be prone to think that it's high time to "release the trolls" :lol: ( to paraphrase Mr. Burns of The Simpsons):

https://www.netmarketshare.com/operatin ... e=Y&qpct=2
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Re: Need to get this off my chest..

Postby CaptainKirksChair » Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:49 pm

Linux desktop adoption must be seriously distressing for the fellows over at Apple...

The problem that Apple faces is that their boutique-ware systems are just too expensive. Which is why you see these numbers.
8.41 - Windows XP
6.82 - Windows 8.1
6.25 - All Mac
2.16 - All Linux

The percentage for Linux is to be expected. Not dismissed, because it does continue to grow. The fact is, Linux is a third of Apple's entire market share. But the scary thing for Apple is that all of their systems combined are two full percentage points behind Windows XP alone. XP was released in October 2001. OSX 10.4 was released in April 2005. OSX 10.12 was released in September 2016. 10 years worth of macOS improvements can't compete with an old, dwindling, and no longer supported Windows operating system. Apple can spin this any way they like but they are being squeezed from both sides. Eventually the Windows XP and 8.1 numbers will fall. But those are non-Mac Intel systems. Some of those folks will want to keep that hardware because they just can't afford new hardware. So they will turn to Linux because they can't install macOS. Others will "upgrade" to Windows 7 or maybe even Windows 10, but probably with new hardware. This will mean a loss for Apple. If Apple's total numbers fall into the 5 range, you can bet the Linux numbers will climb to about 2.5 or more.

I understand Apple has to make money. But that old business model of "we're the best and we're worth the money" just isn't going to cut it any longer.

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Re: Need to get this off my chest..

Postby Rocky Bennett » Sat Apr 22, 2017 5:29 am

The OP has some valid points. For me, the only things that I don't like about Mac OS is the way it looks and the way it acts.


Oh yeah, and the price.


Oh yeah, and the ethics of the company.

Other than that Mac OS is swell.

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Re: Need to get this off my chest..

Postby Pjotr » Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:22 am

What's not to like about desktop Linux?

It's (cost)free, it's very secure, it runs as stable as a ship's diesel engine, it's extremely customizable and tweakable, it's fit for both powerful new hardware and very weak old hardware.

In short: it's fun! :mrgreen:

Sidenote: ten years ago, those netmarketshare stats showed desktop Linux consistently below the 1 % mark.... Since then, desktop Linux usage has more than doubled. I think the demise of Windows XP was the watershed.
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Re: Need to get this off my chest..

Postby CaptainKirksChair » Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:44 pm

Rocky Bennett, as I write this I am on an older iMac 9.1 running Mint 18.1 Cinnamon.

Code: Select all

System:    Host: iMac Kernel: 4.4.0-53-generic x86_64 (64 bit gcc: 5.4.0)
           Desktop: Cinnamon 3.2.7 (Gtk 3.18.9-1ubuntu3.2) Distro: Linux Mint 18.1 Serena
Machine:   System: Apple product: iMac9 1 v: 1.0
           Mobo: Apple model: Mac-F2218EA9 Bios: Apple v: IM91.88Z.008D.B08.0904271717 date: 04/27/09
CPU:       Dual core Intel Core2 Duo E8135 (-MCP-) cache: 6144 KB
           flags: (lm nx sse sse2 sse3 sse4_1 ssse3 vmx) bmips: 10612
           clock speeds: max: 2660 MHz 1: 1862 MHz 2: 1596 MHz
Graphics:  Card: NVIDIA C79 [GeForce 9400] bus-ID: 03:00.0
           Display Server: X.Org 1.18.4 drivers: nouveau (unloaded: fbdev,vesa) Resolution: 1680x1050@60.00hz
           GLX Renderer: Gallium 0.4 on NVAC GLX Version: 3.0 Mesa 11.2.0 Direct Rendering: Yes
Audio:     Card NVIDIA MCP79 High Definition Audio driver: snd_hda_intel bus-ID: 00:08.0
           Sound: Advanced Linux Sound Architecture v: k4.4.0-53-generic
Network:   Card-1: NVIDIA MCP79 Ethernet driver: forcedeth port: 21e0 bus-ID: 00:0a.0
           IF: enp0s10 state: down mac: <filter>
           Card-2: Broadcom BCM4322 802.11a/b/g/n Wireless LAN Controller driver: wl bus-ID: 04:00.0
           IF: wlp4s0 state: up mac: <filter>
Drives:    HDD Total Size: 320.1GB (6.1% used) ID-1: /dev/sda model: WDC_WD3200AAJS size: 320.1GB
Partition: ID-1: / size: 34G used: 5.6G (18%) fs: ext4 dev: /dev/sda5
           ID-2: /boot size: 969M used: 60M (7%) fs: ext4 dev: /dev/sda2
           ID-3: /home size: 256G used: 9.8G (5%) fs: ext4 dev: /dev/sda6
           ID-4: swap-1 size: 3.15GB used: 0.00GB (0%) fs: swap dev: /dev/sda4
RAID:      No RAID devices: /proc/mdstat, md_mod kernel module present
Sensors:   System Temperatures: cpu: 43.0C mobo: N/A gpu: 70.0
           Fan Speeds (in rpm): cpu: 1199
Info:      Processes: 193 Uptime: 4:04 Memory: 1083.3/7728.3MB Init: systemd runlevel: 5 Gcc sys: 5.4.0
           Client: Shell (bash 4.3.461) inxi: 2.2.35

Normally, the memory reads about 400/7700. Not too bad; macOS doesn't come close.

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Re: Need to get this off my chest..

Postby Rocky Bennett » Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:11 am

CaptainKirksChair wrote:Rocky Bennett, as I write this I am on an older iMac 9.1 running Mint 18.1 Cinnamon.

Code: Select all

System:    Host: iMac Kernel: 4.4.0-53-generic x86_64 (64 bit gcc: 5.4.0)
           Desktop: Cinnamon 3.2.7 (Gtk 3.18.9-1ubuntu3.2) Distro: Linux Mint 18.1 Serena
Machine:   System: Apple product: iMac9 1 v: 1.0
           Mobo: Apple model: Mac-F2218EA9 Bios: Apple v: IM91.88Z.008D.B08.0904271717 date: 04/27/09
CPU:       Dual core Intel Core2 Duo E8135 (-MCP-) cache: 6144 KB
           flags: (lm nx sse sse2 sse3 sse4_1 ssse3 vmx) bmips: 10612
           clock speeds: max: 2660 MHz 1: 1862 MHz 2: 1596 MHz
Graphics:  Card: NVIDIA C79 [GeForce 9400] bus-ID: 03:00.0
           Display Server: X.Org 1.18.4 drivers: nouveau (unloaded: fbdev,vesa) Resolution: 1680x1050@60.00hz
           GLX Renderer: Gallium 0.4 on NVAC GLX Version: 3.0 Mesa 11.2.0 Direct Rendering: Yes
Audio:     Card NVIDIA MCP79 High Definition Audio driver: snd_hda_intel bus-ID: 00:08.0
           Sound: Advanced Linux Sound Architecture v: k4.4.0-53-generic
Network:   Card-1: NVIDIA MCP79 Ethernet driver: forcedeth port: 21e0 bus-ID: 00:0a.0
           IF: enp0s10 state: down mac: <filter>
           Card-2: Broadcom BCM4322 802.11a/b/g/n Wireless LAN Controller driver: wl bus-ID: 04:00.0
           IF: wlp4s0 state: up mac: <filter>
Drives:    HDD Total Size: 320.1GB (6.1% used) ID-1: /dev/sda model: WDC_WD3200AAJS size: 320.1GB
Partition: ID-1: / size: 34G used: 5.6G (18%) fs: ext4 dev: /dev/sda5
           ID-2: /boot size: 969M used: 60M (7%) fs: ext4 dev: /dev/sda2
           ID-3: /home size: 256G used: 9.8G (5%) fs: ext4 dev: /dev/sda6
           ID-4: swap-1 size: 3.15GB used: 0.00GB (0%) fs: swap dev: /dev/sda4
RAID:      No RAID devices: /proc/mdstat, md_mod kernel module present
Sensors:   System Temperatures: cpu: 43.0C mobo: N/A gpu: 70.0
           Fan Speeds (in rpm): cpu: 1199
Info:      Processes: 193 Uptime: 4:04 Memory: 1083.3/7728.3MB Init: systemd runlevel: 5 Gcc sys: 5.4.0
           Client: Shell (bash 4.3.461) inxi: 2.2.35

Normally, the memory reads about 400/7700. Not too bad; macOS doesn't come close.




BOOM, there you go!!!! LOL!!!

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Re: Need to get this off my chest..

Postby altair4 » Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:22 am

I think Ubuntu may have the answer:
"We've seen some very vocal members of the community who have opposed many of our ideas for the desktop and mobile space. Some very angry, loud and anti-social people, to be sure," Mr. Shuttleworth added. "They seem to be highly against the GNOME Shell and also quite recently the KDE Plasma Shell, when that discussion came up (for KDE to be the default for Ubuntu instead of GNOME). And we all know not everyone loved our Unity Shell. So, we thought, what about the BASH Shell?"

"We believe it gives the best balance of simplicity that so many of our users crave, while still giving power users all the power that Ubuntu has under the hood," Mr. Shuttleworth explained. "NDE was a natural progression really, especially when we noticed in our testing that a console shell worked on all form-factors. Whether it be a desktop, phone or tablet, the UI scaled easily and stayed amazingly consistent even before any tweaking."

There you go.
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