Mint 19 stable = forcing hands just like Microcrap

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michael louwe
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Re: Mint 19 stable = forcing hands just like Microcrap

Post by michael louwe » Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:03 pm

karlchen wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:33 am
C) Where exactly did anyone tell the (buggy first) intel-microcode patch could damage the cpu?
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/01/0 ... wered_pcs/ (It gets worse: Microsoft’s Spectre-fixer wrecks some AMD PCs, KB4056892 is not your friend if you run an Athlon, By Simon Sharwood, APAC Editor 8 Jan 2018 at 06:30) ???

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Re: Mint 19 stable = forcing hands just like Microcrap

Post by whm1974 » Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:11 pm

michael louwe wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:03 pm
karlchen wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:33 am
C) Where exactly did anyone tell the (buggy first) intel-microcode patch could damage the cpu?
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/01/0 ... wered_pcs/ (It gets worse: Microsoft’s Spectre-fixer wrecks some AMD PCs, KB4056892 is not your friend if you run an Athlon, By Simon Sharwood, APAC Editor 8 Jan 2018 at 06:30) ???
In other words it didn't actually damaged the CPU but the Windows 10 installation.

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Re: Mint 19 stable = forcing hands just like Microcrap

Post by michael louwe » Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:34 pm

whm1974 wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:11 pm
michael louwe wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:03 pm
karlchen wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:33 am
C) Where exactly did anyone tell the (buggy first) intel-microcode patch could damage the cpu?
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/01/0 ... wered_pcs/ (It gets worse: Microsoft’s Spectre-fixer wrecks some AMD PCs, KB4056892 is not your friend if you run an Athlon, By Simon Sharwood, APAC Editor 8 Jan 2018 at 06:30) ???
In other words it didn't actually damaged the CPU but the Windows 10 installation.
https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Security-M ... -p/4029609 (Why are so many users experiencing a bricked computer after recent Bios update - 03-31-2018 12:38 PM) ???

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Re: Mint 19 stable = forcing hands just like Microcrap

Post by whm1974 » Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:44 pm

michael louwe wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:34 pm
whm1974 wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:11 pm
michael louwe wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:03 pm

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/01/0 ... wered_pcs/ (It gets worse: Microsoft’s Spectre-fixer wrecks some AMD PCs, KB4056892 is not your friend if you run an Athlon, By Simon Sharwood, APAC Editor 8 Jan 2018 at 06:30) ???
In other words it didn't actually damaged the CPU but the Windows 10 installation.
https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Security-M ... -p/4029609 (Why are so many users experiencing a bricked computer after recent Bios update - 03-31-2018 12:38 PM) ???
BIOS updates are a very different beast then Operating System patches. Botched BIOS updates usually require getting a new motherboard.

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Re: Mint 19 stable = forcing hands just like Microcrap

Post by karlchen » Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:00 pm

Michael Louwe,

in none of the articles, which you linked to, anyone talks about damage done to the CPU or to any other hardware part. The damage is always done to the operating system. It is bad enough, if a patch renders your current OS useless beyond recovery. But in such cases, it would always be possible to setup the system from scratch and restore data from the most recent backup. Time consuming, annoying, but no hardware damage involved.

Regards,
Karl
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Re: Mint 19 stable = forcing hands just like Microcrap

Post by MtnDewManiac » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:03 pm

Ranting - especially on Internet forums - appears to be human nature at this point. It seems to be a harmless way for people to (virtually) shout and cast blame... without forcing them to blame the person who is generally at fault (IOW, the person doing the ranting) - at least initially, lol.

Unfortunately, that changes rather quickly when others kindly point out the glaring holes in the person's rant :lol: .

I read that Internet for Dummies book, and in chapter two it states that one way to determine the difference between a rant and a valid complaint is the use of derogatory nicknames for well-known entities. Apparently, those are used approximately 93% of the time in rants - but only 7% of the time in legitimate complaints.
rado84 wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 6:50 am
Microcrap
<COUGH>
rado84 wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 6:50 am
are given no right to choose. This kind of forcing hands was the reason for me migrating to Android
Request for clarification: You demand the right to control all things related to your OS... Yet you choose to run one that is created/published by Google?

With all... due respect, I sense a lack of logic, here :roll: .

Additionally: Although I am no genius, my math skills are at least on par with that of the average seven year old. So please allow me to apply a bit of second-grader arithmetic here. (Our teacher called them word problems, BTW, and the solution was often right there in the text.) When many thousands of people all receive the same, exact updates, and ONE person experiences an issue, who is most likely to be at fault for that issue?

Anyone? Ah. By the extreme number of hands I see raised in the audience, it is obvious that all of you did just fine in your elementary school math classes.

Well, most of you, at least ;) .

I'd like to take a moment to compliment the members here. Someone opens a thread full of insults - and, still, people go out of their way to try to help him. Bravo!
kc1di wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:40 am
Maybe Gentoo or Arch would be better fit.
Gentoo... Isn't that the one where users are required to download pretty much everything as a source file and then compile things themselves? While it would, in theory, meet the requirements of the OP (everything under his control), in practice... This appears to be vanishingly unlikely. It has been several years, but I did do some reading in the Gentoo forum. That distro seems to presuppose either some basic level of proficiency or the willingness to learn same. Much of that happens in the forum; the members are very helpful, but basic politeness... I guess you could consider that to be a "dependency" for getting help with the learning of Gentoo.

Dependency not met!!! (lol)

Arch... No, definitely not. From the ArchWiki page on Microcode:
These updates provide bug fixes that can be critical to the stability of your system. Without these updates, you may experience spurious crashes or unexpected system halts that can be difficult to track down.

Users of CPUs belonging to the Intel Haswell and Broadwell processor families in particular must install these microcode updates to ensure system stability. But all Intel users should install the updates as a matter of course.
I'd guess that the most likely reply the OP would receive at an Arch forum after posting that he didn't want to install the Intel microcode would be: "Why on earth not?"
7im4pple wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:07 am
And why on gods green earth do you not want the fixes to these flaws in the processors?
I guess common sense abounds, regardless of the distro, lol.
rado84 wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:45 pm
whm1974 wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:14 pm
Are you sure it is the Intel microcode doing this?
100% sure! When I installed the nvidia driver (before proceeding to update manager), everything was fine. I rebooted the system so that nvidia driver starts working and the DE appeared without much of a problem.
"Without much" of a problem, that's the same as stating that there WAS a problem (but that it wasn't "much" of one).

But I do not know you. Therefore, I do not know whether this is evidence that your command of the English language is poorer than you think it is, whether you had already realized at that point that the cause of your issue was, in fact, YOU... or if it was just a Freudian Slip and it was only your subconscious that had made that realization. While I am somewhat curious as to which of the three it was, from the tone of your posts in this thread it is pretty clear that we should not expect a direct, honest answer to this question.
rado84 wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:45 pm
No need to answer here anymore, I'm done with Mint 19!
See what I mean? :mrgreen:
rado84 wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:26 pm
Thanks, Karlchen, but it's not my job to fix the bullsh*t Mint devs have done.
As has been pointed out, that would have been Ubuntu (at worst).

We like to think of Mint as its own distro - and it is, I suppose. But perhaps it would be more appropriate to think of it as a patched and customized version of Ubuntu. I recently complained about something, and it was explained to me that what I was complaining about happened upstream, that it was the Ubuntu developers controlling it. Fair enough. But it did drive home the fact that so many things are controlled by the Ubuntu developers - and, therefore, that problems could arise which were beyond the Mint developers' control (at least in the immediate sense). Look at the recent issue regarding in-place upgrades from Mint 18 to Mint 19 for an example of this. Because... Ubuntu.
rado84 wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:26 pm
A moment ago I exported from a backup the last supposedly stable Mint 18.3 Cinnamon edition.
Stable? Respectfully, these are computers, OS/distros, and software we are discussing here. If you want "stable," hunt yard sales until you find a Commodore 64. The OS used on those things is stable. The OS that you see when you power up a C=64 for the first time is the exact same one you'll see when you power it up for the last time.

Stable... LOL.

With modern computers, THERE IS NO STABLE. Trust me. Even if you choose to never allow a single update... the miscreants of the computer world will end up making changes for you. Even vis-à-vis linux. People forget this (basic) fact. I think that's why there was such a level of panic when the news about Spectre and Meltdown broke. Not because of the potential for harm, but because it shattered that whole "I don't have to use basic common sense because I run a linux OS" fallacy.
rado84 wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:26 pm
Which is weird because when I made that backup they were supported and worked flawlessly.
When reverting to a backup fails to solve a problem, it's a pretty safe bet that any updates you were served since making that backup... did NOT cause your problem.
rado84 wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:26 pm
and discovered my Mint has downloaded (without asking me, ofcourse) a kernel version 4.15.something.something.
Doggone it, I thought I was the person who was supposed to end up with the one installation of Mint in the universe that forced the user to accept kernel updates both without the user's permission and without es knowledge of the event having even occurred.

I guess the big, whiny, illogical rant that I posted here soon after I became a member and Mint user just wasn't considered to be vile enough. Wow, you must have really p*ssed them off annoyed the developers in the recent past, huh?
rado84 wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:26 pm
So, if nobody here can see how Mint devs behave just like Microcrap by forcing unwanted updates, it's your loss.
Last time I lost as badly as I did when I discovered linux Mint, I managed to purchase a car worth $3,000 for $1,000 - and then sold it less than a month later for $5,000.
rado84 wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:26 pm
I'm done with Mint for a very, very long time!
You stated much the same thing, earlier. Do you actually mean it this time?
rado84 wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:26 pm
I'd rather go back to Windows than to deal with the tyranny of Mint devs.
That seems logical. (And THAT was sarcasm.)
rado84 wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:26 pm
Because of that digital tyranny I changed my phone from Windows 10 to an Android one.
...because you think it's wise to use an OS on your desktop (laptop?) that you refuse to use on your cell phone.

One great thing about rants, one person gets to blow off a little stress - while everyone else gets to laugh at the ranter's increasing level of nonsense. Seems beneficial to all concerned. That's rare these days, in any venue. Thanks!
rado84 wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:26 pm
(one moderator excluded because he doesn't know the meaning of the word "politeness")
Personally, I'd much prefer someone pointed out how stupid I was, while helping me, than if the person patted me on the back - but was either unable or unwilling to help. Because the former means that the person actually helped me TWICE (ask someone, maybe they can explain this to you).
rado84 wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:26 pm
digital tyranny will lead to Mint's destruction.
Yeah, I saw Clem sneaking out of town on the 4:40 Westbound, clutching a sack of cash in one hand and his pretty young secretary in the other. Wait a minute, that was a movie I fell asleep watching last evening :D . In truth, I seriously doubt that Clem has even noticed your rant - but if he has, I would say it's a safe bet that, if anything, he only shook his head and went on to some more important activity. Perhaps there was some paint he needed to watch as it dried...
JosephM wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:46 pm
Well have fun :)
When I was a young teenager going out of an evening, Mom used to say, "Have fun, but be good." Strangely enough, I always seemed to hear, "If you can't be good, have fun." :wink:
rado84 wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:46 am
the backdoor devs of Mint.
Congratulations. Your rant has now been successfully upgraded to a conspiracy theory. It's a shame you appear to be somewhat less proficient at upgrading your computer.
rado84 wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:46 am
An 18.3 system which used to work quite fine 2 weeks ago now updates on its own in /silent mode without asking me whether I want that update or not, despite I had it set to only show all available but without anything being selected (checked), so I can do that manually.
Go on, admit it. You're a spy, aren't you? They pull this kind of stuff all the time on spies. Keeps making their jobs harder. Just yesterday, one of the good guys had managed to obtain a video that showed a bunch of a supposedly aligned government's agents dressed as domestic police officers in a running gun battle with the main good guy, but someone remotely messed with the video so that every time he emailed it to someone else, all they actually received was garbage.

Oh, wait - that was a Court Gentry novel. But it was a good one, though!

This may surprise you, but in real life... things aren't like they are in fiction novels. Nice try, though. That's even better than your scenario where Clem's empire falls. Have you sold the movie rights, yet? (I know a good agent; at least he charges enough that he ought to be...)
rado84 wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:46 am
And I can't even revert it to 4.13 kernel because somehow it misteriously disappeared after 4.15 was silently downloaded.
Well, yeah. It wouldn't be a very good dramatic device if the protagonist could just select option B, now, would it? And you were doing so well. How are you ever going to get published if you cannot remember what you learned in Fiction-Writing 101?
rado84 wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:46 am
Since I already tried all debian based distros and they all behave exactly like the last few days Mint (some even used a lot of Mint software)
Debian-based distros use Mint software? I think you wrote that statement backwards. Hopefully, your editor will catch it before the Advanced Reader Copy gets released.

BtW, if your avatar image is comparable to what you picture your protagonist as looking like, you need to change that right now. Now only has the dumb ox look become passé, but how can you ever expect him to run a successful detection/evasion routine when that bowling ball head is obvious from 200 meters away, lol?
gm10 wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:53 am
Off you go then, the less time you spend ranting here, the more time you have to code your own OS.
You know good and well that when a person states three times that they're leaving, they're actually going to be harder to get rid of than Venetian Toe Fungus. (And everyone knows that VTF is even more likely to stick around than Martian Underarm Rot.)
Pjotr wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:56 am
You might be making a mistake.
Pjotr, I respect you, your knowledge, and your willingness to help, greatly indeed. But do try and keep up, lol. Most of the rest of us realized that the OP had made a mistake by the time we finished reading the very first post in this thread :lol: .

I'd guess that the OP has realized this, too. But, you know... Pride, and all that.
smurphos wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:29 am
@rado84 - with all due respect you've likely borked something your end with the 18.3 install.
Almost every time I read those four words - and EVERY time I find myself typing them - I find myself wishing that there was a handy meter displaying the actual amount.

BTW, if you italicize the word "due," it looks even better (and is probably more factual at that point).
smgordon1259 wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:35 pm
Pathetic, he refuses to acknowledge that the kernel is in his control. No one forced you to get the new kernel. Try reading the updates before install, this will help alleviate your frustration and false finger pointing in the future.
Been there, done that (in general, I mean). Sometimes, if a person is determined enough - and unwise enough - it seems like their only option is to keep on shoveling, even though everyone (including, most times, that individual) knows that the only likely result of voluntarily digging oneself deeper... is a cave-in.

At which point, someone has to step in and become so obviously annoying to everyone that the individual can quietly begin fixing his screwup in the background while everyone else's attention is diverted. Hey, OP: You're welcome :P . If you are still fatally embarrassed, I suggest hitting the nearest anonymizer and creating a new account to do so. You can then "just appear," post that - strangely enough - you're suffering the exact same issue that the OP in this very thread has described, lol. I realize that multiple accounts are against the rules, but perhaps you will be forgiven in this one specific instance? Especially since, in order to pull it off, you'll have to both assume a persona that is completely different from your actual one (might I suggest politeness? That'll throw everyone off...) and allow your original account to lapse, maybe after posting one final mega-rant and stating (yet again) that you're going to exit stage left.

At which point someone will suggest that you start your own thread, all this silliness (including mine) can be forgotten, and one or more of the experts here can actually be allowed to help you fix your issue. Err... Your computer-related one, I mean.
gm10 wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:48 pm
Don't forget damages for willful infliction of emotional distress.
While I agree that it was willful, lol, I don't see where the OP has actually succeeded in causing us any emotional distress. In point of fact, I'm feeling better than I did before I started reading this thread. But maybe I'm in the minority on that one?
whm1974 wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:19 pm
HaveaMint wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:07 pm
OMG! You mean we have to READ! I demand a full refund... :!:
It really is the users fault they refuse to read any of Documentation before doing a major upgrade, especially in place ones. In particular the Release Notes for Known issues.
This is NOT specific to this thread, but I've often thought that, if a visitor from another planet ever arrived, acquired Internet access, and began browsing forums... That said visitor would report back to his/her/its home world how utterly remarkable it is that our species is capable of writing... without ever having learned to read.

But then the visitor will probably stumble upon the line about how an infinite number of monkeys, given an infinite amount of time at monkey-sized typewriters, will end up hammering out the complete works of William Shakespeare - at which point, the alien will undoubtedly end up introducing itself to a nearby tree, thinking it to be the primary intelligent species on the planet :roll: .

Meanwhile... the dolphins just keep laughing.
BG405 wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:37 am
From the OP's signature: Windows 7 x64 ... & no mention of Linux :roll: .. for someone who likes to be in control, what happens when support ends?
My guess is, it becomes obvious just how little control the user actually has (where the fact that he/she had very little to begin with was a tiny bit less obvious before).

BTW, why wait until support ends, lol? Even Microsoft appears to think it's not the wisest thing in the world to run one of its supported OS:
In a new post on the official Microsoft Newsroom, the company has warned Windows 7 users the ageing platform suffers from a number of serious failings including security deficiencies and hardware restrictions while reiterating all support for the platform is ending. It’s scary stuff.

“Today, [Windows 7] does not meet the requirements of modern technology, nor the high security requirements of IT departments,” says Markus Nitschke, Head of Windows at Microsoft Germany.

The Microsoft post (originally written in German) goes into more detail actively attacking Windows 7 for its "long-outdated security architectures" and warning any users and businesses who are running that they are more susceptible to cyber attacks.

But the remarkable beatdown of its own platform doesn’t stop there. Microsoft says that sticking with Windows 7 will result in "higher operating costs" for users due to problems with reliability and compatibility. It also warns some manufacturers are actively shunning Windows 7 and stopping driver support while the newest chipsets from AMD, Intel and Qualcomm are incompatible.

Microsoft completes this somber vision for Windows 7 by emphasising that life cycle is ending and when that happens it will no longer provide any security updates or technical support.
(Article dated January 17, 2017)
https://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkell ... 741f5cecdb

Regards,
MDM
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If guns kill people, then pencils misspell words, cars make people drive drunk, and spoons made Rosie O'Donnell fat.

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Re: Mint 19 stable = forcing hands just like Microcrap

Post by whm1974 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:09 am

Well said MDM. I've always have read the documentation of the software I have used, especially OSes. The OP wants full control of his system? Then both Linux and the BSDs will give it to him alright. However it is up to him to read the proper documentation and learn how to to use the controls properly.

And yes always keep up with the updates.

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Re: Mint 19 stable = forcing hands just like Microcrap

Post by JosephM » Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:37 am

@MDM - One of the most entertaining things I've read in awhile. I feel like someone had a lot of free time today :)
Debian-based distros use Mint software? I think you wrote that statement backwards. Hopefully, your editor will catch it before the Advanced Reader Copy gets released.
This actually is true. There are a lot of Debian/Ubuntu based distros out there and I have seen some that use mint tools like the Software Manager.
When I give opinions, they are my own. Not necessarily those of any other Linux Mint developer or the Linux Mint project as a whole.

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Re: Mint 19 stable = forcing hands just like Microcrap

Post by catweazel » Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:56 am

MtnDewManiac wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:03 pm
With all... due respect, I sense a lack of logic, here :roll: .

[...]

When many thousands of people all receive the same, exact updates, and ONE person experiences an issue, who is most likely to be at fault for that issue?
Logical fallacy of argumentum ad numerum.
[...]

Well, most of you, at least ;) .
Logical fallacy of argumentum ad populum
Caution: Dancing Wu Li Master and Official curmudgeon-in-chief

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Re: Mint 19 stable = forcing hands just like Microcrap

Post by michael louwe » Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:43 am

https://itsfoss.com/ubuntu-17-10-bios-bug/
Ubuntu 17.10 BIOS Bug: What You Need To Know

Last updated January 10, 2018 By Derick Sullivan M. Lobga 27 Comments

Brief: Installing Ubuntu 17.10 bricks many Lenovo and some Toshiba and Acer laptops. Canonical has removed the Ubuntu 17.10 downloads from its website and will rerelease it on 11th January.
.
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+sour ... ug/1734147
.
Aren't updates to the Linux kernel and CPU microcode considered dangerous or high risk.?

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Re: Mint 19 stable = forcing hands just like Microcrap

Post by Moem » Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:58 am

michael louwe wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:43 am
Aren't updates to the Linux kernel and CPU microcode considered dangerous or high risk.?
So now the goal posts have been moved from 'damage to the CPU' to 'considered dangerous or high risk'?

By the way, my update manager tells me these updates are 'sensitive, and to be applied with caution'. Not dangerous or high risk. So: no, they are not.
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Re: Mint 19 stable = forcing hands just like Microcrap

Post by karlchen » Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:08 am

Hi, Michael Louwe.

The statement had been that this year's intel-microcode and/or amd64-microcode patches could damage a computer. The truth is the first patch generation has been faulty and caused machines to hang or to reboot unexpectedly. But once the faulty patches had been reverted no damaged hardware was left behind.

The faulty Ubuntu 17.10, which could / would render certain uefi boot systems unbootable beyond repair by the user himself,
a) is a different topic, not related to intel-microcode and am64-microcode patches
b) shows that faulty software can render a machine useless
c) raises the question whether uefi boot is superior to Bios boot in any way (different topic, which should not be discussed here)

Anyway, yes, low-level software can render a system useless to such an extend that a user may no longer be able to repair it.
Only the microcode patches have not done so. - OK. Said so more than once. I'll stop parroting myself here.

Regards,
Karl
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Re: Mint 19 stable = forcing hands just like Microcrap

Post by idle » Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:18 am

I thoroughly enjoyed reading this entire three page thread. :mrgreen:

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Re: Mint 19 stable = forcing hands just like Microcrap

Post by thx-1138 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:28 am

idle wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:18 am
I thoroughly enjoyed reading this entire three page thread. :mrgreen:
michaeljacksonpopcorn.jpg :mrgreen:
Last edited by karlchen on Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Move to "Chat about Linux Mint". - Definitely not a support request in here. - Popcorn? - Time for the final curtain. - End titles. - Audience leaving the theatre.

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