KDE,-- possibly best choice?

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Jedinovice
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Re: KDE,-- possibly best choice?

Post by Jedinovice »

Broken Canoe wrote:

From the roadmap listed in that thread, there are no plans to actually implement Dave Edmundson's request to Martin to add the functionality back (nothing scheduled for Plasma 5.8 either). My general feeling is that there's something of a schism between what the developers want, and what the users have had, use, and need, both in previous and current versions. Regressions are always troubling.


While KDE 4.x was excellent, 5.x hasn't lived up to my what I had hoped it would be, because of many small regressions that end up accumulating to make your workflow difficult. In the end, I switched to XFCE which does what I need it to do.

If I may, not exactly defend Plasma 5 (I haven't used it in anger yet and so I can't really comment) but put it in context. While Plasma 4 has been excellent, when it first came out it certainly wasn't. OK, there were a number of factors. Early versions of KDE 4 were really Beta and the KDE team said that clearly. But various distros ignored that and released regardless pushing KDE versiosn that were slow, bugged to hell and damn near unusable. People also complained about the change in workflow from KDE 3 to 4. It was far worse than KDE 5! It did not help that the KDE team also turned on their users blaming them for using Beta renderings of KDE 4. The jump from KDE 3 to 4 went down in IT history in how NOT to release a new UI - though the KDE 4 disaster has been far surpassed by the fiasco of Windows 8 (and, more arguably, GNOME 3 which spawned Cinnamon and Mate just to escape the GNOE 3 UI disaster.) KDE 3 was forked to Trinity in protest of the new KDE 4 - though it has not picked up any sizable user base and need specially compiled software to work with the UI. To give credit to the KDE team, they actively helped the fork to Trinity and helped the new team pick up their own code.


The KDE 5 release is nothing like as bad as the jump from 3 - 4!


Now, I confess that I don't use multiple workspaces in KDE (I always figured this was functionality screaming for regression) band so the changes don't affect me. It's keyboard shortcuts that I live and die by. That and the wonderful dolphin.


So… it could well be that KDE 5 is inferior to 4. I don't know. I haven;t used it in anger and with laptops dying around me and constant overtime I doubt I'll be able to go 5 for some considerable time, even when Mint 18 comes out. I thought I would jump but I am on all backup laptops right now and my schedule from next week is SOLID and wil remain so until my contract expires. Am now checking charging needed to ensure I make enough money in 5 days that I can take two days off!


But… whatever the problems, this is nothing like as bad as the jump from 3-4, nor from Windows 7 to 8 nor GNOME 2 to 3.


Just perspective.


I also know that Plasma 5 is geared towards convergence - which means use on tablets and smartphones - so it means UI compromises with small screens. I don't know how that affects multiple desktops and desktop images. I know that the KDE team tried to kill such functionality in KDE and met mass protest so clearly causes major problems for the KDE team and I suspect they are willing to take on the backlash this time because they have to get the code right for convergence. I am not saying I am a big fan of convergence and, so far, nobody has managed to succeed with it or, insofar as there has been any success it has been by making laptops behave like smartphones. I am just saying that I know where KDE are going with this.


Of course, if the KDE really do the route of Unity or GNOME 3 then I will be looking at Cinnamon more closely. But, for now, I don't see that happening. Plasma 5 looks like a 2D version of 4 - with an eye on tablets - but hasn't made many concessions on the desktop for mobile devices, unlike everyone else who has gone for the Holy Grail of convergence. But there will be code compromises in Plasma 5 and some sacrifices for on the desktop for mobile. So far I am glad the effect is so little. There won't be any spectacular new functionality in Plasma 5 for the desktop because that's not where KDE is going with this.

Just putting it in perspective. I can’t assess either Plasma 5 or Cinnamon until I get more time and laptops repaired so I have to stick to what works. So I can’t tell good or bad yet!
Mint Linux 18.0 64 bit KDE edition.
Video editing (AMV's mainly) on a dual core n2840 atom!
Results here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5Dw91 ... yVKS7X1Rlg
LOOK HERE FOR MY DEMO OF MINT LINUX KDE - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8hDYiGprWs
DeMus

Re: KDE,-- possibly best choice?

Post by DeMus »

I am a KDE user for several years, just like you I started with the Gnome 3 and Unity debacle. I did not use KDE3 but started with, I guess, 4.4.
It took some time to get used to simply because I was so used to use Gnome 2.x and suddenly everything was different: Nautilus became Dolphin, Ctrl-H became Atl-.
But I learned to use it and I love it, the way it works, the way it looks, no other DE can compete with that.

In several VM's I have used distro's with KDE 5, even until 5.7 and I love it more and more. I normally just stay with the default themes because they somehow work for me. I try to use more and more KDE programs although some of them are still a bridge too far, like Kmail which should replace Thunderbird and I am a bit afraid to do that since I use POP3 mail. Not being able to see all my old mail anymore would be a disaster.

KDE changed the way virtual desktops work in 4 but they have a replacement, something which has always been there: Activities. It is not that different from virtual desktops. Just use them, learn it and you'll see it is quite nice.
To be honest I would like to have a distro like Mint KDE with KDE 5.x as my main distro so I can get the full potential from using it, something a VM sometimes can not do.
I have tried OpenSuse Leap 42.1 and although it works great, it is a bit slow. With everything you do there is a waiting time between the mouse-click or key-press and the action it starts. That is a shame because it is rock-solid.
At the moment I use SolydK which is based on Debian and since Debian is not ready for KDE5 yet I guess it will be a long time before I make the switch, or I should get a different distro. I guess the last. Sorry Schoelje.
Jedinovice
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Re: KDE,-- possibly best choice?

Post by Jedinovice »

DeMus wrote: At the moment I use SolydK which is based on Debian and since Debian is not ready for KDE5 yet I guess it will be a long time before I make the switch, or I should get a different distro. I guess the last. Sorry Schoelje.
Have you considered Neon?

Just enquiring.
Mint Linux 18.0 64 bit KDE edition.
Video editing (AMV's mainly) on a dual core n2840 atom!
Results here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5Dw91 ... yVKS7X1Rlg
LOOK HERE FOR MY DEMO OF MINT LINUX KDE - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8hDYiGprWs
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Dngrsone
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Re: KDE,-- possibly best choice?

Post by Dngrsone »

Broken Canoe wrote: While KDE 4.x was excellent, 5.x hasn't lived up to my what I had hoped it would be, because of many small regressions that end up accumulating to make your workflow difficult. In the end, I switched to XFCE which does what I need it to do.
I appear to be poised to do the same. Now that 18 xfce is out, I will at least start playing with it.
Try politeness; people will like you for it.
DeMus

Re: KDE,-- possibly best choice?

Post by DeMus »

Jedinovice wrote:Have you considered Neon?

Just enquiring.
I have tried it in a VM but it crashed too often so I erased it. Plus, and I know I will get a lot of comment now, Neon is also based on Ubuntu, just like Mint. I chose SolydK which is like LMDE, but with the KDE desktop, and only based on Debian. So no Ubuntu way of doing this, no ppa possibilities which I don't need: I have installed a lot of programs and all of them from the standard Debian and/or SolydK repo's.
SolydK uses by default the evolvere icon-theme which I like, is solid and pretty fast so what more do you want? Well, maybe KDE5 when a distro I like starts using it.
thom_A
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Re: KDE,-- possibly best choice?

Post by thom_A »

Debian-based distros can't run appimages or portable apps. A huge deal breaker for people who use Krita and Blender whose latest builds are in portable form. Even these apps' (Blender and Krita) devs don't use Debian-based distros. One Krita developer openly says she uses Ubuntu, another famous Blender dev recommends Xubuntu. (Krita and Blender users probably know who they are.) So there's zero interest for me to go for Solydk or any debian-based distro. Zero. And I prefer Mint (KDE/Xfce.) It works for me. That's important.
Jedinovice
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Re: KDE,-- possibly best choice?

Post by Jedinovice »

thom_A wrote:Debian-based distros can't run appimages or portable apps. A huge deal breaker for people who use Krita and Blender whose latest builds are in portable form. Even these apps' (Blender and Krita) devs don't use Debian-based distros. One Krita developer openly says she uses Ubuntu, another famous Blender dev recommends Xubuntu. (Krita and Blender users probably know who they are.) So there's zero interest for me to go for Solydk or any debian-based distro. Zero. And I prefer Mint (KDE/Xfce.) It works for me. That's important.
Fair enough. Clearly the needs of DeMus are different. As he says, he does not need PPA's and the like.

Me? I need PPA's for Kdenlive and media codecs. I had a nightmare where, for a while, no media app in Mint would read webm files! Got an updated VLC player and got my first step towards webm handling.
Mint Linux 18.0 64 bit KDE edition.
Video editing (AMV's mainly) on a dual core n2840 atom!
Results here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5Dw91 ... yVKS7X1Rlg
LOOK HERE FOR MY DEMO OF MINT LINUX KDE - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8hDYiGprWs
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kdemeoz
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Re: KDE,-- possibly best choice?

Post by kdemeoz »

kdemeoz wrote:FYI.

Kubuntu x64 16.04.1 KDE Plasma 5.5.5: <<snip>>. I then let it download & install 6 flagged updates. This was & remains a disaster; Kubuntu is now completely unusable, & i've given up on it. Post-updates, Plasma5 constantly crashes [screen entirely black]; the OS is now utterly unusable, & multiple restarts don't help. What garbage!!

Fedora x64 24 KDE Plasma 5.6.4: <<snip>> EDIT -- 3 hours later. Fedora KDE has just finished downloading & installing over 600 updates. I noticed that its KDE Plasma is now 5.7.1... but it still doesn't let me have individual VD wallpapers & widgets like my current Mint 17.3 KDE4.
I managed to finally get Kubuntu to play-nice again a few days ago, ie, stop the constant Plasma crash that gave me continuous black screens. I didn't do anything special or intelligent, just kept stubbornly rebooting the VM everytime i saw black, & eventually it blinked before i did & stopped crashing [it's almost like that batch of 6 updates broke something & needed to be hammered into place by the multiple reboots]. I immediately forced it to check for new updates, & after those were finished it behaved pretty well for the rest of that day. Its Plasma sadly remains only 5.5.5. Just now i woke up the VM again & checked for more updates; it installed another batch & hasn't [yet] crashed, but its Plasma obstinately remains 5.5.5.

I've also forced my Fedora 24 KDE VM to install the latest updates. Since i last posted [above], its Plasma had jumped from 5.7.1 to 5.7.3, but after this morn's latest updates it hasn't further increased.

Comparing these 2 VMs, Fedora's implementation of Plasma 5 has so far been consistently "less bad" than Kubuntu's, most obviously wrt stability, but also wrt aesthetics [i dislike both's "look & feel" MUCH more than my Mint 17.3 KDE 4.14, but of the two, F is better than K]. I cannot tell if that's due to the underlying F vs K bases, or due to K's Plasma being stuck on 5.5.5 compared to F's much later variant.

I've now played about on both of them with Activities & Widgets. Whilst i continue to bemoan the loss of individual VD customisability in going from KDE 4 to 5. i'm happy that Desktop Grid remains, which is a really vast benefit of KDE for me over other DE alternatives. i think now i've got myself to the point where i will probably be able to stay with KDE once Mint 18 is out; that view is informed coz in parallel with my recent Plasma 5 VM experiments, i've been playing with new VMs i created for Mint 18 Cinnamon, MATE & Xfce.

XFCE does allow different wallpapers; my tests confirmed this in my Mint 18 Xfce VM, so that's good. Mint 18 MATE doesn't. Also, neither of those has a similar function to KDE's "Show Desktop Grid" [that i could find]**, & despite theoretically being configurable in Dconf-Editor, neither's Session Save/Restore works correctly/reliably [another big KDE 4 benefit for me]. I also tested Mint 18 Cinnamon in another VM; it does have a good equivalent to KDE's "Show Desktop Grid", but it cannot have different wallpapers on each Workspace, & it does not support Session Save/Restore at all.

Hence overall, i've still not found anything nearly as comprehensively good as Mint 17.3 KDE4.

** Xfce's Desktop Manager allows Compiz as an option, & Compiz seems to have lots of functions like KDE's KWin, including this desired function. However i can't get Compiz to work at all in the VM; i assume for the same reason as Mint KDE's KWin special effects also largely don't work in a VM. To properly test this, & thus gauge Xfce's possible candidature as a KDE replacement, i'd need to actually install it onto my SSD. Hmmmm...


.......................................................................................
My on-SSD OS = Linux Mint x64 17.3 KDE 4.14.2.
Manjaro KDE 5.15.x [Mint 17.x KDE4 2014-2016]
thom_A
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Re: KDE,-- possibly best choice?

Post by thom_A »

kdemeoz wrote:Hence overall, i've still not found anything nearly as comprehensively good as Mint 17.3 KDE4.
While everyone, including me, appreciate reviews like yours, I go where my needs are. I don't use workspaces, for instance, or activities, even on my laptop where they're needed the most, imho. I find that Xfce is all I need for my daily routines. It's simple and its file manager is more palatable than Cinnamon's, which is buggy, awkward and clumsy. The whole LMB/MMB dragging in Cinnamon's file manager is inconsistent and not even safe. I lost files because of it and only recovered them using a Windows recovery utility, which I've search on the internet. Also, unlike in Dolphin, you can't box select unless you're in compact view. I also like the idea of prompting you whether it's move or copy by LMB file/s dragging. There's no need for RMB or MMB dragging.

That's why I still need my Mint 17.3 KDE partition in my multi boot system, though, and it will stay for a long while. I like Dolphin and Kate. Dolphin got this cool feature no file manager has. And I use it when I need it, though rare. You hover your cursor to any video file and it will show you ample information about it, width/height, frame rate, etc.
snapshot2.png
Last edited by thom_A on Tue Aug 09, 2016 2:47 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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BG405
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Re: KDE,-- possibly best choice?

Post by BG405 »

thom_A wrote:Dolphin got this cool feature no file manager has. And I use it when I need it, though rare. You hover your cursor to any video file and it will show you ample information about it, width/height, frame rate, etc.
That's one of my favourite features of Dolphin and I wish it were also available in Cinnamon's Nemo (or Nautilus). Exactly the sort of information I need at-a-glance, so to speak. As well as easy navigation when moving, copying and saving stuff, which I also do a lot of, athough most of my directory creation and management is done using Konsole (or Terminal etc. in the other DEs).
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kdemeoz
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Re: KDE,-- possibly best choice?

Post by kdemeoz »

BG405 wrote:
thom_A wrote:Dolphin got this cool feature no file manager has. And I use it when I need it, though rare. You hover your cursor to any video file and it will show you ample information about it, width/height, frame rate, etc.
That's one of my favourite features of Dolphin and I wish it were also available in Cinnamon's Nemo (or Nautilus). Exactly the sort of information I need at-a-glance, so to speak. As well as easy navigation when moving, copying and saving stuff, which I also do a lot of, athough most of my directory creation and management is done using Konsole (or Terminal etc. in the other DEs).
Dolphin, as implemented natively in Mint KDE, is just fantastic; IMO it's far superior to all the other file managers. It doesn't however seem to translate well when manually installed in other distros &/or DEs. Root Actions i single out for particular praise: viewtopic.php?f=60&t=227300&p=1200366#p1200366
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Pepi
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Re: KDE,-- possibly best choice?

Post by Pepi »

So far not liking Mint 18 KDE beta :( Seems very buggy. May just stick to 17.3 KDE
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Jim Hauser
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Re: KDE,-- possibly best choice?

Post by Jim Hauser »

So far not liking Mint 18 KDE beta :( Seems very buggy. May just stick to 17.3 KDE
Well it is a Beta! I have my copy running on Virtual Box and that is where it will stay. When the 18.0 regular release comes out I will put that on Virtual Box for a while.

I will also read all I can in the forums about the release and when things settle down I might risk installing it on bare metal. The key is my backup files...

I can restore KDE 17.3 in under twenty minutes.

For me the Beta is running fine in Virtual Box... I have yet to see any glaring bugs (knock on wood...)

Cheers!

Jim
DeMus

Re: KDE,-- possibly best choice?

Post by DeMus »

Jim Hauser wrote:
So far not liking Mint 18 KDE beta :( Seems very buggy. May just stick to 17.3 KDE
Well it is a Beta! I have my copy running on Virtual Box and that is where it will stay. When the 18.0 regular release comes out I will put that on Virtual Box for a while.

I will also read all I can in the forums about the release and when things settle down I might risk installing it on bare metal. The key is my backup files...

I can restore KDE 17.3 in under twenty minutes.

For me the Beta is running fine in Virtual Box... I have yet to see any glaring bugs (knock on wood...)

Cheers!

Jim
So do I, nothing much going wrong. Just a little problem with Kontact which crashed one time, the rest runs smoothly.
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