Why was MATE created?

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TheLastStud
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Why was MATE created?

Postby TheLastStud » Sat Apr 28, 2012 4:36 am

The MATE desktop environment was created to retain the traditional desktop paradigm, in response to Unity and Gnome Shell, right? A large proportion of linux users wanted to stick with the panel approach for task management, application launching, etc. What's attracted the most negative response from the community is the change in the interface. However, Gnome is still providing an alternative panel session (gnome-session-fallback) so why create MATE ? Why not just fork Gnome Panel and provide it as another session, like Cinnamon, while using the updated Gnome stack? I mean, it looks to me like an enormous duplication of effort. AFAIK the problem people had was not with the applications being updated, but with the new desktop UI being forced on them...

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Re: Why was MATE created?

Postby xenopeek » Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:11 am

Not entirely; it is Cinnamon that was created to offer the traditional desktop paradigm, using modern technology as offered by Gnome 3 and Gtk+ 3.

MATE in fact is a fork of Gnome 2 (a copy of the code of Gnome 2, rebranded as "MATE"). The Gnome developers are no longer supporting Gnome 2 development or maintenance, and have put all their effort on Gnome 3. Effectively they declared Gnome 2 to be dead, and want users of Gnome 2 to move to Gnome 3 (at least, with no support on Gnome 2 this is the result). A lot of users were not happy with this and wanted to continue to use Gnome 2. Some of those users were developers, and they have started the MATE project. MATE offers users of Gnome 2, that don't want to move to Gnome 3, a way to continue using Gnome 2 albeit under a different name.

The Linux Mint developers early on saw the value of MATE for Linux Mint users, a lot of which enjoy Gnome 2, so they worked with the MATE developers to offer MATE as part of Linux Mint.

If you enjoyed Gnome 2 above all else, you can continue to enjoy it with MATE and rest assured that there is a team working on improving it (new features & bugfixes). Especially for somewhat older machines, MATE runs smoother that Gnome 3.
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Re: Why was MATE created?

Postby TheLastStud » Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:55 am

Vincent Vermeulen wrote:Not entirely; it is Cinnamon that was created to offer the traditional desktop paradigm, using modern technology as offered by Gnome 3 and Gtk+ 3.

MATE in fact is a fork of Gnome 2 (a copy of the code of Gnome 2, rebranded as "MATE"). The Gnome developers are no longer supporting Gnome 2 development or maintenance, and have put all their effort on Gnome 3. Effectively they declared Gnome 2 to be dead, and want users of Gnome 2 to move to Gnome 3 (at least, with no support on Gnome 2 this is the result). A lot of users were not happy with this and wanted to continue to use Gnome 2. Some of those users were developers, and they have started the MATE project. MATE offers users of Gnome 2, that don't want to move to Gnome 3, a way to continue using Gnome 2 albeit under a different name.

The Linux Mint developers early on saw the value of MATE for Linux Mint users, a lot of which enjoy Gnome 2, so they worked with the MATE developers to offer MATE as part of Linux Mint.

If you enjoyed Gnome 2 above all else, you can continue to enjoy it with MATE and rest assured that there is a team working on improving it (new features & bugfixes). Especially for somewhat older machines, MATE runs smoother that Gnome 3.


so what you're saying is that there are other reasons to use Gnome 2 over Gnome 3, aside from the Panel interface?

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Re: Why was MATE created?

Postby tdockery97 » Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:11 am

Yes, such as the fact that Gnome 3's gnome-fallback is not and has never been intended to be a permanent option. The intention of the Gnome 3 developers is to eventually completely discontinue the fallback mode. MATE on the other hand will continue to be actively developed and improved over time. This is the reason many of us have chosen to use the MATE desktop environment.
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Re: Why was MATE created?

Postby grizzler » Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:09 am

tdockery97 wrote:Yes, such as the fact that Gnome 3's gnome-fallback is not and has never been intended to be a permanent option.

Actually it was, originally, according to the Gnome developper who ported the Panel to Gnome 3 (see http://www.vuntz.net/journal/post/2011/ ... e-panel%21). Fallback mode was supposed to exist as long as Gnome 3. However, later developments seem to indicate it may be dropped after all.

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Re: Why was MATE created?

Postby cwwgateway » Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:31 pm

so what you're saying is that there are other reasons to use Gnome 2 over Gnome 3, aside from the Panel interface?

Yes. For example, applets that existed with gnome 2 aren't compatible with the fallback mode. MATE is also free from regressions in GTK 3 and Gnome Shell (which Cinnamon and gnome-panel face). For example, if gnome shell and GTK were to go all out tablet, and therefore have all apps look "tablety," MATE would still be good old gnome 2, whereas Cinnamon would probably fork some components to retain the normal, non-tablet look. Gnome-panel would also inherit these problems. MATE would be safe with good old GTK 2.
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Re: Why was MATE created?

Postby sunewbie » Fri May 04, 2012 9:47 am

What if most devs of popular apps use / shift to Gtk+ 3 libs

What will happen to MATE in this case, as currently MATE works with Gtk+ 2 (AFAIK) ?

XFCE and LXDE both are also using Gtk+ 2, but they will most probably shift to Gtk+ 3 in year end.

I am a bit confused.

P.S. I am an end user, so please educate me.

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Re: Why was MATE created?

Postby Lumikki » Sat May 05, 2012 3:45 am

In my opinion there was no reason to create Mate. Because Mate is connected Gnone 2 what is older version of Gnome. Anyone who doesn't want to use Gnome 3 for any reason, can use older version of the Linux Mint where is Gnome 2. I mean sooner or later people have to give up Gnome 2 and MATE, because there is no future for it. So, why waste time to MATE, when there is no future for it.
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Re: Why was MATE created?

Postby grizzler » Sat May 05, 2012 7:23 am

You really have no idea what the word 'fork' means in this context, do you?

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Re: Why was MATE created?

Postby Lumikki » Sat May 05, 2012 7:36 am

grizzler wrote:You really have no idea what the word 'fork' means in this context, do you?

If you ask from me. In Linux Mint the Mate has done so that gnome 2 files have been renamed so that MATE DE can run over the Gnome 2 in same OS where is also Gnome 3 files.
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Re: Why was MATE created?

Postby sunewbie » Sat May 05, 2012 7:58 am

grizzler wrote:You really have no idea what the word 'fork' means in this context, do you?


Please can you explain 'fork' and 'respin' and ... 'derivates'

Thanks
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Re: Why was MATE created?

Postby cwwgateway » Sat May 05, 2012 4:15 pm

Lumikki wrote:In my opinion there was no reason to create Mate. Because Mate is connected Gnone 2 what is older version of Gnome. Anyone who doesn't want to use Gnome 3 for any reason, can use older version of the Linux Mint where is Gnome 2. I mean sooner or later people have to give up Gnome 2 and MATE, because there is no future for it. So, why waste time to MATE, when there is no future for it.

I think that MATE will serve an important purpose for a few years because the old Mints will stop being supported (Mint 11 will lose support in October 2012 and Mint 9 will lose support in April 2013) and Gnome 3 and Cinnamon (and Unity) haven't matured to the point that Gnome 2 did. MATE is also important for this LTS release (Mint 13) because it will be supported for 5 years, meaning you can use gnome 2, or at least something that's almost Gnome 2, for 5 years. However, maybe in 2 or 3 years, Cinnamon, Gnome Shell, and Unity will have advanced to the point where they are all very usable and mature. At that point, MATE, unless it gets ported to GTK 3, will be so outdated that it will be hard to use because most of the apps have gone to GTK 3 and it won't support new technologies. I see MATE as a very important fix for the short term. The MATE (and mint) devs could prove me wrong, though, and it could stay (somehow?) up to date over the long term.
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Re: Why was MATE created?

Postby cwwgateway » Sat May 05, 2012 4:24 pm

@sunewbie
Fork is basically to copy something and change it. Cinnamon, for example, copied Gnome Shell's code and the changed it. I'm with you in that I have no idea about the GTK 2 vs. GTK 3 thing. I don't know how MATE would be updated.

Respin is to basically make an iso image that is redone off of another iso image (which is the "re" part). Fedora respins are distros that re spin or re "make" the Fedora iso with different apps, desktop environments, or other different things. Also, Mint respins the LMDE iso every 6 months.

Derivative is something that derives from something (derive:Obtain something from (a specified source); base a concept on a logical extension or modification of (another concept)). Mint is a derivative of Ubuntu, meaning it derives its base from ubuntu. Ubuntu is a derivative of Debian.

I hope this helps, and I'm still fuzzy on the "fork" definition in regards to MATE and continuity.
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Re: Why was MATE created?

Postby xenopeek » Sat May 05, 2012 5:15 pm

The MATE website has a bit from Perberos about Gtk3: http://wiki.mate-desktop.org/about_gtk3
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Re: Why was MATE created?

Postby sunewbie » Sun May 06, 2012 3:25 am

cwwgateway wrote:@sunewbie
Fork is basically to copy something and change it. Cinnamon, for example, copied Gnome Shell's code and the changed it. I'm with you in that I have no idea about the GTK 2 vs. GTK 3 thing. I don't know how MATE would be updated.

Respin is to basically make an iso image that is redone off of another iso image (which is the "re" part). Fedora respins are distros that re spin or re "make" the Fedora iso with different apps, desktop environments, or other different things. Also, Mint respins the LMDE iso every 6 months.

Derivative is something that derives from something (derive:Obtain something from (a specified source); base a concept on a logical extension or modification of (another concept)). Mint is a derivative of Ubuntu, meaning it derives its base from ubuntu. Ubuntu is a derivative of Debian.

I hope this helps, and I'm still fuzzy on the "fork" definition in regards to MATE and continuity.


Hi

Thanks for explanation.

@Vincent

Thanks for the link. I think, this will not be an easy task, as app devs should make another version to support MATE UI.

Am I right?
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Re: Why was MATE created?

Postby xenopeek » Sun May 06, 2012 4:41 am

Its the same as XFCE and LXDE teams have to do; visit all the applications that make up their desktop environment and convert from Gtk+ 2 to Gtk+ 3. I don't know what is involved in the conversion, but I guess it is a lot of work (tedious at the least; doing it for each application).
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Re: Why was MATE created?

Postby sunewbie » Sun May 06, 2012 10:37 am

so afterall, they have to be with the world, and sooner or later have to adapt Gtk+ 3 :)
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