update manager - advice (not a question)

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bmike1
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update manager - advice (not a question)

Post by bmike1 » Mon Feb 01, 2016 1:25 pm

Okay guys (and gals), don't just listen to the little shield that lets you know when you need to update your system. You may ask why that is.... well it does not tell you everything that needs has an update available for it. About once a week you should open a terminal and run "sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get upgrade".

I've been doing this about 4 months and no problems. I've known people who have been doing it for years with no problems. These guys actually advised me to do a dist-upgrade (which is what I've actually been doing). One person said that he couldn't even remember the last time he did not do a dist-upgrade. I don't recommend it unless it is a newly installed system because you will break something on a system that has been running for a while. This is what they told me but I didn't pay heed to the warning and I crashed the system. Oh well.... that is what rsync is for!
rsync -aWuq --delete-before /home/<user>/Documents /<destination directory>
Last edited by bmike1 on Mon Feb 01, 2016 1:41 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: update manager - advice (not a question)

Post by Moem » Mon Feb 01, 2016 1:37 pm

Okay ma'am (or sir), I hope you don't mind that I trust Clem and his team more than I trust you.
In other words: I will not eat your eggs and ham, I will not eat them, Sam-I-Am. 8)
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Re: update manager - advice (not a question)

Post by bmike1 » Mon Feb 01, 2016 1:43 pm

M0em wrote:Okay ma'am (or sir), I hope you don't mind that I trust Clem and his team more than I trust you.
In other words: I will not eat your eggs and ham, I will not eat them, Sam-I-Am. 8)
whatever you want. it is your system.
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Re: update manager - advice (not a question)

Post by Habitual » Mon Feb 01, 2016 1:50 pm

In fact, don't even use the Cone of Silence.

Double Secret Probation for you!

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Re: update manager - advice (not a question)

Post by Fred Barclay » Mon Feb 01, 2016 2:01 pm

bmike1 wrote:well it does not tell you everything that needs has an update available for it.
Actually, it does show every update (excluding kernel upgrades) if you choose Edit>>Preferences>>Levels and tick the "Visible?" box for levels 4 && 5. (1-3 should already be enabled.)

However, if you run

Code: Select all

sudo apt-get update 
sudo apt-get upgrade
you might as well be running Ubuntu. One of the main--perhaps the biggest--difference between Mint and Ubuntu is that Mint classifies updates by stability levels. Levels 1-3 are nearly always safe (they won't destroy stability) while 4-5 can create an unstable system. It's for this reason that Clem & Co. only advise applying update levels 1-3.
"apt-get upgrade" ignores update levels and applies most updates blindly. "apt-get dist-upgrade" ignores update levels and applies all update blindly. Long story short: you have a much bigger chance of breaking something if you continue to go this way. ;)

There was a bit of a "discussion" between Oliver Grawert and Clem regarding Grawert's contention that the Update Manager hacked security updates out of Mint. While Grawert was pretty badly mistaken on many counts, if you prefer, you can set up the Update Manager to install all security updates (even for levels 4-5) by default while still ignoring other 4-5 level updates:
Edit>>Preferences>>Options and tick "Always select and trust security updates." I personally always apply all security updates (though not automatically, I just tick the "Always show security updates" and tick 4-5 security updates manually) and have never had a problem; however, I use LMDE Betsy, whose package base (Debian Stable) is usually more stable than Ubuntu.

EDIT: M0em sums it up best:
I will not eat your eggs and ham! I will not eat them, Sam-I-Am!
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Re: update manager - advice (not a question)

Post by richyrich » Mon Feb 01, 2016 2:07 pm

I have been using Mint since Mint 5 Ellysa, and have NEVER done a dist-upgrade . . I like that ! I also have NEVER broke one of my Mint systems ! :mrgreen:

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Re: update manager - advice (not a question)

Post by Pjotr » Mon Feb 01, 2016 2:27 pm

bmike1 wrote:Okay guys (and gals), don't just listen to the little shield that lets you know when you need to update your system. You may ask why that is.... well it does not tell you everything that needs has an update available for it. About once a week you should open a terminal and run "sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get upgrade".
That's some bad advice. :shock:

The level classification in Update Manager and its default settings, as explained already by Fred Barclay, is one of the main improvements of Mint over its Ubuntu codebase. It's a true gem that helps you to keep a stable system during the entire supported lifetime of a Mint version.

This improvement, which I've learned to appreciate fully only after several years, is the main reason why I've switched all of my own machines and all of the machines that I maintain, over to Mint. It makes system administration a lot easier, with only a little decrease in security. And I've been a fulltime *buntu user since 2006....
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Re: update manager - advice (not a question)

Post by gunvolt » Mon Feb 01, 2016 2:43 pm

There are actually good reasons some updates are invisible, and that is god and by design. Most daily computer users would rather have their PC's data at risk than have it break or deal with any kind of instability. If that isn't your preference, you can enable level 4 and 5 updates in the Preferences of the Update Manager.
So for newbs: don't listen to this guy and for extreme security lovers: do.
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Re: update manager - advice (not a question)

Post by bmike1 » Mon Feb 01, 2016 2:47 pm

I remember about a year or so ago I opened the upgrade manager and instaqalled the updates. There were no level 4 or 5 packages showing and I wondered if everything was updated I ran apt-get and (this is after a couple of years) I spent about 15 minutes waiting for it to update everything that had been forgotten.
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Re: update manager - advice (not a question)

Post by Moem » Mon Feb 01, 2016 3:06 pm

That's not 'forgotten'. That's the default setting: it will show, and update, only updates from levels 1 - 3. But of course, you can override that setting to include update levels 4 and 5.

So it seems that your 'advice' is based on not knowing how the updater works... is that it? :shock:
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Re: update manager - advice (not a question)

Post by bmike1 » Mon Feb 01, 2016 3:37 pm

my update manager shows level 3 and 4 updates but they aren't checked for install. then I ran the apt upgrade and while there were three or so level 4/5 there were about 20 additional things that had to be installed. hmmmmm.... maybe they were programs associated with the level 4/5 programs but if I remember correctly some of the programs were recognizeable. after I ran apt-get it still hummed along fine for a year or so. then I had some of my hardware go belly-up so That is when I got a new computer 6 months ago. listen, if you don't want to do it don't but don't insult me moen.
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Re: update manager - advice (not a question)

Post by Habitual » Mon Feb 01, 2016 3:53 pm

M0em wrote:That's not 'forgotten'. That's the default setting: it will show, and update, only updates from levels 1 - 3. But of course, you can override that setting to include update levels 4 and 5.
Isn't dist-upgrade the equivalent of Level 1 through 5 Updates?

Mike: If your insulted by "not knowing now updater works" you should get off the internet or grow some thick skin.

Don't take it personally, it's only the internet.

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Re: update manager - advice (not a question)

Post by Fred Barclay » Mon Feb 01, 2016 4:02 pm

Habitual wrote:
M0em wrote:That's not 'forgotten'. That's the default setting: it will show, and update, only updates from levels 1 - 3. But of course, you can override that setting to include update levels 4 and 5.
Isn't dist-upgrade the equivalent of Level 1 through 5 Updates?
It appears so:
https://askubuntu.com/questions/81585/w ... an-upgrade
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Re: update manager - advice (not a question)

Post by bmike1 » Mon Feb 01, 2016 4:18 pm

just because it is the internet does that mean we're allowed to be rude?
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Re: update manager - advice (not a question)

Post by Habitual » Mon Feb 01, 2016 4:28 pm

bmike1 wrote:just because it is the internet does that mean we're allowed to be rude?
You don't know how an electron microscope works. <-- is this also 'rude'?

Your "tip"/advice goes against everything that's been posted here about Updates.
While it may work for you it most certainly will not work for everyone.
Don't take it personally.

If you want to be mad, be mad at the clowns that gave you bad advice.

Even a broke watch is right twice a day.

You know it's bad advice, else you wouldn't be so defensive about it.

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Re: update manager - advice (not a question)

Post by altair4 » Mon Feb 01, 2016 4:36 pm

For some thoughts on dist-upgrade and the like you might want to read eanfrid's posts here: http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=175388

It's a shame he no longer posts.
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Re: update manager - advice (not a question)

Post by all41 » Mon Feb 01, 2016 4:43 pm

This is a poor update policy to follow--listen to what some learned colleagues are telling you.
One thing for sure--you better have an excellent backup/restore policy as well.
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Re: update manager - advice (not a question)

Post by LinuxJim » Mon Feb 01, 2016 4:50 pm

I agree that the original post is bad advice.

But, one thing the OP doesn't understand is that a dist-upgrade will often upgrade the shared libc, kernel, modules, and other stuff that pulls the rug out from under running programs. You really need to REBOOT immediately after a dist-upgrade to avoid crashing your system - especially if you don't know exactly what you're doing.

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Re: update manager - advice (not a question)

Post by bmike1 » Mon Feb 01, 2016 4:59 pm

I'll tell you the way I figure it. I run an operating system and don't really do a hard update (from disk) until my hardware dies. I put what I do to back up my system in one of my posts. You are right; it is probably best not to do a dist-upgrade but I have a good back up of my data and instructions of how to get the non-data parts of the computer back to normal so I am not concerned (getting the non-data sections back to normal is a matter of a text file with apt commands that a copy and paste into a terminal and of other commands I copy and paste as well). But like I said, never had a problem with a apt-get upgrade in 3 years. The problem was the dist-upgrade.
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Re: update manager - advice (not a question)

Post by bmike1 » Mon Feb 01, 2016 5:12 pm

Thanks for the link to: viewtopic.php?f=18&t=175388
And to make it clear for newbies, "apt-get dist-upgrade" works (almost) perfectly only on either a genuine Ubuntu or Debian release. Using this command on a derivative of either one is not appropriate because of the software sources mixing Ubuntu/Debian and Mint (the derivative distro) repos.

In such a situtation where distro repos are mixed, what is done with one source may be undone with one another. The result is potentially a big mess of incoherent versions or dist-upgrade giving you the (obviously awfully stupid) "advice" to remove hundreds of packages. Then add PPAs to this mix... :roll:
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