Running as Root is not a Sin

Questions about the project and the distribution - obviously no support questions here please
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administrollaattori
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Re: Running as Root is not a Sin

Post by administrollaattori » Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:50 pm

I have a suggestion: Person who has used linux for 20 years or more, is allowed to use root-account. Person who has used linux less than 20 years, is allowed to use normal-account.

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Cosmo.
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Re: Running as Root is not a Sin

Post by Cosmo. » Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:05 pm

mperkel wrote:Explain why it's dumb in the context of having good backups.
A backup is a backup. It is not designed for and it does not protect against system attacks. So 2 very different things. If an attacker successfully captures your system, it will following that act as the attacker's system, regardless if your backup is 1 hour or 1 minute old.
mperkel wrote:After all, my computer, my choice. What gives you the right to override my choice in a Linux world? Why doesn't my personal liberty give me the right to choose to be dumb? And have you considered that there might be cases where it is not dumb?
This cannot get considered; it is untrue.
Nobody limits your rights. You on the other side cannot limit the right of developers to do, what is common sense, but that is obviously what you are trying to do. If you "have a problem with that" you have always the right to take another system; nobody hinters you.
mperkel wrote:The real question is - who get's to decide? Isn't getting to make my own choices what Linux is about? If I wanted a nanny I could choose Windows or Apple or Android. The issue here is about freedom of choice, not whether or not people think it's dumb. I have the right to be dumb.
You have the freedom to take, what you want. You have also the freedom to alter the system for your needs. You do not have the freedom to command, what the devs - in agreement with the vast majority - have to throw overboard and to change, just because one person claims, that his freedom gets limited.

And: Nobody wants to limit the right to be dumb. But you do not have the right to demand stupidity as a principle of a distro.

As we are about it: The title of the thread is simply wrong. It implies, that Linux or Mint is a religion, but as everybody knows, it is a software. A software has nothing to do with sins, but it has much to do with proper usage, which in turn makes some understanding necessary. So: running as root is not a sin (until this point I agree), it is also not the contrary of a sin, it is a critical mistake. A case for nanny. :roll:

I have indeed the feeling, that this is for you an ideological question ("I am the master and so I have to be root"), but software designs are usually not founded by ideology, but by knowledge and experience. If you absolutely feel the need to get root for your sanity, do this with your 21 years of experience. But don't expect that you will find here developers, who create a private build against their own conviction.

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NChewie
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Re: Running as Root is not a Sin

Post by NChewie » Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:52 pm

@mperkel
I too was a system admin for many years. In that time I only ran with elevated privileges for specific tasks and to carry out specific changes to user files. I would not dream of running as root by default.

As both revian and Pjotr have elegantly explained why normal operation should not be run with elevated privileges (to you, in an earlier thread)
viewtopic.php?f=90&t=255741&p=1378719&h ... l#p1378719

I don't need to repeat it. I bow to the current and relevant experience of these users, who have an excellent track record on these forums.

But I will anyway, in case any noobies have picked up on this thread and did not see the other :)

The unix and linux systems are designed to avoid the continual use of root privileges precisely to protect users from accidental damage with typos and from deliberate malicious attacks.
It can be considered as almost like running the system in a sandbox: damage done by malware should be limited to local files and not system files.
This is the main reason that I do not have to run a virus scanner on linux.
IF you run everything as ROOT
THEN you have no protection against malware

Sure you may have got away with it up to now... but that is probably because hackers presume that there is no attack vector in that direction, because nobody would be daft enough to run with their system wide open. If enough people advertise that they run their systems as root, then the hackers will no doubt take note and create some nasty attacks, especially for you...
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geodude21
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Re: Running as Root is not a Sin

Post by geodude21 » Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:30 pm

lol,(newbie here) i started running Linix 2-1/2 years , always run as root, never a problem, never crashed any of the three computers i have linix ( 3 different distro'), and if i ever do i can reload the complete system in a very few minutes, but i will agree if you wish to run in either way its your choice.

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Re: Running as Root is not a Sin

Post by jimallyn » Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:36 pm

One of the nice things about Linux is that it gives you choices. That choice is also extended to developers who choose to make a distro that works well for all and doesn't risk a user with limited knowledge blowing the thing up. You also have choices:

1. Use Mint as is.
2. Modify Mint to suit your needs.
3. Use a different distro.

There you go. There's your choices.
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“If the government were coming for your TVs and cars, then you'd be upset. But, as it is, they're only coming for your sons.” - Daniel Berrigan

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Re: Running as Root is not a Sin

Post by majpooper » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:29 pm

I don't even understand this debate is even taking place - I have only a few years of linux experience and none as an Administrator or IT professional let alone a developer and I, if I was so inclined AND I am not, could easily modify Mint to auto-login and run as root. I think that is nuts to but it bluntly and as has been pointed out backups are not a substitute for security.

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Re: Running as Root is not a Sin

Post by thx-1138 » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:42 pm

And if that malware manages to get your credit card creds, having a backup won't help... unless it's a backup bank account with backup money.
Rotflmao :lol:
This made me think:
"What's new in Linux Mint 19.x...

Linux Mint 19 features Timeshift, a tool dedicated to making wallet snapshots.

Timeshift is the perfect companion to the Paypal Balance Backup Tool. It doesn't just save your hard-earned moonies, it also takes snapshots of all your bank account savings.

Thanks to Timeshift you can create backups of your credit card itself.

You spent money by mistake? You can recover them. You ran as root, got hacked and something isn't working well anymore? You can go back in time."

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Re: Running as Root is not a Sin

Post by mperkel » Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:12 am

It's the same old misconception people have about freedom of speech. You have the right to speak your mind, but I'm not obligated to listen to it and I don't have to put up with you saying whatever you like in my house. I can ask you to leave. In a similar vein, Linux DOES give you the choice, but it doesn't mean Mint has to give you the exact choice to do it your way- that depends on the vision of the distro. With Linux, you have the freedom to choose another distro or even roll your own if you feel Mint is not right for you.
But I'm not asking Mint to add a feature. I'm asking that it not go out of it's way to add code to block things from working.

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Re: Running as Root is not a Sin

Post by Moem » Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:18 am

You're still asking the Mint devs to change the way Mint works to suit you, against their own vision of how it should work. That's not going to reap any results.
If you enjoy shouting into the wind, by all means go ahead. :roll:
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Re: Running as Root is not a Sin

Post by Joe2Shoe » Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:52 am

What a waste of forum space. Let this poor Pilgrim run as root at his free will; watch his rig go up in flames. But, Pilgrim, don't come back here and cry at your mama's skirt-tails looking for hand-outs, 'cause as Benjamin Franklin said, "God helps those who help themselves".
The Mint devs allocate their time and brain power creating this OS so everyone can enjoy it. If you don't like it, create your own........or use another OS.
Good luck.
"Tolerance is the refuge of men without conviction."
"Common sense is not so common" - Voltaire

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