Just say NO to Mint19

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rambo919
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Re: Just say NO to Mint19

Post by rambo919 » Sat Sep 22, 2018 5:16 am

The biggest problem with LM19 is how massive the switch between base repo's are... debian and ubuntu have made many decisions that are only now catching up to many people and they are resenting so many of their old habits "suddenly" not being catered to any more. That's some of these decisions are very disruptive is an understatement and that some of them have been "replaced" with what to common users must seem inferior solutions is obvious by now. Dev's and Admin's seemingly unable to understand that their respective bubbles are exactly that and that most people wan't something that needs a LOT less effort is probably the chief culprit.... as soon as everything works and the general public is JUST well enough trained "let's throw it all out and start again because that's gonna be fun for us".... somehow a car that never gets on the road because it's semi-permanently in the garage being tinkered with is not exactly fun for most of us :/

The problem is at this point every single OS can be easily bashed all the time because either the idiots in charge don't actually have to worry about fixing their own stuff with a "I'll just have one of my people swap it out if something stops working" attitude or there is no one actually in charge and "chaos is good nothing actually has to even happen in my lifetime because tinkering is what I live for" is the prevailing semi-religion that people go on figurative crusades for.... the rest of us are left to just sigh and choose the one closest to what currently works best for us.... there is no one actually catering to the intermediate-advanced people any more because they are corporates with big brother tendencies or anarchists that are in love with being "eccentric" which in reality is a lot more obnoxious than romantic. Honestly at this point my opinion is "loving" an OS is probably a mental disorder.... something most people commonly see in Samsung and Apple "fans"... the recent Samsung ads mocking Apple were kinda funny though.... I am simply incapable of understanding such obsessions with zero grounding in long term reality especially the way Apple consumers have been conned into being "rebels" by spending huge amounts of money on overpriced products which lock them into conformity.

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Re: Just say NO to Mint19

Post by Pjotr » Sat Sep 22, 2018 5:43 am

rambo919 wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 5:16 am
The biggest problem with LM19 is how massive the switch between base repo's are... debian and ubuntu have made many decisions that are only now catching up to many people and they are resenting so many of their old habits "suddenly" not being catered to any more. That's some of these decisions are very disruptive is an understatement and that some of them have been "replaced" with what to common users must seem inferior solutions is obvious by now.
True, but those changes are mostly "under the hood", and they're in most cases undeniable improvements.

Furthermore, you can choose to limit the disruption of progress for yourself, to once every five years.... Because that's the lifespan of each Mint series.
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Re: Just say NO to Mint19

Post by rambo919 » Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:09 am

Pjotr wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 5:43 am
True, but those changes are mostly "under the hood", and they're in most cases undeniable improvements.

Furthermore, you can choose to limit the disruption of progress for yourself, to once every five years.... Because that's the lifespan of each Mint series.
The problem is the single good reason to switch bases is getting new features across the board instead of needlessly relying on in some cases soon to be obsolete ppa's. Since older bases eventually almost solely get security fixes a switch eventually gets forced... staying on a older base is fine if you are running a server or only using the most basic packages daily but for most others that kind of obscurity is stifling. It is this antipathy to stagnation that tends to fuel most upgrading between what is advertised as stable (and complete) branches. Then when someone says it's actually still effectively a public beta (as opposed to a private pre-release beta) until the first .1 release the signals get completely crossed. The same exercise happens (as has been mentioned repeatedly on the forum) with windows releases that are sometimes semi-terrible until the first service pack, most people still expect a initial "release" to be mostly problem-less even though history has clearly proven this to almost never be the case.

But my main point I guess was that some of the the improvements are not necessarily improvements in practice because they make things more complicated or cause the end user to need to learn more than previously necessary. A good example was gksu which was a short simple substitution for "force this app to run GUI as root". Yes the substitute works well enough but it's more complicated by needing extra parameters and literally being longer. For most long term linux terminal users this is no problem but most current linux users do not yet have that kind of muscle memory for terminal commands yet and worse still are scared of using the terminal simply because they make spelling errors or sometimes remember the order wrong or something so they try to stay away from it as much as possible anyway or they stick to the simplest possible commands if they REALLY need to touch it.... complicate something previously simple and you get even more resistance.

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Re: Just say NO to Mint19

Post by Pjotr » Sat Sep 22, 2018 11:38 am

rambo919 wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:09 am
But my main point I guess was that some of the the improvements are not necessarily improvements in practice because they make things more complicated or cause the end user to need to learn more than previously necessary. A good example was gksu which was a short simple substitution for "force this app to run GUI as root". Yes the substitute works well enough but it's more complicated by needing extra parameters and literally being longer.
Well, securitywise, the replacement (pkexec) definitely is an improvement over gksu.... Because gksu makes the entire app run as root, while pkexec limits the root permissions for an app, to those parts of the app that really need it. The other parts of the app only get user permissions.

So pkexec makes your system more secure. It takes some getting used to, I certainly admit that, but it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make for the extra security it creates....

Also, admin:// and not pkexec is needed when you want to edit a root-owned text file (settings file). For example:

Code: Select all

xed admin:///etc/default/grub
The three consecutive dashes in the command are a bit weird at first, as are the two(!) times that you need to enter your root password. The only small gripe I have is that admin:// can't create new files; you have to create a previously non-existing file first, for example by means of touch.

Most changes like these, have sound technical reasons. The real problem is rather, that such changes are badly communicated (if at all). Linux developers are good at developing, but very often not so good at telling the world what they changed and why they did it.
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Re: Just say NO to Mint19

Post by rambo919 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:03 am

Exactly, it's more secure but potentially completely befuddling in it's extra complexity. One step forward for the tech department and two steps back for marketing.... "improvement" is too subjectively localized or put differently chaotic. If nothing else it appears to be extremely unprofessional/amateurish and makes many not take the OS very seriously. The problem is that the old model of chaos chaos chaos GLORIOUS chaos is antiquated and the two proprietary giants are only in bad repute for their arrogance... Linux in general has grown old enough to stop acting like a emo teenager with delusions of grand superiority.

Honestly it's frustrating because all the potential is locked up in short term thinking and lethargy. Yes Linux is now a good enough in general replacement for PC's and laptops but it's slow development meant it fell down when fast change was needed for capturing the new tablet and smartphone markets... it completely lost to Android which is free and TERRIBLE in many cases (especially some versions) so it cannot even claim to have been up against paid. And probably the biggest problem there was that no one could manage to prod enough devs to convert their x86 apps to arm while android apps (useless as most of them are) sprung up like weeds.

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Re: Just say NO to Mint19

Post by catweazel » Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:24 am

rambo919 wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:03 am
Exactly, it's more secure but potentially completely befuddling in it's extra complexity. One step forward for the tech department and two steps back for marketing.... "improvement" is too subjectively localized or put differently chaotic. If nothing else it appears to be extremely unprofessional/amateurish and makes many not take the OS very seriously. The problem is that the old model of chaos chaos chaos GLORIOUS chaos is antiquated and the two proprietary giants are only in bad repute for their arrogance... Linux in general has grown old enough to stop acting like a emo teenager with delusions of grand superiority.

Honestly it's frustrating because all the potential is locked up in short term thinking and lethargy. Yes Linux is now a good enough in general replacement for PC's and laptops but it's slow development meant it fell down when fast change was needed for capturing the new tablet and smartphone markets... it completely lost to Android which is free and TERRIBLE in many cases (especially some versions) so it cannot even claim to have been up against paid. And probably the biggest problem there was that no one could manage to prod enough devs to convert their x86 apps to arm while android apps (useless as most of them are) sprung up like weeds.
Instead of whining about it, do something about it. Pull the source code and write a better method, move to Windows...
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Re: Just say NO to Mint19

Post by rambo919 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:15 am

And dismissive baiting like that is it's own kind of problem comparative to reporting everything being fine even though you are inside a burning building and then hypocritically calling anyone critical of you a tin foil hatter.... not exactly an endearing trait. Even IF I had the capability of improving it myself that would not improve clearly systematic problems including many people treating it like a casual club activity where any serious members must be able to boast (i.e. perpetual mine is bigger than yours competitions) instead of a serious project.

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Re: Just say NO to Mint19

Post by catweazel » Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:18 am

rambo919 wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:15 am
.... not exactly an endearing trait.
I don't have any. Not a single one.
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Re: Just say NO to Mint19

Post by Moem » Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:24 am

catweazel wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:18 am
rambo919 wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:15 am
.... not exactly an endearing trait.
I don't have any. Not a single one.
Mod note:
That's fine and dandy, but you (generic you, not just Catweazel) will still need to stay within forum rules. That includes keeping things friendly. It does not include telling others that they are whining or should go back to Windows. So please, for the sake of your moderators' sanity, keep that in mind. Thanks!
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Re: Just say NO to Mint19

Post by DAMIEN1307 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:35 am

hi moem..."moderators sanity" ?...i always thought Insanity was the prerequisite in order to be a moderator to maintain some sort of order out of chaos...lol...DAMIEN
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Re: Just say NO to Mint19

Post by Pjotr » Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:04 am

rambo919 wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:03 am
Yes Linux is now a good enough in general replacement for PC's and laptops but it's slow development meant it fell down when fast change was needed for capturing the new tablet and smartphone markets... it completely lost to Android
Nonsense. Android *is* Linux. It has a Linux kernel.
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Re: Just say NO to Mint19

Post by gm10 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:02 am

Pjotr wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:04 am
rambo919 wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:03 am
Yes Linux is now a good enough in general replacement for PC's and laptops but it's slow development meant it fell down when fast change was needed for capturing the new tablet and smartphone markets... it completely lost to Android
Nonsense. Android *is* Linux. It has a Linux kernel.
His argument shows the power of marketing and presentation though, doesn't it? Android is just another Linux distro same as Ubuntu or Linux Mint, but because Google managed to hide the Linux core so well from the average user behind that GUI the (uninformed) consumer perceives it as something else.

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Re: Just say NO to Mint19

Post by Pjotr » Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:48 am

gm10 wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:02 am
His argument shows the power of marketing and presentation though, doesn't it? Android is just another Linux distro same as Ubuntu or Linux Mint, but because Google managed to hide the Linux core so well from the average user behind that GUI the (uninformed) consumer perceives it as something else.
Indeed so... :lol:

By the way: what strikes me in Android's Linux kernel requirements, is that it appears to stick to the upstream LTS kernels:
https://source.android.com/devices/arch ... l/releases
and:
https://source.android.com/devices/arch ... quirements

Unlike Ubuntu/Mint, which maintains its own LTS kernel series. Apparently the giant Android doesn't want to spend any costly dev time on that, whereas the (relative) dwarf Ubuntu does.

My guess is that hardware support has something to do with that: hardware manufacturers will, out of their own accord, make their smartphones and tablets compatible with Android. Whereas they won't make their other computing hardware compatible with desktop Linux. So only Android can afford the luxury of sticking to the upstream LTS kernels without losing relevance for modern hardware.
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Re: Just say NO to Mint19

Post by rambo919 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:52 am

Pjotr wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:04 am
Nonsense. Android *is* Linux. It has a Linux kernel.
OK let me rephrase, Android is an Java based (exclusionary?) form of Linux that separated itself so completely from the other forms that it could basically be called a Java OS running the Linux kernel..... which in effect makes it a non-Linux (almost anti-Linux) Linux and generally not considered to be Linux Proper with the kernel merely there for it's drivers. In effect it's more a locked down Franken-Linux that while technically belonging to the family is in practice a far cry from "just another distro".... just like BSD isn't really "Linux".

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Re: Just say NO to Mint19

Post by gm10 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:09 am

rambo919 wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:52 am
Pjotr wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:04 am
Nonsense. Android *is* Linux. It has a Linux kernel.
OK let me rephrase, Android is an Java based (exclusionary?) form of Linux that separated itself so completely from the other forms that it could basically be called a Java OS running the Linux kernel..... which in effect makes it a non-Linux (almost anti-Linux) Linux and generally not considered to be Linux Proper with the kernel merely there for it's drivers. In effect it's more a locked down Franken-Linux that while technically belonging to the family is in practice a far cry from "just another distro".... just like BSD isn't really "Linux".
Can I add my own "Nonsense" now? Linux is the kernel, that's what Linus Torvalds, the guy who created it and giving it the name, does. The desktop environment, which is what you are talking about, is separate from that - you can run Linux without one and it's still Linux. BSD is decades older than Linux and really has nothing to do with it other than the Unix heritage.
Last edited by gm10 on Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Just say NO to Mint19

Post by rambo919 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:44 am

That might have been the case a few decades ago but these days most consider "Linux" to be the general ecosystem (not the desktop) of which the kernel is only one part. Whether it's technically correct or not that is the general assumption.

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Re: Just say NO to Mint19

Post by Pjotr » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:47 am

rambo919 wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:44 am
That might have been the case a few decades ago but these days most consider "Linux" to be the general ecosystem (not the desktop) of which the kernel is only one part. Whether it's technically correct or not that is the general assumption.
Farfetched non-argument. Admitting that you were entirely wrong is too hard? :lol:
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Re: Just say NO to Mint19

Post by gm10 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:58 am

rambo919 wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:44 am
That might have been the case a few decades ago but these days most consider "Linux" to be the general ecosystem (not the desktop) of which the kernel is only one part. Whether it's technically correct or not that is the general assumption.
On my Android device I can open a terminal window and have many of the usual GNU core utilities available. I can run different shells, including the same bash shell that you know from Linux Mint. I can even run a full Debian environment on the device: https://wiki.debian.org/ChrootOnAndroid. I'm having trouble understanding what part of the "general ecosystem" you feel is missing to warrant calling this an anti-Linux. Anyway, let's just agree to disagree, I fear we're losing track of the topic of the thread.
Last edited by gm10 on Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Just say NO to Mint19

Post by DAMIEN1307 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:00 am

hi pjotr, hi rambo...in essence you are both correct...this is an argument that has gone on for a very long time now in the linux community...the article below explains both sides of the story...personally, i do not think there is a truly definitive answer to this...as the article explains both sides, you will see why you can both be correct...DAMIEN

ps...we all need to get back on topic...lol.

https://www.androidauthority.com/android-linux-784964/
ORDO AB CHAO

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Re: Just say NO to Mint19

Post by rambo919 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:03 am

No not a non-argument, a half-hearted defence perhaps.... I stand by my partially mis-speaking.

<<snip needless recursive ranting>> most think of an OS as "the collection of software that is the minimum for a functional (emphasis on functional) multitasking environment" and it's usually referred to as such in most text books.... the kernel is NOT that since by itself... it does absolutely nothing not even boot the machine.

EDIT: fine dropped

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