Few Comments from a Windows guy

Questions about the project and the distribution - obviously no support questions here please
jove04
Level 1
Level 1
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2010 12:28 pm

Few Comments from a Windows guy

Post by jove04 »

I have been using windows since the beginning. I used to be an expert of DOS before Windows. I program in C++ and other 6 languages and I do a lot of networking. All my experience about computers is related to windows/DOS only. For the last 15 years or so, I have tried to install and use Linux in its different forms. Red Hat, Slackware... You name it, I have tried them all. Every year or two, I run linux for about 15 days and then I erase the whole thing and go back to my Windows. I say to myself, "they are not there yet. Give them another year or two and they will destroy Windows".

Three months ago, my son gave me an UBUNTU CD and he asked me to install it and use it. I did that, but still I felt something was missing. So, I had to erase it all. My son is an Engineer. He had UBUNTU on his PC and Laptop for a long time now. Then he suggested I try Linux Mint. I did install Linux Mint 8. Suprise, suprise. finally I have found what I am after. The installation was a breeze. No complaints there. Now came the real test. I have to install my NVIDIA graphics card driver. I go to the NVIDIA site and I download the latest driver using Firefox. That file had a .run extension. I double click on it after the download but the system asked for an executable program to associate it with. Not only that, I had to read the forums to figure out how to install it. I needed to be a super user and install it in a terminal. That same day, I removed Linux Mint and went back to my windows. my comment was again, "they are not there yet. Give them another year or two and they will destroy Windows".

Yesterday, I installed UBUNTU 10.04. Again, installing my NVIDIA driver was time consuming. With this release, I had to be a super user, run the package in a DOS like windows using sh and I had to stop X Windows. Then reboot. Why all these? Can't the guys who designed this sophisticated operating system do a simple thing like allowing me to install a driver by just double clicking on the file? Today, early in the morning I have erased the whole thing and went back to my Windows.

I believe Linux Mint is going to be the standard on the desktop. I am waiting eagerly to try version 9. Here is my simple advice. When you do a GUI think about it this way. This is going to be a Linux without the use of Terminals and command lines. Everything will be done using the GUI. The terminal will be used only by Linux experts to do expert things. Think about giving me or other Windows users something that have a look and a feel of windows to start with. Don't make the look completely different from windows. Don't talk to me in cryptic sentences or words like /dev/sda or so.. Just talk to me in the language that I know which is c:\program files or so... or even use the size of the hard disk or the name of the volume. For me, dev/whatever is something strange. Let me learn it gradually and at a later stage. Don't ever face me with it.

Thank you all for your hard work
FedoraRefugee
Level 6
Level 6
Posts: 1274
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:25 am

Re: Few Comments from a Windows guy

Post by FedoraRefugee »

In other words you want a free Windows?

Yeah, there are many like you. Good luck. :D
User avatar
Aging Technogeek
Level 13
Level 13
Posts: 4578
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:54 am
Location: Right about here

Re: Few Comments from a Windows guy

Post by Aging Technogeek »

Are the choices offered in Hardware Drivers under Administration in the Menu too outdated for your Nvidia card? I have an Nvidia 8400 in my laptop. Granted it is a few years old, but the 185 driver from Hardware Drivers installs in less than 5 minutes with two or three mouse clicks and a reboot, and works like a charm.

I believe that, since the drivers themselves are downloaded when needed, that the Hardware Drivers app will offer the latest Nvidia driver in the repos for the card you have installed(which it detects automatically).

You will be required to input your password to install the driver, but that is the hardest part of the procedure. No terminal involved.
Registered Linux User 483387
kwisher
Level 5
Level 5
Posts: 780
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:54 pm
Location: Greentown, Indiana USA

Re: Few Comments from a Windows guy

Post by kwisher »

Obviously you did not do enough research to find that the nVidia (and also ATI, I believe) proprietary driver can be installed with just a few mouse clicks. In fact, Ubuntu & Mint automatically prompt you to install restricted hardware drivers after the first boot.
The instructions suggested Windows XP or better, so I installed Linux :)
FedoraRefugee
Level 6
Level 6
Posts: 1274
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:25 am

Re: Few Comments from a Windows guy

Post by FedoraRefugee »

Why is it that it is always the "experts" who cannot do the simplest thing with Linux? :roll: Meanwhile, a semi-literate construction worker such as myself has managed to use Linux (almost any distro you can name) for over 10 years now without hardly any trouble? :shock: Yes Virginia, Linux is ready! :wink:
jove04
Level 1
Level 1
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2010 12:28 pm

Re: Few Comments from a Windows guy

Post by jove04 »

Please don't take me wrong. I did not mean to criticize or downplay the hard work those dedicated individuals have put into all these. I really want to see Linux with a perfect GUI succeed. Even replace windows ultimately. My retirement is coming by the end of next year and I am planning to participate in programming Linux. For me, the difficulty involved in installing my NVIDIA card or using Linux after learning it is not an issue. I do tackle different problems every day. But, when I commented, I was thinking about the mass windows users. Immagine the dificulty levels that is involved here. I am an experienced computer user but I had difficulty installing something. Reflect my experience on the ordinary computer user and imagine what his difficulties would be.
User avatar
MALsPa
Level 8
Level 8
Posts: 2040
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:17 pm
Location: albuquerque

Re: Few Comments from a Windows guy

Post by MALsPa »

jove04 wrote:But, when I commented, I was thinking about the mass windows users. Immagine the dificulty levels that is involved here. I am an experienced computer user but I had difficulty installing something. Reflect my experience on the ordinary computer user and imagine what his difficulties would be.
That's kind of the point that FedoraRefugee was making. I was no computer expert when I started with Linux. I had barely discovered Firefox and was just beginning to realize that there was something out there called "Open Source." The expert IT guy at work kept telling me "Linux is not ready for prime time" and all this stuff. He kept implying that Linux was too far over my head. (I'd like to thank him now for providing me with the motivation to learn to use Linux.)
FedoraRefugee
Level 6
Level 6
Posts: 1274
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:25 am

Re: Few Comments from a Windows guy

Post by FedoraRefugee »

jove04 wrote:Please don't take me wrong. I did not mean to criticize or downplay the hard work those dedicated individuals have put into all these. I really want to see Linux with a perfect GUI succeed. Even replace windows ultimately.
Good! Then this is a great place to start! There is nothing wrong with criticizing Linux! Linux certainly does have many shortcomings, no doubt about that. However, Linux already has succeeded, far beyond anyone's dreams in fact! It has replaced Windows for many millions of people all around the world!
My retirement is coming by the end of next year and I am planning to participate in programming Linux.
Then you will have plenty of time to LEARN LINUX! See, this is the fatal mistake you have made all these years. You feel Linux needs to conform to your ideas, or, more properly, Microsoft's ideas, of what an OS should be. But this is wrong! Linux is a far better system than Windows. Now, hear me well, I am NOT saying that Linux is better than Windows! I am saying it is a better SYSTEM! Linux does things in a much cleaner, safer way. Your problem is you do not understand this way yet! But give it time. Lose your preconceptions and just embrace Linux for what it is. It does not need to conform, it has been a perfectly usable system for well over 10 years now! You will kick yourself for being such a fool all these years once you finally start to understand!
For me, the difficulty involved in installing my NVIDIA card or using Linux after learning it is not an issue. I do tackle different problems every day. But, when I commented, I was thinking about the mass windows users.
To be perfectly blunt, SCREW the mass Windows users! :shock: This is the prime mistake many in the Linux world make! Forget trying to save the world from Microsoft. It is stupid. Instead concentrate on making LINUX the best OS it can be. Do not dumb things down for the user, people are NOT stupid. If they want to learn Linux then they will learn! If not then they will find another OS.
Immagine the dificulty levels that is involved here.
There is no difficulty, only a mindset! I have 6 kids. Every single one of them learned Linux first then Windows. Every single one of them can argue with you for 12 hours on why Linux is EASIER than Windows! Your problem is you are trained in something else and you just cannot walk away from it.
I am an experienced computer user but I had difficulty installing something. Reflect my experience on the ordinary computer user and imagine what his difficulties would be.
Listen friend, my 9 year old has no problem installing distros. My 5 year old uses Mint. I am not saying things are as easy as they could be. I am not saying that there are not problems with Linux. I am not saying that a potential user does not have to do a LOT of reading before they attempt to install and use any given distro. You will encounter the same thing with Windows! What I am saying is Linux becomes easier and more accessible by the month! It does a great job at what it does. But it is NOT WINDOWS.

What is the REAL purpose behind your post? Think about it. It is a rhetorical question, I do not expect, or want an answer. I am also not accusing you of being a troll. But you need to understand that we get posts like yours all the time in all the Linux forums. They all follow the same EXACT pattern. Written by a Windows expert that has been trying to use Linux for X many years but cannot because it is not enough like Windows... But why even post to begin with? Is it frustration? Are you really trying to improve Linux? Do you honestly believe your post will be the light at the end of the tunnel we have all been waiting for? Your post will finally get all of us elitist geeks to see the light? Please, don't take this wrong, I am only trying to show you how you come across to a lot of us. I do not know if you seriously WANT to use Linux, but I can tell you for a fact that the only thing KEEPING you from using Linux is YOURSELF!
User avatar
MALsPa
Level 8
Level 8
Posts: 2040
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:17 pm
Location: albuquerque

Re: Few Comments from a Windows guy

Post by MALsPa »

jove04 wrote:Here is my simple advice. When you do a GUI think about it this way. This is going to be a Linux without the use of Terminals and command lines. Everything will be done using the GUI. The terminal will be used only by Linux experts to do expert things.
It might be good advice, but I really think if a person wants to use Linux, they should become comfortable with both GUI and CLI. Don't cripple Linux (and, make no mistake, Linux without the CLI is crippled!) just to gain a few more users. Folks who want something like Linux will learn how to use it and how to take advantage of it. Folks who don't have the time or inclination to use Linux can use Windows or a Mac. Plain and simple.
User avatar
pluraldave
Level 5
Level 5
Posts: 705
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:05 am

Re: Few Comments from a Windows guy

Post by pluraldave »

In order to use any modern computer you need two things: observation and common sense. Anything else you have learned only applies to the machine you learned it on.

Jove04 you have made the most common mistake that people switching to Linux make. You tried to apply Windows knowledge to Linux and found progress difficult. Square peg, round hole and a thread about how the hole was the wrong shape. Start afresh, use only observation and common sense and do things the easy way. Spot the notification asking you if you would like to install the Nvidia driver and click yes (unless it's a really new card).
mtrix
Level 1
Level 1
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 2:19 pm

Re: Few Comments from a Windows guy

Post by mtrix »

FedoraRefugee wrote:In other words you want a free Windows?

Yeah, there are many like you. Good luck. :D
Like 90% of world computer users.....
jove04 wrote:I have been using windows since the beginning. I used to be an expert of DOS before Windows. I program in C++ and other 6 languages and I do a lot of networking. All my experience about computers is related to windows/DOS only. For the last 15 years or so, I have tried to install and use Linux in its different forms. Red Hat, Slackware... You name it, I have tried them all. Every year or two, I run linux for about 15 days and then I erase the whole thing and go back to my Windows. I say to myself, "they are not there yet. Give them another year or two and they will destroy Windows".

Three months ago, my son gave me an UBUNTU CD and he asked me to install it and use it. I did that, but still I felt something was missing. So, I had to erase it all. My son is an Engineer. He had UBUNTU on his PC and Laptop for a long time now. Then he suggested I try Linux Mint. I did install Linux Mint 8. Suprise, suprise. finally I have found what I am after. The installation was a breeze. No complaints there. Now came the real test. I have to install my NVIDIA graphics card driver. I go to the NVIDIA site and I download the latest driver using Firefox. That file had a .run extension. I double click on it after the download but the system asked for an executable program to associate it with. Not only that, I had to read the forums to figure out how to install it. I needed to be a super user and install it in a terminal. That same day, I removed Linux Mint and went back to my windows. my comment was again, "they are not there yet. Give them another year or two and they will destroy Windows".

Yesterday, I installed UBUNTU 10.04. Again, installing my NVIDIA driver was time consuming. With this release, I had to be a super user, run the package in a DOS like windows using sh and I had to stop X Windows. Then reboot. Why all these? Can't the guys who designed this sophisticated operating system do a simple thing like allowing me to install a driver by just double clicking on the file? Today, early in the morning I have erased the whole thing and went back to my Windows.

I believe Linux Mint is going to be the standard on the desktop. I am waiting eagerly to try version 9. Here is my simple advice. When you do a GUI think about it this way. This is going to be a Linux without the use of Terminals and command lines. Everything will be done using the GUI. The terminal will be used only by Linux experts to do expert things. Think about giving me or other Windows users something that have a look and a feel of windows to start with. Don't make the look completely different from windows. Don't talk to me in cryptic sentences or words like /dev/sda or so.. Just talk to me in the language that I know which is c:\program files or so... or even use the size of the hard disk or the name of the volume. For me, dev/whatever is something strange. Let me learn it gradually and at a later stage. Don't ever face me with it.

Thank you all for your hard work
Now imagine yourself using linux for 15 years and now sitting on msdn forums asking for powershell 2.0 cuz 1.0 isnt powerfull as terminal... then you think... give windows another year.. there are not there yet... on the gui part i agree with you, partially, gui indeed needs some improvements... but the thing is, you WILL NOT ever like linux... its like a climax to an old woman, you are too tired and bored to search for software alternatives, that is what you pay for for m$, they do this for you. if you spent some time on monodevelop(c++ and another dozen of coding languages... i'm developer myself) you would know it fully replaces visual studio... as far as drivers go... every driver has its specifics.... in other words just dont bother if you are not to rise your butt up and think/search of/for something new...


Same goes to the new users... its microsofts monopoly for which they pay millions every day, because they dont let other OS' to coexists with them. if they'd start from linux and did not ever see windows at all...
imagine the situation when you ask people:
"do you know what microsoft word mean?"
and they say "what is that?"
you say "its new os"
they "oh sorry no, i'm using cannonical ubuntu"...
same is happening with windoze every day.... linux community growth depends on how many users are not afraid of change in their life and how many of them want to try something new... personally i used windows since 3.1, and i switched from linux to windows back and forth many times and on many distros until i found out about mint(that was Mint 7)... it does what i need and fully replaces all of the m$ fingies for me as a developer. and if you did not know under windows kernel all drives are also noted as /devices/HardDisk1/ or something like that(maybe i am wrong but i saw these debugging messages on XP many times), so windows is prittier, and no we dont need to change to C: and D: drives, those are windows ideology, linux has "/" thats what you need to know.

So in other words, to use linux you should start to think differently.
Biker
Level 5
Level 5
Posts: 514
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2010 1:58 am
Location: Where my hat is

Re: Few Comments from a Windows guy

Post by Biker »

The day that Linux becomes like WIndows, where all one needs to do is point and click, is the day I rip it off every system I own and look for something else. I've been using PCs since CPM and have programmed in COBOL, ADA and FORTRAN. Windows has created a generation of mindless users who want it all done for them just by clicking on a file. This is why the firewall and anti-virus industry is so huge. Lord help a user if they have to think about what they're doing. Oh no. All they want to do is get on the Internet and mindlessly click software links because they read something on the Internet. And then they blame the OS when their system turns into a 1500 dollar paperweight.

One SHOULD stop and think about what they're doing when using a computer. The fanatics can jump up and down all they want. Ignore them. This isn't about "sticking it to Microsoft". It's about learning a new OS that can do things differently and more efficiently on your computer. Those that recite the "anti Microsoft" mantra do more to dissuade people from trying Linux than any other reason.

If what you're looking for is point and click, stick with Windows. If you want something that runs efficiently, treats your system well, and gives you a bit of a challenge at the same time, definitely load Linux up and really learn it. But to bemoan the fact that it doesn't act like Windows is a red herring. It's not Windows. It's not supposed to be like Windows. And the day it does become like that is the day I no longer use it.
Linux User #384279
User avatar
Aging Technogeek
Level 13
Level 13
Posts: 4578
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:54 am
Location: Right about here

Re: Few Comments from a Windows guy

Post by Aging Technogeek »

Possibly the best advice anyone can give to a Windows Poweruser who is trying to get into Linux is, read this:

http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm

This document explains in great detail, using everyday examples, the changes required in your mindset to enable you to use and enjoy Linux.

The basic change is to accept that in Linux you know nothing. And you don't. All of the knowledge, gained over many years of using an immutable monolith called Windows, is worthless in Linux. Well, almost. The general knowledge of computer functions will help some, but forget all you learned about making a computer do what you want in Windows. Linux doesn't work that way.

Once you accept that you know nearly nothing, the learning can start. And you will find that the learning curve in Linux is fast and gets faster as you learn. That is why children and adults who have never seen or used a computer are some of the fastest to learn Linux. They have not been brainwashed for years by Microsoft into thinking that the "Windows Way" is the only way. They come with no preconceptions of what an Operating System should be and so accept what Linux is and learn quickly.

Every Windows power user who derides Linux says about the same thing. "If I have this much trouble with all of my experience, a new computer user will be completely unable to use Linux" What these people never realize is that it is the very knowledge of and ability to use Windows that they brag about that is keeping them from using Linux effectively. Forget Windows and embrace Linux as a new experience and you will have much less difficulty in the transition.

jove04 wrote,
I am an experienced computer user but I had difficulty installing something. Reflect my experience on the ordinary computer user and imagine what his difficulties would be.
That sir is where you are wrong,. You are an experienced WINDOWS computer user. Learn Linux and possibly Mac OSX or BSD, or even Solaris or OS/2(yes that's still around). Then you can say you are an experienced computer user
Registered Linux User 483387
technoferret
Level 1
Level 1
Posts: 45
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:30 pm

Re: Few Comments from a Windows guy

Post by technoferret »

Aging Technogeek wrote: Every Windows power user who derides Linux says about the same thing. "If I have this much trouble with all of my experience, a new computer user will be completely unable to use Linux" What these people never realize is that it is the very knowledge of and ability to use Windows that they brag about that is keeping them from using Linux effectively. Forget Windows and embrace Linux as a new experience and you will have much less difficulty in the transition.

jove04 wrote,
I am an experienced computer user but I had difficulty installing something. Reflect my experience on the ordinary computer user and imagine what his difficulties would be.
That sir is where you are wrong,. You are an experienced WINDOWS computer user. Learn Linux and possibly Mac OSX or BSD, or even Solaris or OS/2(yes that's still around). Then you can say you are an experienced computer user

I totally agree. As a WINDOWS geek I was having trouble with using a Mac until a Mac geek gave me some advice.
"Clear your mind, forget everything you know about Windows and approach the OS like you've never touched a computer before"
It worked AND when I started trying Linux I used the same philosophy.
Its all your Windows expertise thats stopping you fully appreciating the basic simplicity and ease of use of Mint.
User avatar
MALsPa
Level 8
Level 8
Posts: 2040
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:17 pm
Location: albuquerque

Re: Few Comments from a Windows guy

Post by MALsPa »

technoferret wrote: "Clear your mind, forget everything you know about Windows and approach the OS like you've never touched a computer before".
That's really a good way to approach things. When I stopped thinking in Windows terms and started thinking in Linux terms, everything opened up. The light went on! :idea: That is really one of the most important things that you can try to convey to a person who is new to Linux.
User avatar
tdockery97
Level 14
Level 14
Posts: 5060
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:54 am
Location: Mt. Angel, Oregon

Re: Few Comments from a Windows guy

Post by tdockery97 »

I too have used windows since the dos days. As a matter of fact, my very first computer was a Timex-Sinclair 1000. The reason I switched from Windows 7 to Linux Mint 8 is because linux is FUN. I guess what makes me different from most windows users is an interest in how things work. When I switched to Mint 8, I had trouble getting the sound to work on the speakers of my new HP laptop. The huge linux community is what finally helped me get it working. My way of thinking is like the moderator's item above: if it's not broken, fix it until it is, then reinstall. Because it's FUN. But that's just me.
Mint MATE 20.1
User avatar
det4100
Level 4
Level 4
Posts: 224
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:51 am
Location: New York

Re: Few Comments from a Windows guy

Post by det4100 »

Am I not using the correct drivers for my video cards? I have gforce 9400 gt's and 9500 gt's with 1gig of ram each. After installing Mint, I either wait for Mint to tell me the drivers are available or I go to the control panel and click on Hardware Drivers. Have I been doing it wrong?

I see this complaint a lot in the forums. I don't know if folks are just rushing the installs without reading the manuals, or somehow screwing up the installation. To be honest, I have not had a problem yet with any Mint install except one. Turned out to be bad media.


I admit, I have had some difficulty with SIS chips and old ATI laptop drivers, but that is to expected. But still managed to get them going, and I'm no computer geek.

det4100
det4100

Running Mint Debian
Craig_Dem
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 85
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2009 3:16 pm

Re: Few Comments from a Windows guy

Post by Craig_Dem »

Why use the terminal?
I find it much quicker to do certain tasks, take installing a program for example. Say I want to install avant-windows-navigator;

apt-get install avant-window-navigator
(I know you can use the mint script without get)

One line of typing, instead of;

Open mintMenu
Open mintInstall/Synaptic
Search for avant-window-navigator
Tick the box.
Apply.

I hope linux never gets too dumbed down. The terminal should never just be used by "experts", it is actually very simple and a great tool to have. For example, most terminal commands take the form

<command> <condition> eg. uname -r or apt-get install

I think this topic , http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=5714 , also applies here.
AMD Phenom 9550 Quad-Core Processor | ATI Radeon X1200 | Arch Linux | Gnome
2.66 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo | NVIDIA GeForce 9400 | Mac OS X 10.6.4 |
If your question is answered edit your topic title and add [SOLVED] to the beginning of it.
User avatar
vrkalak
Level 12
Level 12
Posts: 4406
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2009 5:53 pm
Location: Santa Fe, NM, USA

Re: Few Comments from a Windows guy

Post by vrkalak »

My sister, last year had her PC crash big-time. She just gave it to my nephew and decided to buy a new desktop PC, as hers was more than 5 years old anyway.

I talked her into getting a used one with NO Operating system pre-installed. They are cheaper.

She agreed ... and said, that she just needed a basic computer with Windows XP and not too much hard-drive, as she doesn't really do anything besides check her email and use the Word Program.
She didn't really every get 'on-line' much. She told me, that she really didn't know much about using a computer, at all. And didn't need a 'program' like Linux.

Well ...I bought a used PC with 528 Mb of RAM and a 70 Gb hard-drive, then installed LinuxMint-8 Xfce on it. Paid around $100 total.

She threw a mild 'huff' at this, but I told her it was just like her old XP only better. That Mint/Xfce was easier to use and customize with more features.
I gave her a quick 10 minute lesson on how to use Mint and showed her where the Mint-8 Guidebook was. (I had pre-installed this) That's all.
Not exaggerating ... a 10 minute class on using Mint.

How to open the desktop, and a very basic how-to change the desktop, how-to add or remove from the panel, how-to do an update (when it tells you), install only from the Synaptic.

I knew she would be calling to help her set-up her internet, because she planned to connect via Direct TV(satellite dish) ... but, she never called. "It connected automatically"
She has had it for about a month now. And hasn't complained about anything. "Everything works, and better than my XP" And a month later ... everything still works.

The secret is ... if it does everything that you want or need to do ... use it. No matter if it's Mint, Ubuntu, a Mac or Windows; go for it.
Image
:: Debian-Sid (Xfce/Fluxbox) :: LinuxMint-18 (LTS) LXDE w/Openbox ::
Registered Linux User: #497031 :: My DeviantART Page
Lantesh
Level 6
Level 6
Posts: 1214
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2008 1:02 pm

Re: Few Comments from a Windows guy

Post by Lantesh »

Yet another end user who is expecting Linux to work exactly like Windows. I don't expect my motorcycle to drive exactly like my car. Why would I expect Linux to work exactly like Windows? If Windows is what you want then use Windows. Nobody will think any less of you. If you want to expand your horizons and try something new then clear your mind, and get ready to learn. The trip is worth it.
Post Reply

Return to “Non-technical Questions”