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Re: Not promoting proprietary software use in Linuxmint

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:39 pm
by thx-1138
...those threads are pretty funny actually in a certain sense - even more nowadays, since the various viewpoints have been discussed numerous times across the...ahem, Linux 'community'.

What's also rather interesting to note is just how much extra 'defensive' some of the supporters of the drm / closed-src apps can become nowadays: it's the 'others' that are 'sillier' and 'dump', while they themselves are so sure of themselves that they are somehow a priori the undisputable voice of logic & rationality(®)...

Still, why they get triggered in the first place since they are so smart, remains a mystery...
But i guess it's just a side-effect of some underlying zealot mentality i think: i-know-better & other people's ideas are dump...hey, i even tell them they're dump, so that any kind of constructive criticism & dialog stops dead at it's tracks.

It's my loose impression that even merely a decade ago, it was way more frequently the other way around: most likely it was certain fsf-supporters who were the ones preaching at every at chance that they hold they keys to the kingdom of truth(™)
I won't make any claims or assumptions however as to why those roles appear (to me at least) to have been reversed nowadays...
Will say though that a bit of self-reflection & and maybe a small inch of humour doesn't hurt (and neither disagreeing does either - it would be a boring & unproductive world otherwise...and a rather 'closed' one).

It's worth a note as well that the original poster, although he/she appears to be quite self-aware that he/she is fishing in muddy waters...hasn't replied back (yet?) - he just dropped the 'hook' and the rest of us (or at least some of us) are...triggered :lol:
I'd still be interested to hear what his/her thoughts are on the responses so far...
whm1974 wrote:I highly doubt that at this stage most Linux users are purists anyway. We have to use some proprietary software to do certain things, that is just the way it is(for now).
Most likely not even a 'minority' are purists, a fraction of it i'd think...

Re: Not promoting proprietary software use in Linuxmint

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:29 pm
by jglen490
Who knows what the percentage is ...

It probably doesn't matter, and in fact being a non-purist might be more in keeping with the tenets of freedom and choice that IS Linux.

But, we could all argue one way or another 'til the cows come home. So just enjoy your "free as in <whatever>" Linux and share the good stuff :)

Re: Not promoting proprietary software use in Linuxmint

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:36 pm
by thx-1138
jglen490 wrote:But, we could all argue one way or another 'til the cows come home. So just enjoy your "free as in <whatever>" Linux and share the good stuff :)
Ditto :-)

On another note...I'd just like to interject for a moment.
What you're refering to as cows, are in fact, gnus, or as I've recently taken to calling it, gnus plus Linux. Through a peculiar turn of events...
:D

Re: Not promoting proprietary software use in Linuxmint

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:49 pm
by Sir Charles
jglen490 wrote: So just enjoy your "free as in <whatever>" Linux and share the good stuff :)
++ :D

Re: Not promoting proprietary software use in Linuxmint

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:31 pm
by jglen490
thx-1138 wrote:
jglen490 wrote:But, we could all argue one way or another 'til the cows come home. So just enjoy your "free as in <whatever>" Linux and share the good stuff :)
Ditto :-)

On another note...I'd just like to interject for a moment.
What you're refering to as cows, are in fact, gnus, or as I've recently taken to calling it, gnus plus Linux. Through a peculiar turn of events...
:D
See, you stick around long enough and very soon you learn something gnu :lol:

Re: Not promoting proprietary software use in Linuxmint

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:52 pm
by Moem
jglen490 wrote:See, you stick around long enough and very soon you learn something gnu :lol:
*groan*
You just had to go there, didn't you. Well, at least it's not one I herd before. :lol:

Re: Not promoting proprietary software use in Linuxmint

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:10 pm
by thx-1138
...it still cranks me up when i see it in reddit posts in the usual 'semiotics' over nothing discussions :lol:

Re: Not promoting proprietary software use in Linuxmint

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:39 pm
by all41
Moem wrote:
jglen490 wrote:See, you stick around long enough and very soon you learn something gnu :lol:
*groan*
You just had to go there, didn't you. Well, at least it's not one I herd before. :lol:
Now that's funny :lol: --udder-ly hilarious

Re: Not promoting proprietary software use in Linuxmint

Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:37 am
by menthol
Y'all missed the point : I'm talking about screenshots of Firefox running Netflix embedded into the Linuxmint installer (18.2, have not checked .3), which has nothing to do with software manager.

About Adobe reader, that may be a well known software, but we have way better in standard repos, so why bother ?

As for help, install and use of nonfree software, I thought I made it clear that wasn't the point, and you all ran head first into it... I'll try to make my idea clearer :

Having them in repos : ok (alrite, that's LM, not GNU/Hurd).
Help on the forums : ok (coherence with previous point).
Tweaks in LM to help their use : ok (not impacting security ofc)
Promoting / advertising it : no.

Unless they are already big sponsor, then, when possible, try to change it for better sponsors (see, catweazl ? Not a hard cut : when possible). Besides, I don't see Adobe or Netflix there : https://linuxmint.com/sponsors.php, so is this really free advertising for them ?

What do you think about *that* ?


(@thx-1138 : good on you for having clearer thoughts about what's "realistic" or not, but you missed the point too, sorry :-) )

Edit, as I don't really wanna add some more offtopic, but you seem like an interesting folk :
I won't make any claims or assumptions however as to why those roles appear (to me at least) to have been reversed nowadays...
I think this is a multi factor issue. On the technical side, a few privacy leaks and surveillance scandals woke people (a bit). On the economical side, new models using free software proved viability. This may have shaken the traditional proprietary software package model. Paradoxically, it shows they are able to take criticism (ms making opensource...).

Re: Not promoting proprietary software use in Linuxmint

Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:45 am
by Sir Charles
menthol wrote:Y'all missed the point : I'm talking about screenshots of Firefox running Netflix embedded into the Linuxmint installer (18.2, have not checked .3)
This is what I have reacted to as well, quite perplexed-ly :o

Re: Not promoting proprietary software use in Linuxmint

Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 6:12 pm
by rene
menthol wrote:Y'all missed the point : I'm talking about screenshots of Firefox running Netflix embedded into the Linuxmint installer [ ... ]
You however in the original posting and title say this amounts to promoting Netflix and/or DRM generally (and Acrobat Reader) and I would say that the point you are fairly explicitly missing is that such is of course not the case: those screenshots are promoting Linux Mint, by showing widely requested software to be available on it.

Linux Mint is explicitly aimed at a subsection of existing and prospective Linux users who want a Just Works solution. In the technical sense but certainly also the political one: Mint even started out life as basically a bunch of proprietary codecs on top of Ubuntu. Since this is a non-given among Linux distributions Mint advertising its nature in this manner is quite proper: it is (certainly was pre-cinnamon) pretty much it's main characteristic. If you yourself do not agree that functionality is primary in this manner I believe most anyone would readily agree that you should feel free to not use Linux Mint. A vast majority of its users both existing and targeted do and the (Mint-) promotional screenshots you object to are as such quite to the point.

Re: Not promoting proprietary software use in Linuxmint

Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 6:46 pm
by catweazel
rene wrote:
menthol wrote:Y'all missed the point : I'm talking about screenshots of Firefox running Netflix embedded into the Linuxmint installer [ ... ]
You however in the original posting and title say this amounts to promoting Netflix and/or DRM generally (and Acrobat Reader) and I would say that the point you are fairly explicitly missing is that such is of course not the case: those screenshots are promoting Linux Mint, by showing widely requested software to be available on it.
+1

Re: Not promoting proprietary software use in Linuxmint

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:07 am
by thx-1138
menthol, i'll have a look on the installer next time, as last time i used it was more than 1.5 yrs ago, on 18.0, and to be honest, i probably paid way more close attention back then to properly verifying the data & correctly partitioning at the time...

Since you said that Netflix/DRM is mentioned in the installer etc...simple example:
there are numerous GPL-written apps & corresponding libs for connecting to DRM-based Android or iPhone smartphones...or nowadays, to the various 'cloud' all-your-base-are-belong-to-us services.
Surely someone could say that such, even with their mere existence, they endorse & promote those 'DRM-infested platforms' in the first place?

What a GPL-based software says, does, or does not in regards to such products / 'technologies', it's really of a secondary concern to me. It might offend my...aesthetics, or...'weltanschauung' (who cares!)...but it's still GPL, meaning it does not deprive me of my freedom to not only use, examine, modify but also...remove it: if i was to find it that a certain GPL app is somehow truly...offending & 'annoying', well, our good old friend apt-get purge is always right around the corner to take care of such...

The project's FAQ itself is extremely straight-forward, and states...
What about proprietary software?

Linux Mint does not support any political or ideological stance against any software programs or editors no matter what license they use. With that said, most if not all (depending on the edition) software used in Linux Mint is Free and Open Source. We believe in Open Source as a choice, not as a constraint. We think it makes sense to share code, to credit the technology we use, to let people help us, to allow others to build upon what we are making and to enable progress in general. We also enjoy sharing with the community, so we license our software under the GPL and the vast majority of components we use are Free and Open Source.
So, now...is the glass half-empty or is it half-full? I guess some people's eyes will first focus on the project's political or ideological stance, and in effect, on whether they agree with it or not, and to what extend.
Myself, i focus on the later part of the above paragraph / statement...which i find it covers me 110%, both practically & ideologically: so we license our software under the GPL.