Wine, why an external software?

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kien
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Wine, why an external software?

Post by kien »

Hi,
by my opinion the software wine should be already installed on all Linux-operating systems! If it would, I´m sure many used to windows user would feel attracked to try work with Linux, instead. What might a good reason not to have it pre-installed on all os of Linux, even just as an opportunity to choose?
( I´m not a native english speaker, so please try to forgive my mistakes)

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Re: Wine, why an external software?

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Re: Wine, why an external software?

Post by kukamuumuka »

The idea of linux is not to be tempting for windows users. Linuxes are independent operating systems which have enough programs for an average user, so Wine is unnecessary.

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Re: Wine, why an external software?

Post by Mark Phelps »

Why? Consider the following ...

1) Not a canned solution for running Window apps: Wine is NOT a Windows Emulator, meaning, you can't just install Windows apps and expect them to run. Wine is actually a "hack" in which some Windows OS kernel calls were replaced in some of the Windows DLL files with Linux OS kernel calls. Back when this was done, most Windows apps used those calls, but more recently, Windows apps have moved to using other middleware -- most of which does not work in Wine. Plus, if you were to scan the WineHQ application compatibility database, you would find that more than half of the apps listed there have problems working in Wine -- if they even work at all!

2) Detail work required: There is actually a LOT of work involved in getting a Windows app to work halfway decent in Wine -- and the details of this work are way beyond the typical "Windows user" knowledge of computing.

3) Different way of doing things: Linux is not intended to be a free replacement for Windows, even if some of the Desktop Environments have been constructed to look a lot like the older Win7-style windows desktops. People coming over to Linux need to learn the new ways of doing things here, not jut continue to struggle with their previous Windows-ways of doing things.

4) Missing out on Linux apps: Linux apps have been written to work well in our environment, and not only are nearly all of them free, there are often alternative apps for doing the same things. Since you don't have to buy them, you don't end up spending hundreds of dollars for something you end up not liking. Continuing to struggle with using Windows apps misses out on this rich environment of Linux apps.

5) Lack of continuing support for applications: Windows apps are constantly evolving -- often done, in large part, to justify charging fees to upgrade from one version to the next. Just because today's version works OK in Wine is no indication that tomorrow's version will still work. Case in point -- one of the software suites that nearly everyone in Windows uses -- MS Office. IF you look into its ratings in the WineHQ website, you'll see that since the 2003 version, the ratings have been going steadily downhill -- meaning, less and less functionality works in each newer version. So, if you were struggling with Office 2010 in Wine and found you needed to "upgrade" to keep current with other folks using Office 2013 in Windows, you would suddenly find that the new version will not work -- at least, not in Wine.

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Re: Wine, why an external software?

Post by Hoser Rob »

Mark Phelps wrote:Why? Consider the following ...

1) Not a canned solution for running Window apps: Wine is NOT a Windows Emulator, meaning, you can't just install Windows apps and expect them to run. Wine is actually a "hack" in which some Windows OS kernel calls were replaced in some of the Windows DLL files with Linux OS kernel calls. Back when this was done, most Windows apps used those calls, but more recently, Windows apps have moved to using other middleware -- most of which does not work in Wine. Plus, if you were to scan the WineHQ application compatibility database, you would find that more than half of the apps listed there have problems working in Wine -- if they even work at all!

2) Detail work required: There is actually a LOT of work involved in getting a Windows app to work halfway decent in Wine -- and the details of this work are way beyond the typical "Windows user" knowledge of computing.

3) Different way of doing things: Linux is not intended to be a free replacement for Windows, even if some of the Desktop Environments have been constructed to look a lot like the older Win7-style windows desktops. People coming over to Linux need to learn the new ways of doing things here, not jut continue to struggle with their previous Windows-ways of doing things.

4) Missing out on Linux apps: Linux apps have been written to work well in our environment, and not only are nearly all of them free, there are often alternative apps for doing the same things. Since you don't have to buy them, you don't end up spending hundreds of dollars for something you end up not liking. Continuing to struggle with using Windows apps misses out on this rich environment of Linux apps.

5) Lack of continuing support for applications: Windows apps are constantly evolving -- often done, in large part, to justify charging fees to upgrade from one version to the next. Just because today's version works OK in Wine is no indication that tomorrow's version will still work. Case in point -- one of the software suites that nearly everyone in Windows uses -- MS Office. IF you look into its ratings in the WineHQ website, you'll see that since the 2003 version, the ratings have been going steadily downhill -- meaning, less and less functionality works in each newer version. So, if you were struggling with Office 2010 in Wine and found you needed to "upgrade" to keep current with other folks using Office 2013 in Windows, you would suddenly find that the new version will not work -- at least, not in Wine.
What he said.

Wine is a rather crap program, though I wouldn't blame the devs for that. And far too many noobs think they'll be able to run all their windoze programs on it.

I do have wine installed on my laptop running mint 17/cinnamon. But I've never used it. The only program I can think of I'd actually need it for is DVDFab HD Decrypter, which does apparently run well. But I had ripped pretty much all my DVDs I wanted when I still had a Windows 7 partition.

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Re: Wine, why an external software?

Post by CaptainMintMan »

Mark,
Whilst I agree with what you say, I feel that you are missing an important point here. Some of us are indeed looking to get away from Windows, yet we have specific programs which we don't want to lose because we have grown up with them over a long number of years and have no wish to see all that accumulated learning go to waste. Indeed, a further point is that some of us simply don't have the time due to old age to learn new programs, always assuming that the new programs can easily take our accumulated data.

I'm 71. I've been using Windows, and Windows programmes, for getting on for 25 or more years. It is very unlikely that I will have another 25 years of life, therefore for me it makes sense to have a halfway house whereby I can carry on using those Windows based programs for which there is no readily learned Linux program.

Currently, I use Mint v.13 (Mate) which works very well. I did look at the original Mint v.17 (Mate) but ran into difficulties so stayed with v.13. I now have v17.1 Rebecca (Mate) loaded (in a dual boot arrangement) and this does seem somewhat better - except that the Train Simulator program, OpenBVE, still does not work, yet in v.13 (Mate) it ran ok.
The pure Linux programs I use are Thunderbird, Firefox, Libre Office Writer and Libre Office Calc, and it will be noted that these four programs all have Windows versions thus making the transfer easy.
I also use Paint Shop Pro v.7.04 (PSP) and Design Cad 2000 (DC2K) via Wine. Both of these are old, obsolete, Windows programs yet they do all that I want. I know that Gimp in all probability can replace PSP but it's interface is hardly conducive to experimenting with, hence I stay with PSP via Wine. DC2K is 20+ years old (I believe the current version is v 25) and there may well be a Linux equivalent somewhere (but not a Design Cad version for Linux). But since it works ok with Wine, then where is the incentive to change? I must point out that I do also have Design Cad v.17.2 and this does not work satisfactorily with Wine.
Finally, I use a positively ancient DOS based database which does all that I want. For this I use DOSEmu (I think) and again it works. Ok, sometimes searching is a bit slow, but it works. I did try and look at converting to Libre Office Base, but rapidly gave up. After all, why waste what's left of my time here on earth attempting to come to grips with a new database system, and then somehow transfer all the data (200K+ records) across when I've got a system that works?

I think the idea of saying that people must learn a different way of working, and use different programs, when transferring to Linux is totally wrong. Obviously for some people, especially with modest requirements, this may be possible, but for others, it cannot be so. This is why I have the halfway house arrangement described above. People do have different requirements which may not be met by a pure Linux environment. I also think that Linux is not yet ready for the general public: there is still too much emphasis on using the command line and people coming from a Windows environment simply won't do it. Face it, the command line, whilst very powerful, is old tech to most people, and furthermore, the vast majority of computer users are looking for the easiest, simplest, method of achieving their objectives.

Regards,

Captain MintMan

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Re: Wine, why an external software?

Post by MartyMint »

administrollaattori wrote:The idea of linux is not to be tempting for windows users.
This can't be repeated enough...

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Re: Wine, why an external software?

Post by Bolle1961 »

CaptainMintMan wrote:Some of us are indeed looking to get away from Windows, yet we have specific programs which we don't want to lose because we have grown up with them over a long number of years and have no wish to see all that accumulated learning go to waste.
Then there are 2 decent options
1 Dualboot
2 VirtualBox

And a third option, stick to Windows ;)
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Re: Wine, why an external software?

Post by Mark Phelps »

Captain MintMan:

My comments were directed primarily at folks who want Linux to DEFAULT to being essentially a "free clone" of Windows, and have little or no interest in learning how to do anything the "Linux-way". These folks come here, demanding to see a desktop just like the one they have in Windows (probably v7, not v8 or newer), and complain bitterly when told things are INTENTIONALLY different. Then, they jump into using Wine, or PlayOnLinux, or WineTricks, and complain bitterly when Internet Explorer or MS Office doesn't work just like it did in Windows.

These folks aren't really interested in Wine as either a temporary stopgap (until they learn Linux equivalents) or as a way of running a couple of apps they really need to keep using on a daily basis. These folks are looking as Wine as a long-term solution that lets them keep using Windows apps pretty much indefinitely.

And, there are other folks -- those who need to retain use of a few Windows apps. This is either because the apps they need don't work well in Wine or there is no real Linux substitute that provides features they rely on in the Windows apps. The right "solution" for these folks is what I use, and have been using -- dual-boot setup. You've already paid for Windows and for the apps, you might as well keep using them.

I have been dual-booting Windows and Linux on my desktop and intend to continue that indefinitely.

Doesn't mean I don't like Linux or the distros (Ubuntu Mate is looking pretty good -- given I'm not a "touchscreen interface for the desktop" person), what it does mean is that I believe in using what works. Sometimes, that is Windows. Sometimes, that is Linux.

But ... I will remain steadfast in saying that we should NOT be turning Linux into Windows; instead, we need to continue to have the Linux distros pursue their own courses of development.

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Re: Wine, why an external software?

Post by Pjotr »

No Wine on my systems.... It also offers Windows malware an (albeit limited) opportunity to do harm in Linux systems. :shock:

For Windows applications I advise.... Windows. Dual boot is the right solution for people who aren't able or willing to find Linux alternatives for Windows applications they need.
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Re: Wine, why an external software?

Post by CaptainMintMan »

administrollaattori & MartyMint,
The idea of linux is not to be tempting for windows users.

Why not? Surely it is in everyone's interest to develop Linux to a point at which it becomes a serious alternative to Windows. Or is it that you wish to maintain the idea that Linux is for nerds?

Bolle1961,
Then there are 2 decent options
1 Dualboot
2 VirtualBox

And a third option, stick to Windows ;)


None of these options enable the user to get away from Microsoft Windows. Please note that a lot of the software which runs on top of Windows is perfectly satisfactory: it is purely Windows which causes the problems. Also Dualboot negates one of the useful facilities of multi-tasking & task-swopping by forcing the user to shut down and restart in the other operating system.

I think the idea of a pure Linux system is so much nonsense. We live in a world which is dominated by Microsoft hence whether or not we like it, we have to accept a degree of interworking with Microsoft. Take for example data in the .doc or .xls format, both of which are, or were, the default proprietary format for Microsoft Word & Excel programmes. As a Linux user, if you receive such a document are you going to refuse to open it? Are you going to reply in the .odt & .ods format, ie the Open Office & libre Office default formats, and hope that the recipient has sufficient nous to be able to open them correctly? Or are you going to use the Microsoft formats? Because if you do, then you are already beholden to, and interworking with, Microsoft.

You can huff, and you can puff as much as you want. In the short term Linux is not able to, and never can, stand on its own, Microsoft will see to that. Linux users need to come to terms with that fact, unpalatable though it may be, and also accept the fact that different users have different requirements. I've already stated that at 71 I don't have the same luxury of the time to learn new programs as I did when I was 31, and believe me, I will not be alone in that view. Does this mean that I should not be using Linux? Because if so, then it perhaps suggests that you need to look at yourselves and start thinking about other people.

Regards,

Captain MintMan

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Re: Wine, why an external software?

Post by Bolle1961 »

CaptainMintMan wrote:None of these options enable the user to get away from Microsoft Windows. Please note that a lot of the software which runs on top of Windows is perfectly satisfactory: it is purely Windows which causes the problems. Also Dualboot negates one of the useful facilities of multi-tasking & task-swopping by forcing the user to shut down and restart in the other operating system.
That Windows causes the problems I disagree. I use Windows since Windows 95OSR2.1, before that (and later) I used MSX, never had any problems.
If you have only a few programs that need Windows I suggest VirtualBox ( updating your car navigation, MS Office and so on)
Gamers and eg Autocad users I'll advise dualboot (or if your computer is not capable to run Virtualbox in a decent manner, like netbooks)
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Re: Wine, why an external software?

Post by mbohets »

What might a good reason not to have it pre-installed on all os of Linux
Because it is an open invitation for windows malware.
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Re: Wine, why an external software?

Post by Cosmo. »

CaptainMintMan wrote:Take for example data in the .doc or .xls format, both of which are, or were, the default proprietary format for Microsoft Word & Excel programmes. As a Linux user, if you receive such a document are you going to refuse to open it? ....
A bad example. Out of several reasons:

File-formats are not a matter of the OS, but of the office-program. What you told applies to LibreOffice / OpenOffice / other Office, regardless if they get used in Windows or in another OS.

You said it yourself: It is a proprietary format, only badly documented (out of commercial interest; who's interest you may answer for yourself).

What you seem to want is an OS, that is not from MS, but is Windows with a different name. That is impossible, because Windows gets distributed (sold) with it's own license and also Windows is a proprietary system, in many parts not or badly documented, what got to some sentencing, especially in Europe. But even in the US MS had in the past got into some trouble because of that, remember that there was about 15 years ago the discussion to smash MS in 3 parts (so called Baby-Bills). With the trick of exchanging B gates by his friend S Ballmer (and some other tricks) MS was able to prevent it, but the problem did not change.

So if you need Windows - use Windows. If you do not want Windows - you did not give a single reason for that, but obviously you want Linux (at least in my understanding) - you have with Linux an alternative. That means, quite a different OS with quite a different (and IMHO better) architecture. And applications will always (in a foreseeable future) be needed to get built on the basis of the OS, the other way round is impossible. If you have the luck, that applications you are used to are also available for Linux, it is fine. If you miss the one or other application in Linux, blame their authors, that they do not provide it. Linux is not responsible for that, partly out of technical, partly out of legal reasons.

If this does not help, than you can try to run the application via wine. If it works, it is fine. But also the wine developers cannot perform magic, they also are restricted by bad documentation and legal restrictions. If wine does not work with an application, there is only the alternative of virtualization or dual booting (where I agree it is more circumvented).

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Re: Wine, why an external software?

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CaptainMintMan wrote:Take for example data in the .doc or .xls format, both of which are, or were, the default proprietary format for Microsoft Word & Excel programmes. As a Linux user, if you receive such a document are you going to refuse to open it? ....
When Libre Office can't handle such a document well, which is nowadays the exception, then I use the free Office Online cloud service from.... Microsoft itself. Within Linux. :mrgreen:
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Re: Wine, why an external software?

Post by Flemur »

I use wine every day, but don't think it should be installed because a lot of windows programs don't run on it, or run strangely. But for certain apps it's great.

And lotsa people like a minimal install, then they just add the extra stuff they need.

IIRC, there is a distro where wine is installed by default. You might check 'distro watch' if interested.
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Re: Wine, why an external software?

Post by Mark Phelps »

I don't have the same luxury of the time to learn new programs as I did when I was 31, and believe me, I will not be alone in that view. Does this mean that I should not be using Linux? Because if so, then it perhaps suggests that you need to look at yourselves and start thinking about other people.
Solution is simple -- if you don't want to learn new programs, then stay with Windows -- and never upgrade your windows apps! Why? Because Office 2013 apps have a very different look and feel from Office 2010 apps, which differ a lot from Office 2003 apps. So, even in Windows, when new app versions come out, you are faced with learning new interfaces.

You claim that Linux can't stand on its own because it can't run native Windows apps and/or use proprietary Office file formats. Nonesense! What you're claiming is a lack of interoperability (which is the opposite of standing on your own), and no one who has used Linux distros for any length of time will claim full interoperability between them and MS Windows -- apps or file formats.

As to who Linux is for -- the answer that is most often given is folks who want something DIFFERENT from MS Windows, not folks who want a free Windows clone. If your work involves daily usage of Windows apps and/or proprietary format Windows files, the answer is simple -- use Windows!

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Re: Wine, why an external software?

Post by kien »

About 10 years ago I lived in a house community in Barcelona, where many Linux Experts were living, too. It was very interesting to see their enthusiasm in writting new programms and solving problems into the Linux universe. Also I remember that their usage of that weird thing, called mouse, was nearly less than seldom, but they were really great by using the command line. Sometimes when we met, to get help to make run an application, but Linux OS didn´t liked it, they were very virtuoso to type in hieroglyphics commands to make it run (sometimes after 10-20 minutes).
This days, see what happened. People (in Europe) are using strange devices, mostly called Android-tablets/phones. If you play a game (there are not many other oportunities... consume, of course) on this devices and if you like to check out what other people thinking about, you might read, many of them complaining: "too many advertisments", games are "not running properly". It seems like, many of them have no idea (at least) about things called like Proccessor, RAM, or the switch to disable Internet. Never talk with them about things like "root", "iso-files" or "command-line Interface (CLI).
See, I absolutly agree to work with software, which is made to give the possibility to it´s user, to change it and make it even better. But, unfortunally, I believe there won`t be many people left to continue to make this work in further generations.
Some people might think, it is better to let sink "the ship" in honour and uncorrupted - what I understand, but by my opinion a compromise to make Linux more attractive for different audiences might help to keep the mankind pool of creative diversity (at least) stable.

Of course. I´ve got two; a Linux Mint and Windows partition. In Germany, I can buy and register a prepaid-SIM-Card (for Internet) anonymously. To use it by surfstick it requires the compatibility with Windows OS, that´s why I like try use Wine, to make it run.

kien
Last edited by kien on Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:18 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Wine, why an external software?

Post by kukamuumuka »

kien wrote: Some people might think, it is better to let sink "the ship" in honour and uncorrupted - what I understand, but by my opinion a compromise to make Linux more attractive for different audiences might help to keep the mankind pool of creative diversity stable.

kien
You are an optimist .. :lol:
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Re: Wine, why an external software?

Post by kien »

I seriously dislike to sound arrogant, but what do some of You (not all) think about which influence economy has got, by manipulating technical development in a certain direction?!

kien

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