Will Linux Mint ever support wayland?

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KingTChoka
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Will Linux Mint ever support wayland?

Post by KingTChoka »

Wayland is just released in Ubuntu 21.04. Will LinuxMint follow anytime soon?
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Kadaitcha Man
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Re: Will LinuxMint ever support wayland?

Post by Kadaitcha Man »

KingTChoka wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:18 pm
Wayland is just released in Ubuntu 21.04. Will LinuxMint follow anytime soon?
'anytime soon' is subjective. The technically correct answer is both yes and no.

LM is based on LTS Ubuntu. Ubuntu 21.04 is not LTS. The work that Ubuntu do on 21.04 will end up in 22.04 LTS. Consequently LM will support Wayland as and when Ubuntu LTS does.
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rene
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Re: Will LinuxMint ever support wayland?

Post by rene »

As a footnote to the above reaction I'd not actually feel it inconceivable that Mint would stick with X.org for a little while longer than even Ubuntu due to Cinnamon. GTK is most definitely the vastly major part of Wayland support and Cinnamon would as such inherit that level of support automatically, but I can't say to personally be aware of how much still remains after that, even if perhaps only due to not using many GUI-tools and not being aware of how many of the e.g. GUI settngs-tools are Cinnamon-specific and how many are still basically GNOME.

Clement Lefebvre has up to now been seemingly a bit vocal at least about Wayland not being on their roadmap yet. Not something I'd personally feel is a good idea, don't get me wrong, but the generic Mint public would in the end not really care much anyway. "What's X.org?".
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Re: Will LinuxMint ever support wayland?

Post by Yfrwlf »

Xorg is insecure, so anyone concerned about security should be pushing for Wayland.

You can demonstrate some of that insecurity using this: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/User:Sakak ... nerability

If all running applications can spy on and collect the keystrokes sent to, and images of, all other running applications, that's not very secure!
rene
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Re: Will LinuxMint ever support wayland?

Post by rene »

Yes, well, the issue is/was that Wayland fixed such issues by removing ability to do that which was potentially insecure at all. I.e., copy-paste between applications was a problem for the longest time and although I believe that's mostly fixed now, copy-paste between native Wayland and XWayland applications (of which there will for the time being still have to be some, and certainly as installed by users themselves so as to not disturb their workflow) still does not work as far as I know.

As such asking users to simply please not install malware was and to a degree is a fairly reasonable alternative strategy for a distribution.
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Re: Will LinuxMint ever support wayland?

Post by Yfrwlf »

rene wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 11:41 am
Yes, well, the issue is/was that Wayland fixed such issues by removing ability to do that which was potentially insecure at all. I.e., copy-paste between applications was a problem for the longest time and although I believe that's mostly fixed now, copy-paste between native Wayland and XWayland applications (of which there will for the time being still have to be some, and certainly as installed by users themselves so as to not disturb their workflow) still does not work as far as I know.

As such asking users to simply please not install malware was and to a degree is a fairly reasonable alternative strategy for a distribution.
Seems like a straight-forward problem and solution: the Wayland clipboard is kept private at all times, and when any Wayland or Xorg application is selected, and the keystroke CTRL-V/X or middle mouse click is issued, Wayland copies the private clipboard's contents to that selected client (or grants access to).

But yes, hopefully the remaining issues will get worked out. I haven't tried Ubuntu 21.04 out yet but I'm curious to see what issues remain after a big distro like that moves to Wayland!
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Re: Will LinuxMint ever support wayland?

Post by rene »

Should also note that I haven't exactly been keeping tabs and for all know U21.04 may have fixed e.g. that clipboard thing already. I've in any case always hated X11's guts with a passion so would at least as a matter of principle cheer on any distribution dumping it.
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Re: Will LinuxMint ever support wayland?

Post by motoryzen »

Xorg is insecure, so anyone concerned about security should be pushing for Wayland.
Yes that might be a fact, but the fact remains that unless wayland's instability has been resolved, and it's safe bet it hasn't yet..otherwise the LM team involving Clem would be implementing it by default instead of xorg, Linux Mint users need a display server that actually works consistently and well.
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Re: Will LinuxMint ever support wayland?

Post by Yfrwlf »

motoryzen wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 12:45 pm
Xorg is insecure, so anyone concerned about security should be pushing for Wayland.
Yes that might be a fact, but the fact remains that unless wayland's instability has been resolved, and it's safe bet it hasn't yet..otherwise the LM team involving Clem would be implementing it by default instead of xorg, Linux Mint users need a display server that actually works consistently and well.
Ubuntu hasn't moved to Wayland until just now in version 21.04, and 22.04 LTS isn't going to be released until next year, and LM is based on LTS.

That seems like a much more likely reason why LM isn't on Wayland yet, but who knows for sure without asking them.
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Re: Will LinuxMint ever support wayland?

Post by rene »

Yfrwlf wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 1:06 pm
Ubuntu hasn't moved to Wayland until just now in version 21.04, and 22.04 LTS isn't going to be released until next year, and LM is based on LTS. That seems like a much more likely reason why LM isn't on Wayland yet, but who knows for sure without asking them.
I do! Or, well, let's give it very, very high probability; Mint sort of by definition of the project doesn't go very lowlevel. Not the same though in the reverse direction, even if only because Ubuntu will undoubtedly also still have X11 as an option that Mint can go sit on top of for a few releases.
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Re: Will LinuxMint ever support wayland?

Post by t42 »

Do you remember Mir and one paragraph stance on it? It's only one [short] word now.
-=t42=-
rene
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Re: Will Linux Mint ever support wayland?

Post by rene »

I once left Slackware when its thinking that newer isn't always better turned into thinking that conversely older always was. I expect I may be hopping on again if the Mint team tries to ever seriously defend X11 over Wayland with other than, say, "sorry, we're not quite ready yet" arguments.
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Re: Will Linux Mint ever support wayland?

Post by JosephM »

Ok. There seems to be a few misconceptions here. Starting with the original question. This isn't about Mint supporting Wayland. Wayland is implemented at a DE level. Not the distro level. So it's about your DE of choice having support for it. Currently none of the three DE's shipped by Mint have support. Cinnamon will get it at some point but we don't really control the other two. XFCE just gained Gtk3 support. How long do you think it will be before it has Wayland support, if ever? The fact is you can actually run Wayland on Mint right now by installing Gnome shell.
LM is based on LTS Ubuntu. Ubuntu 21.04 is not LTS. The work that Ubuntu do on 21.04 will end up in 22.04 LTS. Consequently LM will support Wayland as and when Ubuntu LTS does.
Actually this has nothing to do with it. Ubuntu main uses Gnome shell which has Wayland support. None of the other Ubuntu flavors (KDE maybe?) support or use Wayland.
GTK is most definitely the vastly major part of Wayland support and Cinnamon would as such inherit that level of support automatically,
This is not true. Partly because outside of the settings, Cinnamon uses very little Gtk. There seems to be a lack of understanding of what Wayland actually is. It's not something that you can simply swap out and replace X with. As an example, all those tools you have used for years to do things like screenshotting, screen recording, screen sharing, etc. are totally useless under Wayland. Each DE has to implement it's own DE specific support for these things. And that's just the start.

And let's not forget another very big one not even mentioned. Nvidia support. If you have Nvidia you cannot run Wayland at all. So it's useless by default to a large portion of the user base. Until that changes it isn't really even feasible from our point of view.
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Re: Will Linux Mint ever support wayland?

Post by rene »

JosephM wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 4:30 pm
GTK is most definitely the vastly major part of Wayland support and Cinnamon would as such inherit that level of support automatically,
This is not true. Partly because outside of the settings, Cinnamon uses very little Gtk.
Well, those settings and, let's say, any user-interface element those tools you mention put on the screen of course. But yes, otherwise mentioned being unaware of how much is left after it due to not using a lot of GUI in the first place. Point though is that once Ubuntu switches its default the main issues, including that Nvidia situation, will have been dealt with. At that point Mint's stance/progress wrt. Wayland determines as far as I am concerned how good an idea Cinnamon in fact still is given the size of the Mint/Cinnamon development team, and doubly now that Unity is not an Ubuntu-detractor anymore.

And yes, as said, I think that the generic Mint user really couldn't care less if you guys stick with X11 for a long time still but I would. There's a point where non-progress becomes regress, and sticking with the heap of obsolete bull that is X11 any longer than completely necessary is that point.
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Re: Will Linux Mint ever support wayland?

Post by JosephM »

Point though is that once Ubuntu switches its default the main issues, including that Nvidia situation, will have been dealt with.
Not sure why you say that. You know how they deal with it as default? You get booted into an X session if you have Nvidia.
At that point Mint's stance/progress wrt. Wayland determines as far as I am concerned how good an idea Cinnamon in fact still is given the size of the Mint/Cinnamon development team
I suppose you feel the same about every DE outside of Gnome shell and KDE. And I don't actually know exactly where KDE is at the moment. Those are the only two that I know of outside of Sway that have any real Wayland support.

And as noted above, if you really want Wayland you can install the same Gnome shell and Wayland session that Ubuntu uses in Mint.
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rene
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Re: Will Linux Mint ever support wayland?

Post by rene »

JosephM wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 11:09 pm
Not sure why you say that. You know how they deal with it as default? You get booted into an X session if you have Nvidia.
Personally, <shrug>. I've known for a long time now that Nvidia is a terrible choice for a Linux system and do not use their products. And more generally speaking I would say that it is a definite issue to allow that arrogant company to (further) stifle Linux in the way that you are now literally suggesting. After Ubuntu's choice will have determined what is feasible at least commercially in the Linux desktop context even if not technically, a this time collective middle finger from the entire Linux community is much more to my liking.

As to me having the option of installing GNOME-shell, well, yes, that was my point more or less: I'd personally use an Ubuntu install DVD to do so. Your distribution as currently perceived is for the largest part modern-yet-classic Cinnamon, only for much smaller part any Mint tool. And if Cinnamon ends up incompatible with Wayland for too long it will at the very least also end up being (even) less of an offered choice on other distributions and, just maybe, Mint itself ends up the new "Remember Those Days" distribution in reviews. If judging from the forum membership you're already not exactly the new kid in town any more. Maybe that's okay with the project; I clearly have no insights into its plans.
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Re: Will Linux Mint ever support wayland?

Post by Portreve »

Right now, I'm playing with Fedora 34, which includes pipewire and (as I understand it) Wayland.

I've been listening to a couple different GNU+Linux podcasts lately, and they've been discussing these matters. From what I have understood since Wayland first began being developed, there's so many things which have changed over the decades that I guess "interested parties" decided to start over instead of just trying to further update X.org. That makes sense to me, as long as it incorporates "lessons learned". And as for pipewire, it's fully up and running, and serves as something of a full-on multimedia infrastructure, handling video as well as audio functionality. If I understand correctly, it will replace Pulse Audio, and will supply functionality which — and I admit, I'm a bit confused on this point — will either eliminate the need for Jack, or give it a better environment to play in, and in any case will make it a lot easier for people who need Jack for its audio system functionality to make use of that range of functionality.

Hopefully, someone a lot more knowledgeable than I am at the moment will jump in here and do a better job describing and explaining all of this.

Incidentally... in any number of respects, it's inarguable that Gnome 3.x (and I really don't understand the significance of the term I keep hearing bandied about, Gnome 40) continues to mature. However, it strikes me that the further they go in the what I'll term "Gnome 3 UI design philosophy" direction, the less appropriate it is (in the sense of the overall metaphor it uses) for traditional computer systems, becoming instead very much a touch screen-suited GUI.

It's definitely not at all to my tastes whatsoever.
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rene
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Re: Will Linux Mint ever support wayland?

Post by rene »

Pipewire is in the end intended at least to replace both Pulseaudio and JACK. Being from the naked ALSA-era myself, what I personally tend to care for most is its ability to go take a hike though. Although, admittedly, mostly since Pulseaudio's lousy latency issues have always kept me being a naked ALSA-person (and, yes, that hyphen is not between "naked" and "ALSA" there...)

Yes, the GNOME3 UI-paradigm is and always has been a disaster. Since GNOME 3.8 there's a more or less first-class-citizen "classic" mode though. Believe that you on Fedora install it with yum install gnome-classic-session and logout and back into said classic session to have things significantly better. Up to now only minor experience with it myself.
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Re: Will Linux Mint ever support wayland?

Post by Portreve »

rene wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 3:13 pm
Pipewire is in the end intended at least to replace both Pulseaudio and JACK. Being from the naked ALSA-era myself, what I personally tend to care for most is its ability to go take a hike though. Although, admittedly, mostly since Pulseaudio's lousy latency issues have always kept me being a naked ALSA-person (and, yes, that hyphen is not between "naked" and "ALSA" there...)

Yes, the GNOME3 UI-paradigm is and always has been a disaster. Since GNOME 3.8 there's a more or less first-class-citizen "classic" mode though. Believe that you on Fedora install it with yum install gnome-classic-session and logout and back into said classic session to have things significantly better. Up to now only minor experience with it myself.
Oh, ok. That's good knowledge.

I tried the classic session install, but it indicated it was already installed. Unfortunately, I could find no way to change my session type, so...

I was also having problems with it periodically losing my wifi connection. I googled the crap out of that but couldn't find anything which was the actual problem I had, or which led to an actionable solution. Being the increasingly impatient person I've become, I said¹ aah-ooh-gah! it, and then replaced it with LM 20.0.

I had started off the new M.2 drive with a full installation of Windows 10. It took easily four hours just to install Win10 and then install all the updates, without having installed any other software. That's simply ridiculous.

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