why are distros never updated?

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leafymo1r92
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why are distros never updated?

Post by leafymo1r92 » Sun Nov 25, 2018 3:19 pm

it's kinda annoying getting the installation done then greeted with 100+ updates available
i would never expect that from buying a game from xbox live for example but why is this a thing with linux?

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Re: why are distros never updated?

Post by MrEen » Sun Nov 25, 2018 3:26 pm

Hi leafymo1r92, and welcome to the forum.

I would think one of the main reasons would be someone would have to be constantly repackaging the iso. How much did you pay for linux vs an xbox game?

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Re: why are distros never updated?

Post by kc1di » Sun Nov 25, 2018 3:38 pm

Hello leafymo1r92 Welcome to Linux Mint Forums,

each Distro differs in how they handle upgrades. Upgraded for security and by upstream developers are constantly being done. With Mint for example they do install .iso with each point release. The next one is due in December so your coming in at the end of the last point release so there will be many upgrades available for the software that was on the last .iso. Mint 19.1 when released will have fewer upgrades at first then more as it becomes more mature.

It would not be efficeint to make a new .iso every say week. some do it more often than others. Be glad you have a great operating system that upgrade your software for free.
Enjoy :)
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Re: why are distros never updated?

Post by Joe2Shoe » Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:14 pm

Windoze, MAC, Linux, etc. all cram as many updates onto an .iso as possible, but the space is limited. And, yet, YOU have to update all new updates AFTER that .iso was made.
It's the same with all OS's. It's simple, quick, and no problems (most of the time). Updating your OS is your responsibility. So, if you want to keep up-to-date and bug-free, update ASAP and immediately for the best results. I like my updates shaken, not stirred.
Note: I realize some people are too lazy to update, that's why I have no problem updating systems for those too afraid to push a key on the keyboard, then removing malware, etc. for $$$.
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Re: why are distros never updated?

Post by ajgreeny » Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:09 pm

I do not know if Mint has the equivalent of the http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ of the Ubuntu family of distros from which you can get a daily updated version of the .iso files for all of the different versions.

There are many more developers of Ubuntu than there are of Mint so it may not be economically feasible for Mint to do this, but it could be worth a search.

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Re: why are distros never updated?

Post by Pjotr » Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:15 pm

As if the makers of the major other operating systems do constantly update their official stable iso's.... They don't either. The daily iso's of Ubuntu don't really count: they're untested for stability (except for some automated tests).

And why on earth should they? What would justify the considerable efforts of the developers in constantly testing new stable iso's before releasing them? The mere fact that their end users need to update their OS after installing it? :shock:
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Re: why are distros never updated?

Post by zcot » Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:49 am

There really is a huge amount going on with it all.

As already mentioned, if you just happened to install after the release date it would be boring for updates, but right now it's well into the feature and bug fix fest. :D

a snippet about Ubuntu's 6 month development cycle, and though Mint doesn't carry the exact same pattern, a large amount of packages are coming from the Ubuntu repository which gives us updates:
Ubuntu’s development is very much dependent on the current stage of the release cycle. We release a new version of Ubuntu every six months, which is only possible because we have established strict freeze dates. With every freeze date that is reached developers are expected to make fewer, less intrusive changes. Feature Freeze is the first big freeze date after the first half of the cycle has passed. At this stage features must be largely implemented. The rest of the cycle is supposed to be focused on fixing bugs. After that the user interface, then the documentation, the kernel, etc. are frozen, then the beta release is put out which receives a lot of testing. From the beta release onwards, only critical bugs get fixed and a release candidate release is made and if it does not contain any serious problems, it becomes the final release.

Thousands of source packages, billions of lines of code, hundreds of contributors require a lot of communication and planning to maintain high standards of quality. At the beginning and in the middle of each release cycle we have the Ubuntu Developer Summit where developers and contributors come together to plan the features of the next releases. Every feature is discussed by its stakeholders and a specification is written that contains detailed information about its assumptions, implementation, the necessary changes in other places, how to test it and so on. This is all done in an open and transparent fashion, so you can participate remotely and listen to a videocast, chat with attendants and subscribe to changes of specifications, so you are always up to date.
So, a "release" is not something just thrown out there every day and without thorough testing. You'd end up with a bunch of Toshiba laptops getting bricked because the motherboard firmware got accidentally overwritten, or a simple grub update that ends up, oh, just simply totally preventing the installation on any UEFI system on the planet or something. In these cases then you're releasing a botched distro every day after that until you frantically work on a fix, and too, you're not on a scheduled goal path anymore.

Anyway, even if you just give a quick scan to the picture representations in these links you get something of an idea that there's millions of things involved:

https://www.ubuntu.com/about/release-cycle

http://packaging.ubuntu.com/html/introd ... pment.html (the actual detail: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopme ... aseProcess )

And with Mint, you have a similar thing happening, as well as with it being within the LTS lifetime of the Ubuntu releases.

You can check the Mint Roadmap here: https://github.com/linuxmint/Roadmap and check for various bugs, fixes, features and such for the whole Linux Mint section(105 repositories and between the cinnamon-spices-applets/desklets/extensions/themes there's way more... so, a lot!).

:D

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Re: why are distros never updated?

Post by leafymo1r92 » Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:53 am

MrEen wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 3:26 pm
Hi leafymo1r92, and welcome to the forum.

I would think one of the main reasons would be someone would have to be constantly repackaging the iso. How much did you pay for linux vs an xbox game?
makes sense but i wouldn't think it would be that difficult or time consuming

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Re: why are distros never updated?

Post by DAMIEN1307 » Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:28 am

hi leafy...could you educate us in the reason why you think that putting out a new ISO on an almost daily basis wouldnt be difficult or time consuming since all distros of linux tend to have almost daily security updates to not only the kernel but also the rest of their operating systems that keeps us users more secure than any windows or mac distribution?...linux distributions are not paid for by the end home users and we are the very happy end home users that no longer face the problems of windwoes or macintrash, blue screens of death, (BSOD, deleted user files after windows update/upgrade that have just recently happened this last month, not to even mention that windows media player is no longer working on many windows systems right now without a patch to fix them at the moment etc.)...the meager gains in money the developers get for their efforts just to provide a viable and secure OS that is better than we have ever had before linux distributions far outweighs them putting out a new OS, ISO, on an almost daily basis to just keep up with security updates as well as updates and improvements and debugging of other essentials that do not even involve the basic linux kernel...any time i install a linux derived system for someones computer, it only takes less than five minutes for almost 300 updates to download and update to the newly installed distro...i do not think that 5 extra minutes of updating and installing updates to the OS is a big deal for a free OS....could you please enlighten us about this not being difficult or time consuming for the developers and distributors to keep up with while also keeping the OSs up to date on security and improvements that they devote all their time too?...inquiring minds need to know this.
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Re: why are distros never updated?

Post by Hoser Rob » Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:50 am

leafymo1r92 wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:53 am
MrEen wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 3:26 pm
Hi leafymo1r92, and welcome to the forum.

I would think one of the main reasons would be someone would have to be constantly repackaging the iso. How much did you pay for linux vs an xbox game?
makes sense but i wouldn't think it would be that difficult or time consuming
Then you have a lot to learn.

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Re: why are distros never updated?

Post by Pierre » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:36 am

there is however, some Linux Distro's that do have a Monthly Snapshot Release:
- MX Snapshots is one of them
They consist of the base release with all the routine & security upgrades since release applied but with nothing else added.
& They are the preferred way of installing MX because some issues in the original release have been fixed already, and because it will take less time & bandwidth to update them.
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Re: why are distros never updated?

Post by rbeltz48 » Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:20 pm

Hi leafy, Welcome to the Linux world and the Mint forum. If you decide to stay with Linux as opposed to paying ongoing exorbitant amounts of $$ for Windoze or Mac, then get used to updates. It is part of the Linux distro world. Based on my past experience with Windoze from 1993-2016, you will spend at least 2-3 hrs. doing an upgrade from one release to another. And then you have interim updates which may or may not cause problems and frustration. I have found using Linux since 2003 that in general the upgrades and updates are much more reliable than Windoze. For example, a complete upgrade in Ubuntu takes about an hour and a fresh install about 20-25 minutes. Unheard of with Windoze.

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Re: why are distros never updated?

Post by ajgringo619 » Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:34 pm

Hoser Rob wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:50 am
leafymo1r92 wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:53 am
MrEen wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 3:26 pm
Hi leafymo1r92, and welcome to the forum.

I would think one of the main reasons would be someone would have to be constantly repackaging the iso. How much did you pay for linux vs an xbox game?
makes sense but i wouldn't think it would be that difficult or time consuming
Then you have a lot to learn.
+1

Some distros do offer network install ISOs that download the updates on the fly, but to me that's dangerous. If you don't have a known base OS, how can you possibly debug it if the updates don't work?
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Re: why are distros never updated?

Post by puddleglum » Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:05 pm

Which version of Mint did you install, by the way? I noticed that Mint 19 had a lot more updates than 18.3. I assume because the last point release will have less to fix than the first release. If 6 months between point releases is too long for you, you can try MX Linux like Pierre mentioned. It is Debian based and they do release monthly snapshots that includes the updates since release.

As for being a thing with Linux, that is somewhat short sighted. I had to upgrade a senior citizen's computer from Vista to Win 7 last year since Vista is no longer supported. I tried to get her to use Linux Mint but she couldn't get used to it. I started with service pack 1 since that was the latest iso image available (the one available on Microsoft's site anyways). It took us 3 hours to download and install years worth of updates and that is only the OS, not including the applications. I lost count on how many times I was forced to reboot before I could continue installing updates. I've never had to deal with that on any Linux distro I've tried. Yeah, it probably would have gone quicker to instal Win 10, but her hardware won't handle it. It will run Mint Cinnamon, though. I wish I could get her to use it.

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Re: why are distros never updated?

Post by gm10 » Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:04 pm

puddleglum wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:05 pm
I wish I could get her to use it.
In my experience your mistake was asking. Simply installing Mint (or another distribution) and saying that's how things look like, period, usually does the trick. YMMV ;)

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Re: why are distros never updated?

Post by leafymo1r92 » Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:30 am

DAMIEN1307 wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:28 am
hi leafy...could you educate us in the reason why you think that putting out a new ISO on an almost daily basis wouldnt be difficult or time consuming since all distros of linux tend to have almost daily security updates to not only the kernel but also the rest of their operating systems that keeps us users more secure than any windows or mac distribution?...linux distributions are not paid for by the end home users and we are the very happy end home users that no longer face the problems of windwoes or macintrash, blue screens of death, (BSOD, deleted user files after windows update/upgrade that have just recently happened this last month, not to even mention that windows media player is no longer working on many windows systems right now without a patch to fix them at the moment etc.)...the meager gains in money the developers get for their efforts just to provide a viable and secure OS that is better than we have ever had before linux distributions far outweighs them putting out a new OS, ISO, on an almost daily basis to just keep up with security updates as well as updates and improvements and debugging of other essentials that do not even involve the basic linux kernel...any time i install a linux derived system for someones computer, it only takes less than five minutes for almost 300 updates to download and update to the newly installed distro...i do not think that 5 extra minutes of updating and installing updates to the OS is a big deal for a free OS....could you please enlighten us about this not being difficult or time consuming for the developers and distributors to keep up with while also keeping the OSs up to date on security and improvements that they devote all their time too?...inquiring minds need to know this.
damn you guys get offended when linux is criticized. updating isos every few months just makes sense

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Re: why are distros never updated?

Post by leafymo1r92 » Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:45 am

Pjotr wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:15 pm
As if the makers of the major other operating systems do constantly update their official stable iso's.... They don't either. The daily iso's of Ubuntu don't really count: they're untested for stability (except for some automated tests).

And why on earth should they? What would justify the considerable efforts of the developers in constantly testing new stable iso's before releasing them? The mere fact that their end users need to update their OS after installing it? :shock:
idk making the installation easier? having developers do their jobs better?

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Re: why are distros never updated?

Post by gm10 » Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:51 am

leafymo1r92 wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:45 am
having developers do their jobs better?
LMFAO. Start employing some developers and then you can talk about them doing a job for you. Until then the most I want to hear from you is a thank you for giving you free software. Otherwise, there is the door --> :roll:

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Re: why are distros never updated?

Post by Pjotr » Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:44 am

leafymo1r92 wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:45 am
Pjotr wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:15 pm
As if the makers of the major other operating systems do constantly update their official stable iso's.... They don't either. The daily iso's of Ubuntu don't really count: they're untested for stability (except for some automated tests).

And why on earth should they? What would justify the considerable efforts of the developers in constantly testing new stable iso's before releasing them? The mere fact that their end users need to update their OS after installing it? :shock:
idk
Indeed you don't. Clearly you don't have the faintest clue what you're talking about.
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Re: why are distros never updated?

Post by MtnDewManiac » Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:49 pm

The only thing that... In ONE way, the OP's argument makes sense to me:

User wishes to install distro. User downloads gigabytes of data in order to do so. Then, user installs distro - and downloads more data, much of which presumably overwrites(?) a portion of the data es just previously downloaded.

That "wasted" data not worth counting? Multiply "user" by the number of people who use the distro - and do the same thing with every distro that follows the usual "here's your .ISO, we'll produce an updated one when we publish the next version" strategy, then add all those numbers together. It's probably significant at that point.

[Okay, there's also the portion of people who are on "metered" connections, where they pay for every byte of data they transfer. I do feel sorry for them if they end up having to pay anywhere from a few cents to a few bucks to download a new distro version PLUS its associated updates; but, as has been stated many times in both this thread, the forum in general, and the greater Internet... you're not being charged a fee by your distro's developer in order to possess/use/modify the product, so those people probably aren't going to get a great deal of sympathy when it comes to this thing. (People who pay a flat-rate for their data, but have lots of gigabytes of bandwith per month don't count here - it is not Clem's or any other distro developer's fault if you choose to prioritze binge-watching the latest mind-waster on Netflix over the basic (software) infrastructure of your computer :lol: .) ]

But, with that being stated... I agree with the general consensus that it's a lot of work for which the collective set of all distro developers, everywhere... will receive ZERO additional funds. And that's a show-stopper right there, lol.

You use an Ubuntu-derived distro, so you are probably familiar with at least the concept of PPAs. Pick one at random that has more than a few packages, contact its maintainer, and ask how much work is involved in maintaining it (if, in fact, the person does actually do so regularly, on a timely basis). Then multiply that time by the difference in the few to tens to (possibly) dozens of pieces of software in that PPA - and then find someone (who is patient ;) ) to explain to you the difference in scale involved in regards to maintaining a PPA so that the vast majority of its users can use the things it contains without at least major issues... versus trying to do the same thing with a distro (in other words, a complete functioning operating system) that is expected to be perfectly usable by every person who wants to do so, regardless of their specific combination of different brands/models/eras of hardware. And, after you've done that portion of your homework, lol, spend a half hour or so skimming through this forum looking for the "little issues" that (hopefully) a few people, each, are experiencing - and then combine all the collective grief those people are producing. And then imagine eating that.

Now ask yourself, "Would any sane individual EVER want to *multiply* that amount... for no additional benefit to them?"

Or go pick a distro that better suits your (perceived) needs. One assumes that the developer will accept you with open arms, as has Clem. Next time, try a rolling release distro :twisted: :P .

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