Is Mint 17.1 Cinnamon & KDE supposed to be stable or --

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The Pool Man
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Is Mint 17.1 Cinnamon & KDE supposed to be stable or --

Post by The Pool Man » Sat Dec 27, 2014 7:26 pm

-- or a work in progress?

I don't mean to slur, but compared to Elementary OS Freya (a beta) I'm finding Cinnamon to be very bumpy. As well as KDE Mint, even though it's bumpy in different ways.

CINNAMON BUMPS (which may be third party software issues so far)

1. When I open system settings, it appears in my Docky. Yay. (I'm a visitor from the land of OS X and really care more about Docky than the panel.) So when I try to pin system settings to Docky, it instead pins the bluetooth setting.

2. I installed Calligra. With very little use the icons on the many app buttons have vaporized, rendering the apps unusable. I terminal uninstalled and reinstalled. It's still broken. In the Mac world this means a preferences file is still lingering. In Linux? Haven't a clue.

3. In comparison to KDE system preferences, Cinnamon is seriously lacking. I'm stunned that the KDE system preferences aren't standard mint-wide. I feel so crippled trying to find and change things in Cinndy.

KDE BUMPS

1. One reason I switched to Cinnamon was the mind-bendingly FRUSTRATING 30 second timer at log off. I searched the web and couldn't find a way to turn it off. In forums here peeps questioned that it even existed. It's a deal-breaker, friends. Logging off in Cinndy is like turning off a switch, but in KDE, it's like painting a wall. UPDATE: After spending time in Cinn I tried KDE all over again. This issue was gone. But I was using a different theme last time. I think the theme was the issue, as in, the person who created it didn't realize it broke the log off window.

2. The KDE launcher is... urm... acceptable but kind of Windows bumpy. Redmond good-enough. I appreciate all it's trying to do but it lacks the Cinnamon elegance. I can live, mind you, because I use Docky and have the panel on Auto-hide anyway, but still --- needs work. UPDATE: After spending time in Cinn I discovered Cairo Dock. For this Mac user it allows me to render the launcer almost irrelevant, since I can launch apps within my dock.

3. There was on other KDE thing that eludes me at the moment. I'm using Virtualbox and I think KDE had trouble remembering to go fullscreen at bootup. Cinnamon doesn't. It just works. UPDATE: Trying KDE again this issue comes and goes. And as someone below reminded me: KDE is an RC.

Anyway, is 17.1 expected to be this way because of that .1? Will it .2 or .3 one of these days/weeks/months and iron out most issues? I ask because I'm a Linux newbie and don't wish to presume.
Last edited by The Pool Man on Fri Jan 02, 2015 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is Mint 17.1 Cinnamon & KDE supposed to be stable or --

Post by karlchen » Sat Dec 27, 2014 9:01 pm

Hello, the Pool Man.

Thank you very much for your friendly Mint bashing. :roll:
As bashing is different from support requests your thread has been moved to "Chat about Linux Mint".

About the 2 questions asked in your title/post:
Linux Mint 17.1 Cinnamon desktop is a stable release. Cf. here e.g.: Linux Mint 17.1 “Rebecca” Cinnamon released!, also to be found by having a peek in the Releases & Announcements sub-forum.
Linux Mint 17.1 KDE desktop is currently a release candidate, not a stable release, yet. Cf. e.g. here: Linux Mint 17.1 “Rebecca” KDE RC released!, also to be found by having a peek in the Releases & Announcements sub-forum.

Regards,
Karl
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Re: Is Mint 17.1 Cinnamon & KDE supposed to be stable or --

Post by The Pool Man » Sun Dec 28, 2014 1:37 am

Ha! I moved this post once myself and so it's getting a nice tour of your site. :-)

Sorry if it came off as bashing. Honest. There's so much amazing going on these were merely picky things. I just felt eOS was a smoother experience overall. What's funny is I want Mint to be as smooth because I irrationally want to prefer it.

RC! Release Candidate. I knew that once but then forgot. Cool.

And I found a real amazing fix to my Docky isse. One that not only fixed my issue but had 'dream features' as well. Cairo Dock. :D

Dream features include dropping the Mint logo in the dock and having it act as a launcher. Two birds, one stone. Also Cairo offers a power on/off/restart button --IN THE DOCK -- which virtually eliminates the need for the panel entirely. I love it.

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Re: Is Mint 17.1 Cinnamon & KDE supposed to be stable or --

Post by Jedinovice » Sun Dec 28, 2014 6:49 am

I can't speak for Cinnamon as I don't use it but in regards to KDE I think you're missing a couple of things.

In relation to shutdown, I have found KDE slower compred to other GUI's in logon and logoff but I haven't heard of 30 seconds... and I am using a c50 which clocks in slower than an Atom n455! I wonder if you have a hardware issue confusing KDE, I dunno.

But one thing that will slow KDE down DRAMATICALLY is desktop effects. It is always best to turn them off. Most people are not aware oft his feature and deride KDE for beng too flashy and too slow. But if you go into system settings (love the fact everything is in one place, personally) enter 'Destop effects' and just turn everything off and restart - you do need to restart - then you will find KDE flies! That may be the issue with logging on and off. I do not know your hardware but unless you have a storming graphics card and/or high end CPU desktop will make everything crawl including logging off.

Are you aware that you can change the KDE menu? I agree that the initial 'multi-tab' start menu is confusing and fiddly. But you can right click on the starter and select 'Classic menu' you get a much simpler menu which I find works brilliantly. KDE lets you change anything!

I am not a fan of dockers myself, but clearly you are. Well, a man's desktop is his castle. But... have you checked out KDE's keyboard shortcuts? In system settings- shortuts and gesures, you can easily define keyboard shortcuts for your favourite apps and folders.

I want to start up Libreoffice writer - I press 'Windows+w.'
I want the calculator - I press 'windows+c'
I want to start up screen capture - I press 'shift+prt sc'
I want to start GIMP - I press 'windows+9' - ZX81/Spectrum users will understand.

To my mind this beats minimising windows an apps to find an icon to click on my draggng the mouse. Keyboard shortcuts is THE fastest way to start things. I understand user defined keyboard shortcuts are available in Cinnamon, Mate and even LXDE - though with LXDE you have to edit a text file. Hmmm. KDE makes shortcuts very eay to start up. You can even do it by editing apps in the starter menu - right click and 'edit applications.' But system settings is more versatile.

User defined keyboard shortcuts is not something either Windows or OSX allow so this is unique to Linux. It also means you will never have used it before. Try it and see if you like it. I hate using WIndows and the start menu now. And that's for WIndows 7. I won't go near 8 but everybody I knows avoids it anyway.

But if a docker is key for your operation then KDE is probably not the GUI for you. It's more about menus and shortcuts. Pear Linux is something of an Apple OS clone and sports a GUI that revolves around the docker and is said to be very good. You can install E17 in mint from the respositories as well. A lot of Mint users install Mate (say) at start up and the install LXDE and use that GUI.

Linux is choice.
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Re: Is Mint 17.1 Cinnamon & KDE supposed to be stable or --

Post by karlchen » Sun Dec 28, 2014 10:03 am

Hello, the Pool Man.

Assuming that you did not really mean to do a little Mint bashing just for bashing's sake, but that actually you wanted to report problems which you had experienced with
+ Linux Mint 17.1 Cinnamon
+ Linux Mint 17.1 KDE (RC)
it would have been wiser to create a separate thread for each problem.
The reason is pretty simple:
If there are several unrelated issues in a single thread, then all participants, including you as the thread starter, will sooner or later fail to keep track which problem someone is replying to. It is pretty likely to end in a confusing mess.

Cheers,
Karl
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Re: Is Mint 17.1 Cinnamon & KDE supposed to be stable or --

Post by The Pool Man » Sun Dec 28, 2014 3:29 pm

Jedinovice wrote:I can't speak for Cinnamon as I don't use it but in regards to KDE I think you're missing a couple of things..
I'm such a noob I'm absolutely positive I'm missing many things. :oops:

1. Regarding KDE shutdowns, let me be absolutely clear: this isn't a figurative speed issue. What's wrong is the system defaults to a timed log-out for 30 seconds. It says 'this computer will shutdown in 30 seconds' and a clock starts ticking. In Mac OS X you can OKAY the shutdown and it simply shuts down. In Mint it MAKES YOU WAIT 30 SECONDS no matter what. Despite the countless (and admirable) controls in the system preferences, I couldn't find the 'control' that turns off this behavior. I Googled this and others have the same issue.

I don't know if it's a VirtualBox thing.

2. Thanks for the heads-up on keyboard short cuts. I had noticed this and thought it would be fun. The problem is I'm running Mint in VBox within an OS X host -- and those OS X keyboard short cuts still work. Once I purchase my first PC (likely a Lenovo laptop) and actually install Mint, then I will start to play with shortcuts. It will likely be to make sure they are very similar to OS X shortcuts I know second nature. Old dog, new tricks. :wink:

And I'm very attached to the dock concept. One reason why every computer user should HATE docks is that most people leave them on the bottom of their screens. In my opinion they are in the way there, since most screens have plenty of side real estate but little up and down room. Onee moved to the side (I like the left), it's out of the way yet present. It's very easy to find favorite apps (once configured) and requires memorizing nothing. Thanks to Cairo dock (unlike Mac OS X) I can even add a power button in the dock, as well as do other fun things Linux offers. But thanks for explaining your method from you castle.

I thought I heard Pear OS was over. I kind of prefer Elementary OS in that regard. But discovering Cairo Dock was fascinating because most of what I need from an OS turns out to be dock related. I really really dislike Windows panels. I find it comical to watch Redmond keep changing their Windows 10 panel when Linux already offers better stronger paradigms. Dare I say if programs were all platform unisexual -- Windows would have been history over 10 years ago.

Thanks for feedback.

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Re: Is Mint 17.1 Cinnamon & KDE supposed to be stable or --

Post by The Pool Man » Sun Dec 28, 2014 3:32 pm

karlchen wrote:it would have been wiser to create a separate thread for each problem.
I hear you Karl and will abide by this notion in the future, but I was actually only asking one question -- is 17.1 solid or still a little buggy, as in, should I wait for 17.2 or later. I was watching a YouTube Linux reviewer talking about Mint and he was stunned to find a major bug in a LTS offering. Sure, all software is loaded with bugs, but it must have been something kinda blatant for such an experienced Linux user to get vocal about it.

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Re: Is Mint 17.1 Cinnamon & KDE supposed to be stable or --

Post by all41 » Sun Dec 28, 2014 3:58 pm

Mint it MAKES YOU WAIT 30 SECONDS no matter what.
No
KDE full shutdown in 3-4 seconds.

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Re: Is Mint 17.1 Cinnamon & KDE supposed to be stable or --

Post by The Pool Man » Sun Dec 28, 2014 5:56 pm

all41 wrote:
Mint it MAKES YOU WAIT 30 SECONDS no matter what.
No
KDE full shutdown in 3-4 seconds.
I've installed KDE in two different VBoxes. The 'shutdown now' button doesn't work. It makes you wait the 30 seconds.

Was that clear?

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Re: Is Mint 17.1 Cinnamon & KDE supposed to be stable or --

Post by all41 » Sun Dec 28, 2014 6:20 pm

crystal. so it must be vb related.

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Re: Is Mint 17.1 Cinnamon & KDE supposed to be stable or --

Post by colyn » Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:53 pm

The Pool Man wrote: 1. One reason I switched to Cinnamon was the mind-bendingly FRUSTRATING 30 second timer at log off.
I'm a long time KDE user and I have never encountered 30 second shutdowns..more like 10-15 seconds..
The Pool Man wrote:The KDE launcher is... urm... acceptable but kind of Windows bumpy. Redmond good-enough
Smooth as silk for me..
The Pool Man wrote:I'm using Virtualbox and I think KDE had trouble remembering to go fullscreen at bootup.
Mine always goes full screen on startup. Never had this issue before.

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Re: Is Mint 17.1 Cinnamon & KDE supposed to be stable or --

Post by Jedinovice » Mon Dec 29, 2014 7:08 am

The Pool Man wrote:
Jedinovice wrote:I can't speak for Cinnamon as I don't use it but in regards to KDE I think you're missing a couple of things..
I'm such a noob I'm absolutely positive I'm missing many things. :oops:
Understood. We were all beginners once. But understand that Cinnamon and KDE are just not going to recreate the Mac GUI. They are not designed that way. Other GUIs will including E17 and, arguably, XFCE. Trying to crowbar, say KDE, to be more like a Mac is rather defeating the purpose of the GUI which was to take the original WIndows 95 interface and develop it organically - unike Microsoft who keep having to 'revolutise' things and it goes wrong. See Vista, ME, Metro... Hell, I even hated the IE intergration of Windows 98 which Microsoft were, eventually, forced to yank.
1. Regarding KDE shutdowns, let me be absolutely clear: this isn't a figurative speed issue. What's wrong is the system defaults to a timed log-out for 30 seconds. It says 'this computer will shutdown in 30 seconds' and a clock starts ticking. In Mac OS X you can OKAY the shutdown and it simply shuts down. In Mint it MAKES YOU WAIT 30 SECONDS no matter what. Despite the countless (and admirable) controls in the system preferences, I couldn't find the 'control' that turns off this behavior. I Googled this and others have the same issue.

I don't know if it's a VirtualBox thing.
Er, normally if you press 'Enter' the laptop will start shutdown immediately on that dialogue box. That or click 'shutdown' I did have troubles with tests with Mint 12 KDE where the 'enter' accept would not work but the mouse and click would. And that was with 12!

If enter doesn't shutdown the laptop then I assume it is a virtualbox problem as it just doesn't happen in real life. I have no troubles with shutdown and I am runnning Mint KDE 17.0 on a c50! That's slower than a single core atom n455! I don't have the problem with the said atom nor a new n2920 'celeron' machine.

I am guessing virtualbox is having trouble with handing input from the user at the point of shutdown. It is not a feature of Mint KDE persay at all.
2. Thanks for the heads-up on keyboard short cuts. I had noticed this and thought it would be fun. The problem is I'm running Mint in VBox within an OS X host -- and those OS X keyboard short cuts still work. Once I purchase my first PC (likely a Lenovo laptop) and actually install Mint, then I will start to play with shortcuts. It will likely be to make sure they are very similar to OS X shortcuts I know second nature. Old dog, new tricks. :wink:
Sure. It is fun! I suggest you might want to try installing Linux, whatever varient, on some legacy device and trial it in reality. I do not think virtualbox is doing you any favours here. But note, also, that the whole point of keyboard shortcuts is not to emulate the Mac but to add functionality. The Mac does not allow for you start up an app from a keystroke. That's the difference between the MacOS and Cinnamon and KDE. KDE lets you set up your own keyboard shortcuts for your own funtionality. That's quite different to emulating MacOS keyboard shortcuts. That also means you can trial without touching the MacOS keyboard shortcuts.
And I'm very attached to the dock concept. One reason why every computer user should HATE docks is that most people leave them on the bottom of their screens. In my opinion they are in the way there, since most screens have plenty of side real estate but little up and down room. Onee moved to the side (I like the left), it's out of the way yet present. It's very easy to find favorite apps (once configured) and requires memorizing nothing. Thanks to Cairo dock (unlike Mac OS X) I can even add a power button in the dock, as well as do other fun things Linux offers. But thanks for explaining your method from you castle.
OK, but if docking is a non-negociable then why focus on KDE or Cinnamon? These GUIs are not based on the MacOS interface which sounds very much as if that is what you are looking for. Mint, by default anyway, does not cut that way.
Sounds to me like you want a MacOS style variant GUI. There are plenty. Heck, while NOT MacOS in style or nature, Unity lives and dies by the dockset to the left hand side of the screen and is touch screen friendly. (I hate it but I hate touchscreen so...)

ElementaryOS does not include user defined keyboard shortcuts by default but it seems you can install 'Elementary-tweaks' to do the job.
I thought I heard Pear OS was over. I kind of prefer Elementary OS in that regard. But discovering Cairo Dock was fascinating because most of what I need from an OS turns out to be dock related. I really really dislike Windows panels. I find it comical to watch Redmond keep changing their Windows 10 panel when Linux already offers better stronger paradigms. Dare I say if programs were all platform unisexual -- Windows would have been history over 10 years ago.
You're right about Pear Linux. I actually didn't know at the time of posting. Yeah Elementary seems to be the up and coming replacement in that regard. I do not follow why you are chasing Cinnamon or KDE if your preferred mode of operation is AppleOS stye with docks. Me I can't stand the MacOS or docks but, as I say, to each their own. Result: I steer clear of the likes of ElementaryOS. It would be crazy for me to focus on a Linux variant that does not work the way I want and the great thing about Linux is that you *can* choose a varient that does work the way you want. I do not see, therefore, why you are fighting with the likes of KDE when is not just meant to work like a Mac and you want a Mac style UI. I'm kind of confused!

From what it seems you are trying to do I think Mint and Cinnamon are the wrong starting point. It's fine to want a Mac syle UI - go for it, I say! But why not start with Elementary - especially if you are trialing with virtualbox, and adapting that to your needs? KDE especially is based on the Windows 95 interface and is surely *not* what you are looking for? Besides, the same software will run on both KDE and Elementary so why struggle with something that does not match your key requrements from the start? I knew I wanted the WIndows 9x+ experience and jumped straight to KDE 4 and never looked back but I knew what I wanted and went for it.

Go Elementary, I suggest! Make it easy on yourself! :mrgreen:

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Re: Is Mint 17.1 Cinnamon & KDE supposed to be stable or --

Post by The Pool Man » Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:01 pm

Hi Jedinovice,

Thanks for offering a take on the big picture as you see it. As a hyper-newbie it helps to hear a take on what's what from a Linux person. This loooooong response is to offer my what's what from an Mac/Agnostic person's point of view.

Firstly, we live in a world of camps. Mac vs. PC. PC vs. Linux. Android vs iOS. Ubuntu vs. Mint. Mint Cinnamon vs Mint KDE even. It's kind of hilarious when you stand all the way back and look at it.

I've been a Mac person since 1986. I've actively avoided PCs. Windows mainly. I have no issues with PCs except that they all come with Windows and have no reasonable way to install OS X. (Yes, I know about Hackintosh, but I'm not impressed by how 'easy' it is.)

What's my beef with Windows? It can't be the big 'evil' corporation thing -- because Apple is one too. I do hold decades old contempt at moves MS made against people like me. I'm old enough to remember that when Star Trek first had an official site on the web, Mac users were out of luck. Not because Star Trek had anything against us but because MS forced their hand this way via IE. You like Trek? You better be on a PC. They did the same thing with classic arcade games. Not on a PC? Too bad for you. Simple moves like this, as well as many famous anti-trust moves, made me resent MS enough to avoid them at all costs.

This means I'm not an Apple fanatic, as we're labeled. I'm a MShater. There's a difference. You don't think I'd love to easily slap OS X onto a Lenovo? THINK AGAIN. :wink: So I'm not the least bit unhappy with OS X. It's Apple's forced higher tier hardware prices I resent.

Before I proceed I've finally been playing with Windows. 8.1 to be precise. Now I know many PC types would cry foul and say, wait, so now you're judging Windows on of its most notorious missteps. No fair. I'm sorry, but it's totally fair.

Why?

1a. Windows has DOMINATED the desktop/laptop world FOREVER at this point. Consider all the money that goes towards operating systems, okay? I can't tell you what it exactly is but the break down is something like %90 goes to Windows, %9 goes to Mac, and %1 goes to Linux. That's being generous to Mac and Linux but what do I really know. Anyway: with at least %90 of the money going to Windows --

1b. -- why are they constantly playing catch up? What I've read about Windows 10 is pure Heinz. OOooh-- multiple desktop windows. The Mint I'm typing this from already has it and my Macs had it over seven YEARS ago.

An ugly truth that none of us want to face: if MS actually liked computing and wanted the user to be the happiest person on the planet -- Mac OS X and all of Linux wouldn't exist. Right? There's nothing that special that OS X and Linux* are doing. Special in comparison to Windows, yeah, but nothing Windows couldn't do if they decided to simply kick one of their OS's out of the park. Instead of in the teeth of Windows users. (*Yes, there's a ton of things Linux is doing that's incredibly special, but again, that's in comparison to Windows.)

So it's fair to ask why Windows 8.1 doesn't rule... considering all the money MS has to make it potentially rule.

2. I've heard many PC users finally wake up from their stupor and face the fact that MS doesn't seem to have a clue. The Metro apps kicked them hard in the head. To call that a bone-headed launch is an insult to boneheads. But just because those choices were... disastrous... doesn't mean I can't be open minded enough to 'fix' them. I presumed someone on the planet had created a classic shell for 8.1, and sure enough: there it was. Yet another reason to be a MSHater: MS should have produced this one in WEEKS. Bone-headed to the power of infinity. So my point here is that I've adapted 8.1 to work more OS 'normal' and I'm judging it that way. And still think it's a horrific piece of doggie doo. Why?

3. Go to Cnet and check the ten best free apps for Windows. Most of them are viral, malware, or performance 'speeding up' related. That's not what you get in OS X or Linux. You get cool free apps. These boneheads? Fixing a system that is both dangerous to use and slow. Not an opinion. A fact.

That reasoning is why I find Windows unacceptable. Now I know, I know, all the specialty software in the world is already on Windows. Not that I use any of them. And there's the entire PC gaming world, which once again, is already on this stinking pile of OS dung. But again, I'm not that world at all. You reach a ripe age and realize every minute you play Crossy Road is a minute you didn't get to something better. Like have a donut. :P

So this is my personal big picture I wanted to share with you. How this Mac user found his way to Linux. Not 'switched' to Linux but visiting and staying in the Linux world. From this perspective I can now share thoughts in response to your comments.

"But understand that Cinnamon and KDE are just not going to recreate the Mac GUI. They are not designed that way."

You presume I'm in a Mac Fanatic camp. I am not. Just because I see ways to make Linux look nearly identical to OS X doesn't mean I'm using that famous picture of Yosemite my desktop pic in Linux. Please. I don't even do it on my Yosemite Mac, okay?
Yosemite free desktop with Mint visiting in VBox
Yosemite free desktop with Mint visiting in VBox
"Trying to crowbar, say KDE, to be more like a Mac is rather defeating the purpose of the GUI."

I don't serve the purposes of operating systems or GUIs. The ideal operating system or GUI serves me. This is something Mac kinda gets and Windows hasn't a damn clue about. And I'm not saying this in some selfish way. I believe all GUIs should serve all users -- and not the other way around.

What makes Linux incredible (and your comment ironic) is that Linux gets this. By ironic I mean you don't hear yourself. A Linux option called Cairo dock is offered to Linux. Don't like one of the countless desktops offered in Linux? Wish to augment. Download and install. What you're labeling as crowbaring is, in fact, a Linux selling point. If Linux didn't get it right, Linux will find a way to get it right.

You may not know this but Mac users who used Mavericks had to put up with nearly 10 months of a hard to look at dock. Some bonehead at Apple (yes, they have them too) forced a white glassy backdrop to the OS X dock. Many users complained it was hard to discern the app icons from dock. I was a beta tester and I pleaded with Apple to offer a dark background or transparent option. This was in beta. They ignored me (and others) and caught the shinola for this hard to see dock upon launch.

Some open source God presented us with cDock -- a free way to finally see our dock clearer. Said 'miracle' option is already inside of Cairo dock, plus a Vegas Buffet of other options. (An option which stubbornly arrived with Yosemite, half hidden. :roll:)

I'm not trying to make a Mac. I'm trying to make a better OS with Linux. Apple is almost there, and with Linux I'm making improvements myself.

"But note, also, that the whole point of keyboard shortcuts is not to emulate the Mac but to add functionality."

Nope. :P The entire use of keyboard shortcuts, for me, is to replicate the ones I already know. Or change them to make them even more intuitive. I've unfortunately got cut and paste permanently 'installed' in my cranial OS, but I will see about other options when I follow your sage advice and do a direct install.

" Heck, while NOT MacOS in style or nature, Unity lives and dies by the dockset to the left hand side of the screen and is touch screen friendly. (I hate it but I hate touchscreen so...)."

You know those boneheads I was talking about earlier? My guess is that they were fired and created that very Unity thing. Bonus points for it being 'new', giant minus points for it being Hasbro. I've seen more attractive roadkill. :roll:

DOCK SIDEBAR -- There is an enormous amount of resentment from many computer users aimed at Apple's dock. Even among the iFanatics. Some HATE it. Hate isn't a strong enough term. They Cosby it. (Too soon?) :?:

I believe this anti-dock bias is akin to my distaste for that Unity panel. Again, one word: Hasbro. It looks like a toy gui for grade schoolers. To be fair: the Mac OS dock is far slicker (way less Hasbro) than the Unity thing.

Still - the majority of adult computer users do not want a Sesame Street interface to their computers. Most power users seem to be male. Go to YouTube and look at their bad-@$$ desktops set to some speed metal tune or rap song. The only 'childish' element these peeps sometimes dig is a half naked Manga girl. (Creepy.)


The problem is I don't prefer the dock because Apple offers one. I prefer it because it holds to a Steve Jobs standard that poor Apple is slowly forgetting: reduce clicks at all costs. The dock paradigm married to the new Yosemite universal search (available thru a simple keystroke) is the fastest way to do anything. (So I hear you on the keystroke thing but since I'm not the best typist I prefer a GUI.) I look at Windows 8.dung and can't believe how many clicks it takes to do most things. It's unacceptable.

"Me I can't stand the MacOS or docks but, as I say, to each their own."

Two thoughts:

1. Dare yourself to try Cairo dock for a period of time. Autohide menu and set it up the dock out of the way with: your critical apps, docklets you might want (weather, clock, whatever), and a shutdown button. Change the icons in themes if you want them more cool and less Hasbro. If you set it up right, your desktop will have nothing on it and you'll only occasionally need to drift down to the menu. Mine has all other non-docked apps available via the mint logo atop the dock. All there, ready to go. I did the spinning cube animation... but that's cooler than Hasbro.

2. Outside of the dock, slurring the Mac OS is confusing... since many of its functions are in Windows already (with more on the way :mrgreen: ) and almost all OS X options are already installed or available within popular Linux distros.

Meethinks many Linux users are really frustrated Windows users wanting to fix what Windows once had. Meeinvites you to instead go more agnostic and say, wait, why not just consider all Linux possibilities.

Since I've rambled so long that Linux 17.3 is now released, I'll shut up here and boldface that previous comment, which in truth, could have been my entire response. But it would have made no sense in isolation -- hence the novel Harry Potter and The Rambling Macnostic.

But one final thought. Suppose I don't like the system preferences in Mint Cinn 17.1. And I don't. Why? I need a fast easy way to adjust scrollbar behavior. Who wouldn't? Do you want this setting hidden? Of course not. It's not a 'Mac' thing that I want to adjust scrollbar behavior and have fast access to do doing so.

In Mint Cinn it's... not there. :?: In MInt KDE it was. Or at least the system preferences search field NOT ONLY searched available preferences but options within preferences. Does Mac do this? Yes. Does that matter? Nope. Windows does too at this point. It has nothing to do specifically with Mac and everything to do with keeping an OS current or beyond. That is critical --

-- because Linux should prosper. Not simply be a haven for terminal-iacs. It should be a place where victims of Windows OS and victims of Mac OS pricing come and hang.

"the great thing about Linux is that you *can* choose a varient that does work the way you want."

Exactly.

Peace brother. And if I ever call you Jedi-Invoice know I'm slightly dyslexic.

:D

skywolfblue
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Re: Is Mint 17.1 Cinnamon & KDE supposed to be stable or --

Post by skywolfblue » Thu Jan 01, 2015 7:45 am

As a former mac lover, I too prefer KDE.
snapshot2.jpeg
KDE seems to understand options, options out the wazoo!
From what I've seen, elementary isn't quite so configurable. Though it may get a lot better.
The Pool Man wrote:I don't serve the purposes of operating systems or GUIs. The ideal operating system or GUI serves me. This is something Mac kinda gets and Windows hasn't a damn clue about. And I'm not saying this in some selfish way. I believe all GUIs should serve all users -- and not the other way around.
Amen to that.
The Pool Man wrote:2. The KDE launcher is... urm... acceptable but kind of Windows bumpy. Redmond good-enough. I appreciate all it's trying to do but it lacks the Cinnamon elegance. I can live, mind you, because I use Docky and have the panel on Auto-hide anyway, but still --- needs work.
Have you tried the new Homerun menu for KDE? It's waaaaaaaaayyyyy better then the old default.

rbeltz48
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Re: Is Mint 17.1 Cinnamon & KDE supposed to be stable or --

Post by rbeltz48 » Thu Jan 01, 2015 10:01 am

I have been using Linux off and on since 2006 and full-time for the past 3 years. I'm surprised at your post. Dedoimedo just reviewed and tested elementary OS 0.3 freya beta and found it to be quite lacking in many respects. See here:

http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/elem ... -beta.html

His overall conclusion was a measly 5/10.0. Three years ago he also gave elementary a 5/10.0 score. Here's his conclusion on 0.3 beta:

Worst of all, there's been little progress since the previous release, and at its current pace, elementary OS will reach production in 2022. Old bugs remain, critical functionality issues have not been addressed, and I find it very hard to like this distribution. Sure, Freya is one of the prettiest Linux faces around, but that is simply not good enough. There must be more. And so once again, elementary OS, version 0.3, beta, gets 5/10. If this were a proper production version, the grade would be even worse.

With that in mind, perhaps your PC lacks the needed power for Linux Mint 17.1. I am using 17.1 MATE on my IBM Thinkpad T61 test machine (Core 2 Duo and 2 GB RAM) and it works just fine. I suggest that you try the MATE version of 17.1 which doesn't require as much overhead as Cinnamon and KDE. I don't really care for either of those desktops. You might also want to try Linux Mint LMDE which uses Debian as its base instead of Ubuntu. Either way, Mint has been at the top of the charts for the past 3 years. That tells you something - they listen to their users! And by the way, the IBM/Lenovo Thinkpads are some of the most Linux friendly laptops around. Go for it and welcome to Linux Mint!

The Pool Man
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Re: Is Mint 17.1 Cinnamon & KDE supposed to be stable or --

Post by The Pool Man » Thu Jan 01, 2015 5:36 pm

skywolfblue wrote:Have you tried the new Homerun menu for KDE? It's waaaaaaaaayyyyy better then the old default.
No. I haven't. And I'm getting the feeling that I have to go back to KDE Minty. I've learned a lot in Cinnamon, but I find it gets in my way on some basics. Like being able to set new open windows to a predictable place instead of it where it feels like they should go. And KDE would give me Calligra options back without taking much (or anything?) away for the basic user.

I will try out Homerun! Thanks!

UPDATE -- Tried KDE again. By playing with Cinndy I knew how to fix most issues I had with it. LOOOvvvve it.

Jedinovice
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Re: Is Mint 17.1 Cinnamon & KDE supposed to be stable or --

Post by Jedinovice » Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:42 am

Hi Poolman,

Sorry for the delay in responding, I have been out quite a bit.

Yeah, I get your point. I didn't think you were an apple man. I hate to say it but the true Apple addicts are fiercely defensive of their OS and hardware. It just seemed that you wanted to recreate a familiar interface and neither Cinnamon or KDE are geared that way exactly.

But, I have always said “A man's desktop is his castle.” You can arrange your desktop anyway you like! Linux allows for that. That's one reason I personally hate the Apple UI. For me it's far too limiting, proscriptive and, dare I say it, unintuitive. There's almost now development of the UI since the early 1990's. I know, I was there!

But if KDE and docking work for you – go for it. But bear in mind that KDE especially is not following the Apple UI approach and so is going to be very different to the UI experience you have had up to now. That's why I mention the keyboard shortcuts – they are much more of the KDE philosophy than a dock – or even desktop shortcuts (though you can have them.)

Oh, in regards to the KDE launcher, yeah, I don't like the sliding pretty-pretty default launcher either. But you can right click on the launcher and select 'switch to classic launcher style.' I find that much more logical and easier to navigate. Takes up less desktop space as well.

Also, KDE does not need nearly as much power as people think. In its early days KDE 4 was a code mess and was very slow. But the code has been optimised to the max since and, once you turn off desktop effects, runs pretty fast. I find it's only slow on start up but still faster than Windows. My c50 struggles with KDE a bit but that's running like a low speed Pentium III! Ignore claims you need 2GB RAM to run KDE, I have Mint 17 KDE running very happily on my wife's 1GB Atom n455 and it runs lovely on a ten year old P4 with 1GB. Mint tends to attract the Cinnamon/MATE crowd here – for obvious reasons – and so KDE gets a bit of bad rap as people still seem to judge the GUI by what it was like when 4.0 came out but I find the current KDE sweet.

But, then KDE works the way I want it to. When I first ran up KDE 4 (With slackware would you believe?!) and used it for a week or so I was emailing friends in the old country saying, “This is the GUI I have been waiting for! This is how a UI should be!”

I like being able to start up my ZX81 emulator with a single keystroke. Kinda fits.

Anyway, play – as you are doing – and make it work for you. But be careful not to judge Mint by performance on a virtual machine. It's called virtual for a reason – it's not real and may lead to problems, especially with a Mac as the host.
Mint Linux 18.0 64 bit KDE edition.
Video editing (AMV's mainly) on a dual core n2840 atom!
Results here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5Dw91 ... yVKS7X1Rlg
LOOK HERE FOR MY DEMO OF MINT LINUX KDE - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8hDYiGprWs

The Pool Man
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Re: Is Mint 17.1 Cinnamon & KDE supposed to be stable or --

Post by The Pool Man » Fri Jan 02, 2015 7:03 pm

Jedinovice wrote:Sorry for the delay in responding, I have been out quite a bit.
Are you kidding? The length of my last response could knock someone out for quite a bit, and most definitely delay any response. After all, it took you a calender year to reply. :wink: But if you'll forgive me, I keep seeing a strange (yet harmless to me) bias in your comments -- and I just wanted to share. 'Cause your bias, IMO, misrepresents Windows, Mac, and Linux. The smoking gun is right here --
That's one reason I personally hate the Apple UI. For me it's far too limiting, proscriptive and, dare I say it, unintuitive. There's almost no development of the UI since the early 1990's. I know, I was there!
There's a lot there in so few words.

1. Limiting and proscriptive are really the same idea. Yes, in comparison to Linux, the Apple UI is limited. But so is Windows. The 8.1 debacle and how Windows resisted (the logical choice) of making Metro apps optional says it all. So hating the Apple UI exclusively seems... biased.

2. I can't argue with you if you find Apple UI unintuitive, but it is a fact that most consider the UI exceptional. So much so Redmond oft uses it as an inspiration. (Yes, I'm aware that iOS gets inspired by Android, but that's a diff subject.)

3. The whopper here is your statement there's been no development of the UI since the 1990s. Wow. The entire UI was overhauled in 2001. That's when OS 9 became OS X, with a complete dump of old code. That's when the dock was introduced. That's when core tech was installed within OS X that completely changed the game from 'dot matrix' computing to modern computing. When Mac stopped crashing all of a sudden. And interface changes have been smoothly implemented nearly every year instead of Windows 8.1 disasters. Windows has yet to catch up and Linux is nearly there. In some ways Linux is past there, which is what makes Linux delightful.

*****************************************

Your brand of Apple iHate isn't rare or weird. (I use the word 'hate' because you did.) I wasn't quite aware of how pungent an iHate this was until the iOS vs Android camps emerged. Editing paragraphs out my prior draft of this, in a nutshell, I believe PC and Android iHaters resent the 'pricy' status symbol thing of Apple. That they rail about how 'subpar OS X and iOS are when really it's a money thing.

So all this iHate reminds me of when it was trendy for non-yuppies to label yuppies... yuppies. I totally get resenting someone who must have the best of everything and they make sure you know they need it and you don't deserve it. Absolutely. But trashing OS X as a 'yuppie' OS is more accurate than trashing the OS itself. Case in point -- here's my Mac desktop --
Yosemite
Yosemite
and here's my Mint KDE desktop
YoseKDE kinda
YoseKDE kinda
With some ease I've found the Mint OS as intuitive as OS X. For the most part I've been able to walk right into Mint Unix and use it like my preferred Mac Unix. Windows 8.1? Stuff is hidden everywhere. Typically on bootup it needs to update Windows Defender. Yuck.

This is why this bias I keep hearing from you is so perplexing to me. I submit to you, Jedi, that to perpetuate that bias against Appl within Linux is counter-productive for the Linux community. I'm not picking on you specifically, by the by, because I've read this bias everywhere in the Linux net. If I were to pitch the Linux world to non-Linux users, it would go something like this --

PC Users -- keep your hardware, rid yourself of a terrible OS. (And get an improved version of it for your troubles.) Or install a viral free surfing app called Mint KDE on top of Windows and use it to surf email whatever instead.

Mac Users -- get an affordable laptop as a second computer instead of an iPad or pricy Macbook and install OS X Mint KDE on it... heehee.

Public school systems are CRAZY not be Linux at this point.

Well, I've rambled again. But seriously. C'mon. The beauty of Linux isn't that you're avoiding Apple. It's that you're avoiding the worst of Apple and Windows while having access to some of the best of Apple and Windows.

Or what's the frickin' point of Linux? :lol:

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Re: Is Mint 17.1 Cinnamon & KDE supposed to be stable or --

Post by mr_raider » Sat Jan 03, 2015 10:14 am

Can the OP do a back to back comparison of Cinnamon and KDe on his hardware for system use, CPU use and speed? Especially during playback of flash vdeo? I find Cinammon hammers my CPU and video playback gets choppy.
Image

The Pool Man
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Re: Is Mint 17.1 Cinnamon & KDE supposed to be stable or --

Post by The Pool Man » Sat Jan 03, 2015 5:36 pm

mr_raider wrote:Can the OP do a back to back comparison of Cinnamon and KDe on his hardware for system use, CPU use and speed? Especially during playback of flash vdeo? I find Cinammon hammers my CPU and video playback gets choppy.
You should probably put your question as its own thread. Informal response: within VirtualBox, Mint KDE handles a YouTube video of mine at 1080 almost perfectly. Within Mint Cinnamon, choppy as you say. I presumed otherwise. I'm very impressed.

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